[TV/Book Spoilers] PTV Unsullied Thread Part 8

[Benjaario Starkharis]

Fair enough, but I don't think that's the whole story. I get the impression that for whatever reason they're getting more and more narrow-minded. They hate the magical aspects of the story and they have since the beginning. As these things increase in prominence, so does their distaste for it. I also think, although they don't really say it openly, that some of them really dislike ASoIaF's/GoT's refusal to play by the book. They never truly recovered from the Slaughter of the Starks. They have these insanely well-thought-out theories on everything (which is cool) but that seems to leave them increasingly frustrated because they miss more often than not and then cry foul.

I really like Khal-a-bunga's observation that they are "missing both the forest and the trees" with their speculation.

Their problem is that they've created some kind of hive mind with their isolation. They rarely disagree with each other and when someone suggests something ridiculous for whatever reason, the others usually go along with it.

[ebevan91]

These guys keep letting me down. Now they think Jaime will be fighting FOR TYRION? Do they not realize that he is the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard?

[spork]

These guys keep letting me down. Now they think Jaime will be fighting FOR TYRION? Do they not realize that he is the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard?

Seriously. Only one poster has mentioned the possibility of a conflict of interests. See my post above.

[Independent George]

Fair enough, but I don't think that's the whole story. I get the impression that for whatever reason they're getting more and more narrow-minded. They hate the magical aspects of the story and they have since the beginning. As these things increase in prominence, so does their distaste for it. I also think, although they don't really say it openly, that some of them really dislike ASoIaF's/GoT's refusal to play by the book. They never truly recovered from the Slaughter of the Starks. They have these insanely well-thought-out theories on everything (which is cool) but that seems to leave them increasingly frustrated because they miss more often than not and then cry foul.

I disagree with this - they had no problem with MMD, or with the birth of the dragons, or the White Walkers. It wasn't until the shadowbaby in S2 that they had issue with the magic, and I think for very good reasons: there was no context for it whatsoever. The were unconsciously channeling Brandon Sanderson's first law of magics:

Sanderson’s First Law of Magics: An author’s ability to solve conflict with magic is DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL to how well the reader understands said magic.

...Fantasy doesn’t have to be about stories where the authors simply make up whatever they need. Still, I think that it is a criticism we fantasy writers need to be aware of and wary regarding. If we simply let ourselves develop new rules every time our characters are in danger, we will end up creating fiction that is not only unfulfilling and unexciting, but just plain bad.

...The really good writers of soft magic systems very, very rarely use their magic to solve problems in their books. Magic creates problems, then people solve those problems on their own without much magic. (George R. R. Martin’s “A Song of Fire and Ice” uses this paradigm quite effectively.)

As readers, we know more about the 'rules' than they do - but strictly in show terms, a lot of that was lost in the adaptation. There was no explanation of the shadowbaby - it just appeared out of nowhere, with no explanation of its limits, and then disappeared again with no explanation of why Mel didn't just summon another dozen to kill all of her enemies. Add to this the unfortunate implications of an evil vag monster killing a white-hat (on the show at least), and, well, I think they actually had a legitimate gripe. The same applies to the Reeds - they appeared out of nowhere, the only information we have about them comes from them.

They're less versed in fantasy, but extremely well versed in other dramatic and literary tropes, which means they analyze it in the exact same way. I don't want them to love the show unconditionally - I think they're right to demand more. If a plot or character point is weak or unearned, I want them to break it down and rant about why they thought it was weak or unearned. Read through the entertainment forums here on Westeros - they're every bit as merciless about GOT as we are about Lost or BSG, and I think that's exactly the way it should be. I love that they instantly picked up on all the holes in magic necklace conspiracy, and I love that they're picking up on the weaknesses in the Dany and Stannis storylines. As much as I love the show and the books, I think we're doing it a disservice if we're not holding it to the same standard as we do other shows.

