Heresy 110

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 110, this week’s edition of the thread that takes a sideways look what’s really going in the Song of Ice and Fire.

Heresy started off nearly two and a half years ago as The Wall the Watch and a Heresy, questioning the assumptions that the Wall and the Watch were created to keep the Others at bay and that its all going to finish up with Jon Snow being identified as Azor Ahai and riding a fire-breathing dragon to victory over the icy hordes.

Like Topsy it has since grewed. The scepticism is still here but in general terms it has expanded to encompass the whole business of Ice and Fire [as distinct from the Game of Thrones], still concentrating on the Wall, what lies beyond it and the Stark connection to Winter, but striving at the same time to understand the conflict as a whole.

Beyond that there is no such thing as a heretic view on a particular topic, rather heresy is about questioning common assumptions and discussing the various possible outcomes, based either on clues in the text itself, or in identifying GRRM’s own sources and inspirations, ranging from Celtic and Norse mythology all the way through to Narnia. Nor is it a matter of agreeing a particular viewpoint and then defending it against all comers, and in fact the fiercest critics of some of the ideas discussed on these pages are our fellow heretics.

To the uninitiated, stepping into our world might at first appear confusing, but what we are really engaged in is an exercise in chaos theory. While most threads concentrate on a particular issue or theory, we range pretty widely and more or less in free-fall, to try and reach an understanding of what may be happening through the resulting collision of ideas.

A little more controversially we also look closely at what’s being revealed in the show. While its argued and quite rightly that the show is “different”, its differences necessarily arise through the translation from a written to a visual medium. Compromises have to be made, but at the same time some things implicit in the book [such as Craster’s sacrifice] are rendered explicit on the screen, and just as importantly the process of trimming the story to fit provides pointers to the truly important stuff. Thus far there hasn’t been too much of interest in the present series, but the upcoming episode appears to involve the blue-eyed lot from up north and perhaps an explanation of what Rast is doing and why:

“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

In the run-up to HERESY 100 Mace Cooterian very kindly organised a Centennial Seven project, looking at seven major topics in Heresy, featuring a specially commissioned introductory essay followed by a whole thread concentrating on that one topic. A link to Heresy 100 follows, in which will be found updated essays on the Seven, with a bonus essay on the Crows: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/105138-heresy-100/. Links are also provided at the end of each essay to the relevant discussions, and for those made of sterner stuff we also have a link to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy. Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy. It has been running for over two years now but we’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask.

Otherwise, all that we do ask of you as ever is that you observe the house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

[Eira Seren]

Can't wait to see how things go down at Craster's keep this week. Will the NW get there to discover the WW have overrun the place?

[Black Crow]

If we do get a hodor chapter, I'd guess that it would actually be a bran POV, kind of like how we got 'the blind girl' chapter with Ayra's POV. A Hodor chapter would end up being a Bran POV in which bran spends the entire chapter skinchanging hodor. Perhaps Hodor will be the character to go to the lands of always winter?

I don't think we'll go to the Land of Always Winter with Hodor, I think that's going to need someone with Winter inside them, hence the possible significance of the snowflake communion mentioned earlier, but we'll have to see.

I have a recollection that GRRM did say that there is a reason for the "Hodor" business [his real name after all is Walder] but was properly coy as to what it is. The best guess so far is that its an allusion to Hodr, but we'll have to see

[Black Crow]

Can't wait to see how things go down at Craster's keep this week. Will the NW get there to discover the WW have overrun the place?

The other way around I think. The Watch [or at least the mutineers] are already there and we've seen that clip of Rast doing a Craster, so I'd say the sons are going to come visiting. How it actually works out remains to be seen but I'm pretty confident we're going to get something very interesting out of it.

[Eira Seren]

The other way around I think. The Watch [or at least the mutineers] are already there and we've seen that clip of Rast doing a Craster, so I'd say the sons are going to come visiting. How it actually works out remains to be seen but I'm pretty confident we're going to get something very interesting out of it.

So the question will be, is Rast's baby acceptable tribute. . .

Maybe they will get Karl first, though I rather like Burn Gorman.

See y'all tomorrow.

[Black Crow]

So the question will be, is Rast's baby acceptable tribute. . .

Maybe they will get Karl first, though I rather like Burn Gorman.

See y'all tomorrow.

I think that's what's going to be interesting.

There has to be a reason for Rast carrying out the sacrifice, so...

