[Book Spoilers] EP404 Discussion

[starki]

None of what you have listed has any bearing whatsoever on the theory. Everything you have listed indicates that you have trouble envisioning what comes next should the theory be correct...which is different than the theory itself. Hate the theory all you want, but none of the misgivings you presented argue against it in a meaningful way.

I think it does, all of it.

I definitely have trouble envisioning conforming what we know about Jon with the allegedly obvious R+J theory. Another argument is it comes off as a soap opera ending. edit : and the biggest of all is it undermines Daenerys's whole story, as well as Aegon's.

Edited May 3, 2014 by starki

[starki]

Edited May 3, 2014 by starki

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

That was a great episode, one of the best so far. The ending was incredibly well done, so suspenseful and thought-provoking. The Margaery-Tommen scene was legendary. I think there's no male on here that can't relate to poor Tommen!

The Littlefinger-Sansa scene was great. Littlefinger gave Sansa 2 reasons for killing Joffrey - to be unpredicable to confuse his opponents; and to get rid of a crazy unreliable ally.

But I am sure there was a 3rd and very important reason that he didn't tell - to kill Tyrion and make Sansa single again. He knew Tyrion would get blamed (especially with Sansa missing). Even though Littlefinger says he wants everything, what he really wants is Sansa-Cat. That is his prime motivation and his fatal flaw. I wonder if Sansa can figure that out.

Remember Littlefinger was ready to die for love when he challenged Brandon Stark. That type of passion does not fade.

Great effing show!!! Love it!!! :)

[Dany's Silver]

If Jon was illegitimate, then 3 KG would not protect him at ToJ instead of the rightful king Viserys III in Dragonstone.

Robb thought that all his siblings except Sansa were dead. Besides, Jon is not a Snow. He cannot legitimize Jon. Jon has a lot of foreshadowing to be the king.

GRRM said Jon is not dead. That means he is wounded and alive, most likely in a coma similar to Bran in AGoT.

I don't think this necessarily implies Ned is the father. Bran also saw Lyanna after this vision, which hints that Lyanna is the mother of Jon. Ghost is different than the other wolves in many ways. He is an outsider.

I thing that is Aegon you are referring to. Jon is already with us right from the beginning. He is a trueborn prince and king as foreshadowed in AGoT.

“Why aren’t you down in the yard?” Arya asked him.

He gave her a half smile. “Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes,” he said. “Any bruises they take in the practice yard must come from trueborn swords.”

Since we know that Joffrey is the bastard here, this makes Jon the young prince.

“Kings are a rare sight in the north.”

Robert snorted. “More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!” The king put one hand on the wall to steady himself as they descended.

King Jon is hiding under the Snow (identity). Also note that the king puts one hand to the wall. This symbolizes Jon going to the Wall.

Bingo!

I do, however, think that while Jon doesn't remain dead, he will die in order to be released from his vows to the NW (making it possible for him to take on the role of The Prince Who Was Promised).

That's some awesome foreshadowing you pointed out. :D

We're basing events in WoW and book 7 based on a prequel story ?

I provided that bit because you seemed to have a problem with the wedding photos of Jon & Dany. I also wanted to point out that GRRM has recently confirmed that Targaryens not only wed brother to sister, but other relations married one another as well. These prequels are not standalone stories. They do serve a purpose in the larger ASOIAF. The Mystery Knight allowed readers to meet Bloodraven (not simply have him referred to having a thousand and eyes and one by Dunk), prior to us meeting him in ADWD. The timing of these prequels is significant. I suspect that GRRM's upcoming novella in Rogues will provide further backstory that is also possibly related to TWOW.

<snip>

Love it!!! :)

Love, love, love your handle! :)

[Petyr Patter]

If Jon was illegitimate, then 3 KG would not protect him at ToJ instead of the rightful king Viserys III in Dragonstone.

This is an argument disproved with one name: Barristan.

The fact that the famous for his honor and nobility Barristan Selmy didn't go running off to serve Viserys means the KG are human and fallible. Their presence at the Tower isn't them doing their duty, it was them failing their duty. Probably under orders from Rhaeghar, but the king, the crown prince, the king's grandson, and grand daughter all died when the guarded the prince's mistress. Considering the weakness of communications, they probably thought it likely Viserys was dead or captured as well. When Eddard showed up with a small force, they almost asked to be killed in combat, an "honorable death."

[ireallyknownothing]

I thought what Tyrion said would be an awesome idea: "The Kingslayer Brothers". Check it out guys: http://teespring.com/thekingslayers

[Mithras]

This is an argument disproved with one name: Barristan.

The fact that the famous for his honor and nobility Barristan Selmy didn't go running off to serve Viserys means the KG are human and fallible. Their presence at the Tower isn't them doing their duty, it was them failing their duty. Probably under orders from Rhaeghar, but the king, the crown prince, the king's grandson, and grand daughter all died when the guarded the prince's mistress. Considering the weakness of communications, they probably thought it likely Viserys was dead or captured as well. When Eddard showed up with a small force, they almost asked to be killed in combat, an "honorable death."

Barristan was severely wounded after the Battle of Trident. I think the ToJ was regularly and secretly getting help from Starfall. Surely they were getting the news as well. They stayed quite a long time in ToJ. 3 KG, a dying woman and a baby alone do not give us a meaningful picture. The must have squires, serving people, a wetnurse (Wylla) for provisions and so on.

[starki]

I do, however, think that while Jon doesn't remain dead, he will die in order to be released from his vows to the NW (making it possible for him to take on the role of The Prince Who Was Promised).