[protar]

Fair enough, but I don't think that's the whole story. I get the impression that for whatever reason they're getting more and more narrow-minded. They hate the magical aspects of the story and they have since the beginning. As these things increase in prominence, so does their distaste for it. I also think, although they don't really say it openly, that some of them really dislike ASoIaF's/GoT's refusal to play by the book. They never truly recovered from the Slaughter of the Starks. They have these insanely well-thought-out theories on everything (which is cool) but that seems to leave them increasingly frustrated because they miss more often than not and then cry foul.

I really like Khal-a-bunga's observation that they are "missing both the forest and the trees" with their speculation.

I agree with that as well, but a lot of their specific complaints are about stuff that is a result of D+D's changes. For example not having Dontos explicitly tell Sansa to wear the necklace to the wedding, all the Theon torture that was offscreen in the books, Stannis being a villain who spends all his time moping on Dragonstone (he mopes in the books but it's all offscreen mostly.). And the Dragonknapping of course. There are a few odd exceptions, like for some reason they love Shae. So when they complain about those things, it kind of disproves the argument that only bookwalkers care about these things. But then I'm stuck with the frustrating knowledge that they think Martin is a bad writer.

On a related note, Larry Williams (youtube) has a really good eye for when things are changed from the books. His friends do let him know what's invented and what's not, but he also really picks up on them himself. He went off on quite the accurate tirade on Ros IIRC in S2 or S3.

[Spidey]

These guys keep letting me down. Now they think Jaime will be fighting FOR TYRION? Do they not realize that he is the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard?

Yeah. The vast majority of the Unsullied online seem to expect Jaime as Tyrion's champion. None of them have Oberyn vs. Gregor on their radar even though clips from the duel were in the trailers months ago.

[protar]

Yeah. The vast majority of the Unsullied online seem to expect Jaime as Tyrion's champion. None of them have Oberyn vs. Gregor on their radar even though clips from the duel were in the trailers months ago.

Well the PTV Unsullied don't watch trailers. And honestly hindsight is a big thing. We know that those shots are of Oberyn fighting Gregor but to an Unsullied it's just some guy they didn't know at the time twirling a spear.

[Independent George]

Besides which, have you seen some of the theories posted in the Novels section? The Unsullied as a whole seem much less crackpot than many of our readers.

[Haldebrandt]

Long time lurker in this thread, registered today to say the following:

There is entirely too much blame here for the Unsullied, and not not enough for the show runners -- or GRRM.

Virtually every frustration expressed by the Unsullied can be laid at the feet of the show. The Unsullied, especially the PTV crowd, are by far and away the best way to evaluate how the show comes across, and the gauge the weaknesses of both the show AND the books (e.g., the utterly ludicrous assassination plot).

Take magic: I am a fan of the books, have no problem with magic, yet more often than not, I hate the way it comes across in the show. Long ago I bet that they were gonna fuck up the shadow baby by focusing on FX instead of the feel of the scene, and that's exactly what happened (yet, had they done something more impressionistic, there would've been howls from fanboys who were drooling at how "amazing" the shadow baby was gonna look). Similarly, there was nothing scary or even impressive about the White Walker at the end of season 2. It was cheesy as hell.

Frankly, this place is frankly frustrating than the Unsullied because its filled with Bookwalkers who largely fail to recognize their own biases, and seem unable to understand that intentionally or not, the show conveys different things from the books. It's like you want the Unsullied to arrive at the exact same conclusions as you, based on a different material, and entirely on their own. Huh?

[Haldebrandt]

These guys keep letting me down. Now they think Jaime will be fighting FOR TYRION? Do they not realize that he is the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard?

Is the notion that Jaime might resign from the Kingsguard to defend his brother so crazy?

[Brewmaster]

Virtually every frustration expressed by the Unsullied can be laid at the feet of the show. The Unsullied, especially the PTV crowd, are by far and away the best way to evaluate how the show comes across, and the gauge the weaknesses of both the show AND the books (e.g., the utterly ludicrous assassination plot).