1. Is this because the women tell him that the sons are coming and that he has to do it to avoid upsetting them

or

2. Is this the aftermath of a visit by the sons with only Rast left alive and condemned to be the next Craster

Either way we're going to get some explanations. Lets face it at some point in the story we're going to find out who the Others are and I'd suspect a show audience needs to be brought up to speed sooner rather than later, especially as we're about to be introduced to the Singers in this series

[avernite]

In the interest of my own curiosity, and in light of whatever new information arose since it was last discussed here:

What if the Wall and NW really were meant to guard the realms of men?

Now, let me specify: I think GRRM has made clear the Others are no ultimate evil or anything - but that proves nothing. Men had been beaten hard by the Others in the Long Night, and they were bound to want them gone. With the stories of Dany-the-liberator showing how good intentions can still lead to horrible conflict, I would be tempted to think the Others, too, are not evil; they just can't live together with men very well.

The Night's King would then not be the last LC trying to uphold the true purpose of the NW - he would be the diplomat trying to end the conflict and bring peace between Others and men, and failing - so the NW goes back to its original purpose: defending men from Others.

How does this fit the obvious data? Well, we know the Wall used to have only a single fort. Supposing the Wall is really a magical barrier, this makes some sense: the Others can't pass, so you may need a few guys to check the Wall is intact and there's no big Other plot working to bring it down, but you don't need to constantly patrol every stretch of it.

The new forts are from a later time, when the Wildlings and North had a falling out (over the Andals, or because the Others were away so they lost their common foe). Against men that can climb the Wall, regular patrols might be necessary, and for that you want shelter along the patrol route. The Wall, turned from a magic barrier against Others to an armed frontier against Wildlings. Soon, however, it probably became clear that was overdoing it - the Wildlings were not strong enough to continue a full-scale war, and the North could defend itself with a tripwire NW and its armies gathering to crush the Wildlings south of the Wall.

What I cannot explain is how the NW ever forgot its seeming prime weapon against the Others, being Obsidian. I can think of reasons for that: A) the Others are vulnerable, but the Wights are not - so an army armed with Obsidian would be able to kill the officers, but not the grunts, of the Other army. B ) Handwaving; the Watch has to not-know the obvious answer to Others for the Others to be relevant. C) Iron is an excellent tool to kill humans, but so are bronze and steel. Likewise, there may be other weapons against Others; if so, Others suddenly seem like a much less 'oh my gods how could we ever forget Obsidian?' and more like a 'oh yeah, not everything works against these guys... but then, arrows don't work well against a Mammoth's thick fur and skin'.

Now, what this would mean is that the story can very well end with the Others utterly beaten, or the Wall staying up. Bit of a letdown if the latter, but the former would fit a theme explored in other literature: magic is fading, and we witness its last hurrah. Dany's Dragons are the last who will ever live, the Others will be eradicated, and soon the Giants, Children and Mammoths will follow them. This story is not about magic fading, however: it is about Magic fighting back for its last chance to live - but in the world men have made there is no place for magic, and so the war cannot end until most men or all of magic are destroyed utterly. Marwyn and the Direwolves are as much the enemy as Dragons and Others - and, in due time, this means the Starks must lose their wolves and the Weirwoods lose their seers. How's that for bittersweet endings?

Now, my argument is rambling at times, and all that, but then the goal of this thread is to sharpen our thoughts - maybe to conclude my premise is wrong, maybe to conclude that this is just one other angle in the story...

[Urrax2]

.... B) Handwaving; the Watch has to not-know the obvious answer to Others for the Others to be relevant. C) Iron ...

To make a B ) or a ( b ) you have to put in a space, otherwise it turns into a smiley B)

[Blade of Sunlight]

Hmm, given that the Others are widely believed to be nothing but a myth, and that thousand of years passed between the long night and the arrival of the Andals (and with them writing), it's believable that the NW doesn't remember their true purpose and the means to fight the others (which would only be important if they remembered the former), oral tradition is an unreliable way to transmit information...

Edit: IIRC they have a few very old books that reference the subject (the ones Sam reads) but even those were written long after the last sight of the others, and few of them still remain.

[avernite]

Hmm, given that the Others are widely believed to be nothing but a myth, and that thousand of years passed between the long night and the arrival of the Andals (and with them writing), it's believable that the NW doesn't remember their true purpose and the means to fight the others (which would only be important if they remembered the former), oral tradition is an unreliable way to transmit information...

Edit: IIRC they have a few very old books that reference the subject (the ones Sam reads) but even those were written long after the last sight of the others, and few of them still remain.

While that's true, oral traditions often seem to remember there was 'some' special way to kill something. We may disagree how killing a vampire is done, but we all know it's something special (garlic, stakes, silver, holy water, beheading...)

[Blade of Sunlight]

While that's true, oral traditions often seem to remember there was 'some' special way to kill something. We may disagree how killing a vampire is done, but we all know it's something special (garlic, stakes, silver, holy water, beheading...)

