Butterfly effect: Now Jon knows... (Huge Spoilers)

[sj4iy]

I like Locke too, but having him be the one to stab Jon would completely change everything about the storyline. It wouldn't be that the NW wasn't able to see the wisdom in Jon's embracing of the wildlings....it would just be that Roose Bolton's spy did what he was sent there to do.

I think the show runners will try to keep the surprise of Jon's murder attempt. Keeping someone near him that the audience knows wants to kill him would simply make it inevitable.

[DaveyJoe]

Why do people keep saying that Locke would be the one to stab Jon? Jon was stabbed by multiple brothers of the Night's Watch and I'm sure it'll be the same in the show, whether or not Locke is involved.

[MrsManderly]

Why do people keep saying that Locke would be the one to stab Jon? Jon was stabbed by multiple brothers of the Night's Watch and I'm sure it'll be the same in the show, whether or not Locke is involved.

Exactly!

it seems to me you could have:

- Locke fails to kill Bran in next episode

- maybe even Jon and Locke thinks Bran is dead anyway (e.g. if Bran gets away before Jon arrives and Karl Tanner lies to Jon that he killed Bran)

- so Locke now has no immediate mission but either he gets stuck up there since he took the NW oath or (more likely) Bolton has him hang out there just in case

- he advances through the NW ranks

- Jon thinks they are pals and appoints him head steward or whatever

- Jon lets the wildlings in, NW grumbles generally

- Locke subtly manipulates the brothers to get them angrier and angriear at Jon + there's the whole Stannis/Mel/Selyse dynamic as per books

- and hey presto Jon gets stabbed by a NW mutiny!

And to thicken the plot further, having a Bolton man up at the Wall there lends itself to all sort of possibilities in relation to the Pink Letter....

Of course, this all only works IF the big picture is that Boltons/Lannisters had at least some involvement in Jon's stabbing.

[Dany's Silver]

Time will tell... I think it may play better to the Unsullied to have a character that they know festering there for a while and then culminating in the stabbing.

Otherwise, what's the point of having Locke up at the wall? Vargo never went there so him being a Vargo replacement doesn't quite answer the question for me. I guess he could just be there as a short term threat to Bran's life - in wich case he bites the dust in the next episode or two. But that seems like a bit of a waste of a fair bit of character set up...

Also, one of the big theories regarding Bowen Marsh & Co's motivation is that they were acting on behalf of the Lannisters (this prompted by an earlier intiative by Cersei (or was it Tywin?) to get rid of Ned's bastard at the wall). If that theory is panning out to be true - given D&D's knowledge of what comes ahead - having Locke be the instigator would fit in nicely.

As regars Ghost, Ghost's animus towards Locke can be incorporated to great effect for the viewers, while having Jon ignore it - as indeed he ignores many warnings of what is to come. And of course Ghost is tied up for the "main event" in ADWD.

I may be proven wrong on Sunday/Monday when Locke bites the dust at Craster's, but for now, I'm placing my bets on this one....

Unless Locke escapes and then somehow goes after Rickon, I can't see him lasting very long.

IIRC, Jon believes that Ghost is behaving aggressively in ADWD because Borroq the skinchanger arrives with his boar. Jon doesn't want Ghost to kill the boar and cause further animosity between the Night's Watch and the wildlings who have come south with Tormund. Although Jon has cause to doubt Melisandre's warningss, it doesn't mean he is ignoring Ghost's warnings; he just misinterprets them as a reaction to the skinchanger.

Book Ghost is a damn good judge of character, show Ghost not so much. He let himself get caged by a bunch of bad guys. And he abandoned Jon when Jon was still with Qhorin, because according to Qhorin he is just a wild beast.

I think he fell into a trap (like Summer just did), which is a lot different than having the mutineers manage to cage him. Yes, but even Show!Ghost knew that the Mormont need assistance. Admittedly they didn't handle Jon and Snow parting beyond the Wall very well, but that doesn't mean that Show!Ghost is bad judge of character.

[ToTheWolves]

Oh great this puts a end to my joffrey is coldhands theory.

[Uldra I]

I like Locke too, but having him be the one to stab Jon would completely change everything about the storyline. It wouldn't be that the NW wasn't able to see the wisdom in Jon's embracing of the wildlings....it would just be that Roose Bolton's spy did what he was sent there to do.

Haven't read any threads yet, so don't really know what others are thinking about the stabbing of Jon, but my interpretation from reading the books was that Bowen Marsh's hatred of Jon goes back to before the Choosing. Seems like he was just a tool in the "hate Snow" posse at the wall. That group just wanted to get rid of him like Bolton does in the show. Bowen saw an opportunity and jumped on it. Can't see too much difference in what or why Jon got stabbed, whether by Bowen or Locke. But it seems too early in the story for that to happen now.

It seems to me that Jon has more to do at the wall first with the wildling situation, and he hasn't had the pink letter yet which is what causes him to want to go to Winterfell.