The PTV unsullied are only about 10 people and their views are drastically different than the majority of non-book readers that watch the show. How in the world are they the best measure to evaluate the show or the books?

[Independent George]

Is the notion that Jaime might resign from the Kingsguard to defend his brother so crazy?

Plus, is this less crazy than the Jojen Paste theory? Or Darkstar actually being Rhaegar? Or Jon being Ned and Lyanna's incestuous love-child? Or (F)Aegon being Rhaegar & Lyanna's child? All of those are actual theories I've read in the novels thread.

Even when they're wrong, the Unsullied (usually) reach their conclusions through logical trains of thought that are derailed by faulty assumptions or withheld information (such as their belief that the Iron Bank would support slavery - they have no backstory on Braavos, and given the links they've seen between Jaqen, the Red God, and Essos, it's a perfectly reasonable conclusion).

I find that infinitely more interesting than the more casual discussions, and prefer their much more critical eyes to the usual rah-rah support of the show. I watch sports the same way - when I watch my favorite teams play, I would rather listen to an honest dissection of their strengths and weaknesses than the boosterism of a homer.

[protar]

The PTV unsullied are only about 10 people and their views are drastically different than the majority of non-book readers that watch the show. How in the world are they the best measure to evaluate the show or the books?

They're probably the most attentive viewers of the show and are the first to pick up on the various plot holes which D+D leave in their wake. Virtually every time D+D changes something the Unsullied know something is up. They don't necessarily realise that stuff has been changed from the source material but the majority of their criticisms stem from the changes whether they know it or not. They're not representative of the entire fandom, but they certainly prove that you don't have to be a bookwalker to realise when something is wrong with the show.

[Brewmaster]

They're probably the most attentive viewers of the show and are the first to pick up on the various plot holes which D+D leave in their wake. Virtually every time D+D changes something the Unsullied know something is up. They don't necessarily realise that stuff has been changed from the source material but the majority of their criticisms stem from the changes whether they know it or not. They're not representative of the entire fandom, but they certainly prove that you don't have to be a bookwalker to realise when something is wrong with the show.

Not really true. That's a case of people identifying and placing prominence on their own opinions of things. Now, there are numerous changes between the book and the show, so it can be easy to place the blame on why they dislike something on the show changes, but it's a pretty inaccurate depiction.

Case in point, people are trying to twist their views from being one of being opposed to the magical elements to one of just being opposed to magical elements that have been changed. That's a pretty biased argument to make and not really reality. A number of these PTV/TWOP unsullied have flat out stated that they dislike the magical elements in the series and dislike how they are getting more numerous. They are more interested in "The Game of Thrones" setting as a non-magical setting.

I mean, arguing that they didn't like the Shadowbaby because of book/show changes is pretty ridiculous, IMO. It's a damn close interpretation of what happened in the book.

They also didn't dislike Ros, like book readers did.

Most liked Shae as a character (until Sunday's episode). And everything about her was a departure from the book.

They like Yara , who so far hasn't done anything the same as she did in the book (oh. except they didn't like the near incest that happens when her and Theon meet in season 1, which actually is from the book).

They dislike all the torture, by Ramsay and others, which some would argue is a show change- in reality its just been moved to a different location in the story instead of being told through Theon's flashbacks.

They dislike the rape, and threats of rape, some of which has been from the book and some of which has been new.

They dislike Littlefinger being behind everything, which is true to the book so far.

They like Arya & the Hound together, which is a mix of changes along side the book.

They dislike that it feels like violence porn where the bad guys always win. Which is the same as the book

Saying it's the changes from the book, at this point, is a major cop-out IMO. Because of the butterfly effect you could certainly make the argument that basically anything is a "departure" in some sense. It's a classic fallacy though, as you can't say that if they don't like something, they would like it if it happened as it did in the book. It would be just as easy for me to make the inverse argument, but it's a lazy argument. Because of this same butterfly effect, just as much (actually more) of what they like are scenes/dialogue that are not in the book. However, that doesn't make the argument true that they like it because it's changed from the book.