That true, everyone seems to remember the Others to some degree but nobody seems to remember what kills them, that maybe because you can kill them with steel, it might just be nearly impossible (i assume if you put an WW through a wood-chipper they would die).

Edit [ it is known that dragonglass kills the others (it's even written in the books), possibly the legend that derived from this knowledge change dragonglass into sword of fire (the smalfolk probably don't know much about it and the former is more simple.

It's also interesting to find why the COTF stopped giving dragonglass to the NW if they knew how important it wold be, maybe because their number were already dwindling and they were all north of the wall they stopped caring if the other came south ]

I find it strange that none of the Stark children remember any stories about the WW, given that Old Nan was with them most of their lives, appears to remember the old tale and likes to share them. Maybe she was stopped by Maester Luwin, and/or the children spent more time in the yard or with the septa...

As for the NW, it appears some people still remember obsidian since IIRC Jon/Ghost find obsidian wrapped with a black cloak (probably of a member of the NW). Though it might be hundreds/thousands of years old (if you believe the old warhorn is the Horn of Winter).

[Urrax2]

Off topic:

The next few weeks I'll be where TV HBO is not available and will have to watch the show on HBOGO on my computer. Does anyone know how soon after first broadcast they post an episode on HBOGO?

[Harlan]

As for the NW, it appears some people still remember obsidian since IIRC Jon/Ghost find obsidian wrapped with a black cloak (probably of a member of the NW). Though it might be hundreds/thousands of years old (if you believe the old warhorn is the Horn of Winter).

The obsidian and horn may be ancient, but the cache was buried very shortly before the NW got to the fist. The only info we have about how old the cache is comes from the following....

He let them fall, and pulled up a corner of the cloth the weapons had been wrapped in, rubbing it between his fingers. Good wool, thick, a double weave, damp but not rotted. It could not have been long in the ground. And it was dark. He seized a handful and pulled it close to the torch. Not dark. Black.

AFAIK, there are only 2 people who could have been in a position to bury the cache, and one of them makes no sense. It could have been either Benjen, or Coldhands. Of the two, coldhands seems the more likely....

[Black Crow]

In the interest of my own curiosity, and in light of whatever new information arose since it was last discussed here:

What if the Wall and NW really were meant to guard the realms of men?

Now, let me specify: I think GRRM has made clear the Others are no ultimate evil or anything - but that proves nothing. Men had been beaten hard by the Others in the Long Night, and they were bound to want them gone. With the stories of Dany-the-liberator showing how good intentions can still lead to horrible conflict, I would be tempted to think the Others, too, are not evil; they just can't live together with men very well.

The Night's King would then not be the last LC trying to uphold the true purpose of the NW - he would be the diplomat trying to end the conflict and bring peace between Others and men, and failing - so the NW goes back to its original purpose: defending men from Others.

How does this fit the obvious data? Well, we know the Wall used to have only a single fort. Supposing the Wall is really a magical barrier, this makes some sense: the Others can't pass, so you may need a few guys to check the Wall is intact and there's no big Other plot working to bring it down, but you don't need to constantly patrol every stretch of it.

The new forts are from a later time, when the Wildlings and North had a falling out (over the Andals, or because the Others were away so they lost their common foe). Against men that can climb the Wall, regular patrols might be necessary, and for that you want shelter along the patrol route. The Wall, turned from a magic barrier against Others to an armed frontier against Wildlings. Soon, however, it probably became clear that was overdoing it - the Wildlings were not strong enough to continue a full-scale war, and the North could defend itself with a tripwire NW and its armies gathering to crush the Wildlings south of the Wall.

What I cannot explain is how the NW ever forgot its seeming prime weapon against the Others, being Obsidian. I can think of reasons for that: A) the Others are vulnerable, but the Wights are not - so an army armed with Obsidian would be able to kill the officers, but not the grunts, of the Other army. B ) Handwaving; the Watch has to not-know the obvious answer to Others for the Others to be relevant. C) Iron is an excellent tool to kill humans, but so are bronze and steel. Likewise, there may be other weapons against Others; if so, Others suddenly seem like a much less 'oh my gods how could we ever forget Obsidian?' and more like a 'oh yeah, not everything works against these guys... but then, arrows don't work well against a Mammoth's thick fur and skin'.