I provided that bit because you seemed to have a problem with the wedding photos of Jon & Dany. I also wanted to point out that GRRM has recently confirmed that Targaryens not only wed brother to sister, but other relations married one another as well. These prequels are not standalone stories. They do serve a purpose in the larger ASOIAF. The Mystery Knight allowed readers to meet Bloodraven (not simply have him referred to having a thousand and eyes and one by Dunk), prior to us meeting him in ADWD. The timing of these prequels is significant. I suspect that GRRM's upcoming novella in Rogues will provide further backstory that is also possibly related to TWOW.

If he's in a coma and wakes up, he's still a Night's Watch guy. He will be until the Others invade the Wall.

Jon being APTWP is flying in the face of Aemon saying interpreters were wrong and Daenerys is the one, proved by the dragons. And the woods witch who prophesied that the PTWP would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella (ie Rhaegar, Viserys or Daenerys).

Jon being heir to the Throne (if R+L = J and if they were married) is second to Aegon, who just showed up in ADWD. It also undermines the whole saga of Daenerys learning to rule across the books so far.

I don't think actors posting photos matter much. I don't really care what prequels say. WoW and the seventh book will reveal all.

I think Ned's debate with Kingsguard with TOJ is interesting. KG members aren't at the Trident with the Prince, three others are. They're not in KL with their King. And they're not with the heir, Viserys. I'm thinking Viserys and Daenerys were sent overseas but Aegon was at TOJ, as he was taken out of KL.(remember "Aegon" at KL is mutilated and they can't see his face) Take the King's children to safety, and take out the Prince's child and help Targaryens dinasty to survive. Well played by Varys.

[Tyrion Hand of the King]

If he's in a coma and wakes up, he's still a Night's Watch guy. He will be until the Others invade the Wall.

Jon being APTWP is flying in the face of Aemon saying interpreters were wrong and Daenerys is the one, proved by the dragons. And the woods witch who prophesied that the PTWP would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella (ie Rhaegar, Viserys or Daenerys).

Jon being heir to the Throne (if R+L = J and if they were married) is second to Aegon, who just showed up in ADWD. It also undermines the whole saga of Daenerys learning to rule across the books so far.

I don't think actors posting photos matter much. I don't really care what prequels say. WoW and the seventh book will reveal all.

I think Ned's debate with Kingsguard with TOJ is interesting. KG members aren't at the Trident with the Prince, three others are. They're not in KL with their King. And they're not with the heir, Viserys. I'm thinking Viserys and Daenerys were sent overseas but Aegon was at TOJ, as he was taken out of KL.(remember "Aegon" at KL is mutilated and they can't see his face) Take the King's children to safety, and take out the Prince's child and help Targaryens dinasty to survive. Well played by Varys.

You have to take into account that a lot of people on this site believe Aegon is not a legitimate Targ, in which case he would obviously not have priority over Jon. Once the evidence is given to you, as with R+L=J, it becomes pretty hard to dispute. Aegon being fake also makes R+L=J more meaningful in the sense that Jon would actually be the heir, not Aegon.

On another note I think your being a little short sighted by saying you don't care what the prequels say. As others have pointed out, they are in the same universe and often give us new information that could impact the series.

Edited May 3, 2014 by Tyrion Hand of the King

[Obebb]

I thought what Tyrion said would be an awesome idea: "The Kingslayer Brothers". Check it out guys: http://teespring.com/thekingslayers

:lol: That's really awesome

[Tyrion Hand of the King]

Has anyone on this thread seen the comments GRRM made about the potential spoiler at the end of this episode? How do you guys interpret what little he had to say?

[rmholt]

There is a thread for R + L stuff. This isn't it. However given the giant spoiler on the cover of the Rolling Stone all those threads may die. People with crackpot theories ask yourself, or a friend, is that the answer D&D gave GRRM to that Q?

Edited May 3, 2014 by rmholt

[Tyrion Hand of the King]

There is a thread for this stuff. This isn't it.

Sorry where is that thread? I wasn't able to find anything.

[rmholt]

Sorry where is that thread? I wasn't able to find anything.

d

Deep apologies see edit

[Dany's Silver]

Back on topic (sorry, rmholt; didn't mean to derail the thread): Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing how tomorrow night's episode will resolve the plotline changes introduced by having Bran at Craster's Keep (hell, for that matter, by having Jon return to Craster's Keep!).

starki My reply to your last post is here (where it belongs). :)

[Mithras]

I am not comfortable with Slynt being more intelligent and Thorne acting dumber in the show. Book Thorne was ever a hateful creature, a nasty piece of work, but he was extremely manipulative and dangerous. And he was cunning. I would like to see a Joffrey-level of antagonism with the addition of cunning from him.

[nara]

I thought what Tyrion said would be an awesome idea: "The Kingslayer Brothers". Check it out guys: http://teespring.com/thekingslayers

As awesome as that is, it surprised me when I watched the episode that neither one seemed to know/remember that Cersei is also a kingslayer, by way of boar/strong wine.

[Khal Porno]

Has anyone on this thread seen the comments GRRM made about the potential spoiler at the end of this episode? How do you guys interpret what little he had to say?

There is a thread for R + L stuff. This isn't it. However given the giant spoiler on the cover of the Rolling Stone all those threads may die. People with crackpot theories ask yourself, or a friend, is that the answer D&D gave GRRM to that Q?

Can we get links or more info please? Google ain't helping me here.

[Colonel Green]

And the woods witch who prophesied that the PTWP would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella (ie Rhaegar, Viserys or Daenerys).

Being born "from the line" doesn't mean only first-generation. Jon is "of the line" of Aerys and Rhaella every bit as much as Dany is.

[rmholt]

Can we get links or more info please? Google ain't helping me here.

Link to a spoiler? The R + L thread is on the book forum Edited May 3, 2014 by rmholt