[protar]

Not really true. That's a case of people identifying and placing prominence on their own opinions of things. Now, there are numerous changes between the book and the show, so it can be easy to place the blame on why they dislike something on the show changes, but it's a pretty inaccurate depiction.

Case in point, people are trying to twist their views from being one of being opposed to the magical elements to one of just being opposed to magical elements that have been changed. That's a pretty biased argument to make and not really reality. A number of these PTV/TWOP unsullied have flat out stated that they dislike the magical elements in the series and dislike how they are getting more numerous. They are more interested in "The Game of Thrones" setting as a non-magical setting.

I mean, arguing that they didn't like the Shadowbaby because of book/show changes is pretty ridiculous, IMO. It's a damn close interpretation of what happened in the book.

They also didn't dislike Ros, like book readers did.

Most liked Shae as a character (until Sunday's episode). And everything about her was a departure from the book.

They like Yara , who so far hasn't done anything the same as she did in the book (oh. except they didn't like the near incest that happens when her and Theon meet in season 1, which actually is from the book).

They dislike all the torture, by Ramsay and others, which some would argue is a show change- in reality its just been moved to a different location in the story instead of being told through Theon's flashbacks.

They dislike the rape, and threats of rape, some of which has been from the book and some of which has been new.

They dislike Littlefinger being behind everything, which is true to the book so far.

They like Arya & the Hound together, which is a mix of changes along side the book.

They dislike that it feels like violence porn where the bad guys always win. Which is the same as the book

Saying it's the changes from the book, at this point, is a major cop-out IMO. Because of the butterfly effect you could certainly make the argument that basically anything is a "departure" in some sense. It's a classic fallacy though, as you can't say that if they don't like something, they would like it if it happened as it did in the book. It would be just as easy for me to make the inverse argument, but it's a lazy argument. Because of this same butterfly effect, just as much (actually more) of what they like are scenes/dialogue that are not in the book. However, that doesn't make the argument true that they like it because it's changed from the book.

• Some of the Unsullied dislike the magical elements and that's going to make them rather unhappy by the final season I expect. I'll admit to that.

I don't really remember any great like for Ros. A lot of people thought she was useless IIRC.

Shae I will concede. They like Shae for some reason. Baffling but true.

Yara has mostly done what she's done in the books until this week's episode which they didn't like.

The on screen torture is entirely an invention of D+D and to say otherwise is ridiculous. The books leave most of the torture to the imagination. And there is a huge difference between flashbacks of torture sown throughout plot relevant chapters, and entire scenes of nothing but torture.

They dislike LF being behind everything because D+D made his plots more convoluted than they were in the books. It doesn't make as much sense that LF could have orchestrated all that he did, especially the assassination of Joffrey.

Arya and the Hound is from the books. There have been invented scenes of that plot (same as all the plots) but to credit D+D for that is ridiculous.

And I most certainly don't think the books are "violence porn where the bad guys always win." I don't think it of the show either, though the show has definitely upped the gratuity of the nudity.

To me, it seems pretty clear that most of the PTV Unsullied's complaints (with a few notable exceptions) are based on D+D's changes. They don't hate all of the changes, but there isn't much straight from the book that they dislike. And certainly none of the outright plot holes they've pointed out have been from the books.

[Independent George]

They're probably the most attentive viewers of the show and are the first to pick up on the various plot holes which D+D leave in their wake. Virtually every time D+D changes something the Unsullied know something is up. They don't necessarily realise that stuff has been changed from the source material but the majority of their criticisms stem from the changes whether they know it or not. They're not representative of the entire fandom, but they certainly prove that you don't have to be a bookwalker to realise when something is wrong with the show.

I have to disagree here - I think you're too fixated on book vs show, and projecting your own opinions on to them.