Now, what this would mean is that the story can very well end with the Others utterly beaten, or the Wall staying up. Bit of a letdown if the latter, but the former would fit a theme explored in other literature: magic is fading, and we witness its last hurrah. Dany's Dragons are the last who will ever live, the Others will be eradicated, and soon the Giants, Children and Mammoths will follow them. This story is not about magic fading, however: it is about Magic fighting back for its last chance to live - but in the world men have made there is no place for magic, and so the war cannot end until most men or all of magic are destroyed utterly. Marwyn and the Direwolves are as much the enemy as Dragons and Others - and, in due time, this means the Starks must lose their wolves and the Weirwoods lose their seers. How's that for bittersweet endings?

Now, my argument is rambling at times, and all that, but then the goal of this thread is to sharpen our thoughts - maybe to conclude my premise is wrong, maybe to conclude that this is just one other angle in the story...

That's an interesting essay and broadly in line with a lot of other stuff we've been discussing. The knowledge gap is a significant one and all the more so because although we're given the impression that our characters know more than we do about quite a lot of things, we're pretty explicitly told that this stuff is unknown to our characters.

On balance and with particular reference to your second paragraph I really do think that we need to look at the two different scenarios; first the Wall not as a defensive structure but a magical demarcation line between the realms of men and the Otherlands beyond, with a controlled crossing point at the Nightfort. The Watch guarding this crossing point are familiar with the Others, whether they are on friendly terms or not, and its at this period that they receive the annual tribute of dragonglass from the Singers.

Then we have the overthrow of the Nights King. The survivors of the original Watch end up with their heads decorating spikes and the knowledge is lost. The Others and the Singers have withdrawn into the forests and the new Watch dedicate themselves to keeping the Wildlings at bay.

[Black Crow]

I find it strange that none of the Stark children remember any stories about the WW, given that Old Nan was with them most of their lives, appears to remember the old tale and likes to share them. Maybe she was stopped by Maester Luwin, and/or the children spent more time in the yard or with the septa...

They certainly know something about them, because when Old Nan starts telling the story of the last hero and refers to the white walkers, Bran corrects her by calling them the Others - thus revealing what Lord Mormont was talking about earlier.

[JNR]

What I cannot explain is how the NW ever forgot its seeming prime weapon against the Others, being Obsidian.

And it's not just the Watch; everybody forgot.

Old Nan clearly never passed on that element of the tale to the Stark kids, for instance. Jon had no clue.

My own conclusion is that the North's original slogan was "the North forgets."

The new slogan -- "the North remembers" -- happened because the true slogan was forgotten (because the North forgets, and forgot it).

[Black Crow]

Forgot what...? :lol:

[King of Winters]

And it's not just the Watch; everybody forgot.

Old Nan clearly never passed on that element of the tale to the Stark kids, for instance. Jon had no clue.

My own conclusion is that the North's original slogan was "the North forgets."

The new slogan -- "the North remembers" -- happened because the true slogan was forgotten (because the North forgets, and forgot it).

I think it be connected with the Night's King when he was disposed of and the NW was changed.

[Blade of Sunlight]

Now, what this would mean is that the story can very well end with the Others utterly beaten, or the Wall staying up. Bit of a letdown if the latter, but the former would fit a theme explored in other literature: magic is fading, and we witness its last hurrah. Dany's Dragons are the last who will ever live, the Others will be eradicated, and soon the Giants, Children and Mammoths will follow them. This story is not about magic fading, however: it is about Magic fighting back for its last chance to live - but in the world men have made there is no place for magic, and so the war cannot end until most men or all of magic are destroyed utterly. Marwyn and the Direwolves are as much the enemy as Dragons and Others - and, in due time, this means the Starks must lose their wolves and the Weirwoods lose their seers. How's that for bittersweet endings?

I like your idea, but even if they all died in battle, the only way to assure magic would't come back would be if there was a primordial source of magic that could be destroyed, otherwise you couldn't guarantee that there would be no more skinchangers, no more dragon eggs would hatch, or that small time magic (like Maggy the frog) would disappear.

My own conclusion is that the North's original slogan was "the North forgets."

The new slogan -- "the North remembers" -- happened because the true slogan was forgotten (because the North forgets, and forgot it).

:rofl: Priceless

[JNR]

I think it be connected with the Night's King when he was disposed of and the NW was changed.

Possibly, but if you buy the chronology of that story, it would have been decades after the Long Night... meaning decades in which the idea "obsidian kills Others" would have spread throughout the North. Which we can imagine would have been of intense interest after the mass slaughter said to have been conducted by the Others.

It's also notable to me that both the wildlings and the crannogmen mock the North for its absentmindedness, claiming to retain forgotten knowledge.

I think it would be interesting to hear a Tormund/Mance/Jojen/Meera discussion. They could spend hours chuckling over the North and the way it has spent thousands of years trying to remember where it put its sandwich and whether it turned off the gas before leaving the house.