The biggest gripe they have this season is the poison necklace plot, which is taken straight from the book. Likewise, the problem with Shae isn't the changes from the book in S2-S3, but the attempt to change her back now. Had they portrayed Shae the way she was depicted in the books, they likely would have hated her from the beginning instead of liking her until this season. (It also would have telegraphed her betrayal)

The problem isn't whether something was changed by D&D, but whether it makes internal sense within the show. The most important thing is the context of their discussions - on what basis are they making their latest statement? Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong, and sometimes they're so out there that you can't even really judge. But almost always, there's a logical basis to the discussion.

[bobbybuilderton]

The necklace poisoning is only an issue because they failed to set up a similar poison and because she wasn't told to wear it on the day of the wedding. So it both comes out of nowhere and is left entirely up to chance. In addition to them being up on a pedestal in front of everyone making it hard to believe Olenna put it in without being noticed. The IDEA is the same but they handled it differently enough that it was pretty much entirely stupid. If it was the same as the book it might still be risky but the way it was done in the show made it unbelievable. It was a convoluted plan either way, but it requires greater suspension of disbelief in the show, imo. Plus a hairnet makes more sense as far as Sansa not realizing something was missing. You look more like a huge imbecile if you fail to notice a huge gem is missing from your necklace. Especially with someone as preoccupied with finery and songs and knights as Sansa was.

TL;DR---necklace plot was received poorly because it was more haphazard in the show, not because of the idea itself.

[Mr Fixit]

I don't really remember any great like for Ros. A lot of people thought she was useless IIRC

As far as I can remember, they did like Ros.

As for Littlefinger's role in everything, all of it is straight from the books: murdering Jon Arryn, implicating Tyrion in the attempt on Bran's life, collaborating with Tyrells, etc.

[Brewmaster]

To me, it seems pretty clear that most of the PTV Unsullied's complaints (with a few notable exceptions) are based on D+D's changes. They don't hate all of the changes, but there isn't much straight from the book that they dislike. And certainly none of the outright plot holes they've pointed out have been from the books.

It seems obvious to you, because you are projecting your own opinions, knowing the books, and selectively choosing what to pick out from their conversations. I don't have time to reach through all 300 pages of Unsullied talk on the TWOP forum that predates the 16 pages on PTV, but you will certainly find stuff straight from the book that they hate and feel are plotholes (whether they are or not). Things like:

Littlefinger being behind the major plots

Shadowbaby

Excessive Violence

Not enough triumphant moments for "good guys" & not enough comeuppance for "bad guys"

The slowness of Dany's return to Westeros & how separate from the rest of the story she is.

This isn't meant to be a comprehensive, or even meant to spark any conversation about any individual points they may have. Just a couple that they've recently brought up that are not significantly different from the book. My point is that, literally every scene has changes from the book at this point, due to the butterfly effect. In may be major, it may be minor, but there are some differences. It's even to the point that things that are taken "straight from the book" people are claiming is totally different (i.e.- Shadowbaby, Joff's poisoning, etc.) because of very minor changes.

So, you can point to literally anything they dislike and claim it's because of differences to the source material. Likewise, you could point to anything they like and claim it's because of differences to the source material.

Neither statement is true.

[protar]

As far as I can remember, they did like Ros.

As for Littlefinger's role in everything, all of it is straight from the books: murdering Jon Arryn, implicating Tyrion in the attempt on Bran's life, collaborating with Tyrells, etc.

LF is orchestrating everything, but I would argue it is a lot more credible in the books. Firstly they change a few details from the poisoning plot, like Sansa not knowing when to wear the necklace, and Olenna risking killing her granddaughter. Secondly LF is a completely unsubtle mustache twirling villain on the show, it's not nearly as credible that he could have gotten away with all this.

The complaints they have based on the book seem to be split into two main categories. The increased use of magic, and Dany's slow return to Westeros. Everything else, most noticeably pointing out outright plot holes are based on changes that D+D have made.