[Jairion Lannister]

If Jon nearly finds Bran and just misses him, I wonder if he will allow him to keep going and won't pursue him because he knows the Wildlings are near and knows his duty is to the NW. It would be in character since it's been a central theme for Jon's arc, since we saw it when Robb went to war and when he turned on the Wildlings. It'd fit in well and continue that dilemma for him, without making it look as if Jon's just let Bran go because it doesn't fit into the books.

[ToTheWolves]

Only problem I had with the episode is(but i accept it and I unlike others can read the books & watch the show and see them as two different things is...

As I recall now I could be wrong but IN THE BOOKS, isn't ghost missing for a while. Jon often wonders about him but for some reason he's still missing. So around the time stannis offers jon to be a stark and offer him winterfell... Isn't one of the things that sway jon to say no is how ghost reappears out if nowhere and reminds him of Ned's gods?

I enjoyed this moment in the books and was let down when I seen it may be changed, BUT however what the show has done is interesting too I like what they've done.

& just like how GRRM has said. If you don't like the story he has created THEN GO WRITE YOUR OWN THAT WOULD BETTER SUIT YOU. Same can be said for the show.

[Seneti]

Book Ghost is a damn good judge of character, show Ghost not so much. He let himself get caged by a bunch of bad guys. And he abandoned Jon when Jon was still with Qhorin, because according to Qhorin he is just a wild beast.

I don't think he "let" himself get caged. I think he either fell into a trap similar to the one that Summer fell into or he was caged up by Sam when the survivors of the ranging returned to CK (just like Robb caged up Greywind before the RW - everythime a direwolf ends up in a cage, it bodes ill...)

[Tixu Oty]

It seems like a really long ride from Craster's to wherever one would expect the HQ of the White Walkers to be. Presumably its in the Lands of Always Winter, hundreds of miles from Craster's, across a forbidding mountain range. Even if we stipulate the WW have magic "don't get frostbite" powers with their affinity to cold, a baby would die of dehydration and starvation before reaching it. Unless WWs can also nurse newborns...

I'm glad someone brought that up, I was thinking the exact same thing!

It looks like things are being set up for the mutineers to use Bran against Jon. :dunno:

I can live with that! I'm also eager to see where this goes.

He probably will tell him, cuts out the whole Wex Pyke thing, Stannis can just send Davos to pick him up.

Saves time introducing the Manderlys..Davos being 'killed' etc.. they can be brought in some other way.

Stannis offers Jon Winterfell but Jon refuses saying Rickon is still alive so Stannis sends Davos after Rickon?

Davos looks for him at White Harbor seeing as House Manderly is loyal to the Starks...and Wyman gives him the leads towards finding him on Skagos. He also talks about some Northern vengeance!

Yes I suppose they could do that. If so, I sure hope they find ways to make it super interesting because the whole Davos and Manderly thing was one of my favorite moments in AFFC/ADWD.

It works if Jon has no idea where Rickon is. He could advise that Stannis try to hook up with Manderly who is loyal and has boats, two birds with one stone, with Rickon being a side mission. But there's no way Manderly would send Davos to Skagos in the show, since TV Rickon is headed for Last Hearth, and if Manderly plays his part in a convincing way, the Umbers would not trust him with that information I think.

Karl reminds me of some of the more "redneck" types I've met down here in the South. I think a person like Karl might just get a huge ego boost knowing he now has a big ferocious direwolf to call his own.

You're right, I think no further explanation is needed really.

Now Jon Snow knows something, that's D&D-level character assassination.

Aha :)

Yea it's like if you are going to make a major change like this, don't we at least deserve to see an emotional scene where Jon finds out his brother wasn't murdered by his foster brother?

Except Jon didn't get that memo to start with, and neither did Robb and Cat in the show.

If that is the case D&D will be eliminating yet another great Stannis line. "Who better to command the black cloaks than a man who once commanded the gold, sire?" "Any of you, I would think. Even the cook." But who am I kidding, showStannis has zero sense of humor and D&D go out of their way to make him as unlikeable as humanly possible.

Nah they'll keep that in I'd say, they've already reminded us of where Slynt came from and established that Thorne isn't liked by the men which sets Slynt up to be the compromise candidate to oppose Jon which leads into that quote.

It would go along with the 'raid the pantry' line, which was perfectly in line with the sardonic humour of Stannis.

I agree, no reason to assume that will be changed just yet.

Now in order to take things from the beginning:When Theon told about the Starks being alive i thought this would have lead to a Rickon-Osha chase.We never learned how Rick ended in the cannibals' isle and it could have been a fine addition.

No people having the Starks reunite is not cool!The series is not some fairy tale ,where in the end everyone lives happily ever after.I don't think i wanna see a cliche reunion where some typical emotion will kick in.Also as someone else mentioned the alternative of having repeatedly "almost there" reunion scenes will also lead to opposite results for the viewers.

As for the Stanis' offer thing i don't think the knowledge of Bran being alive changes that much.But it does change in terms of who Jon Snow has become.The belief that all his family are dead has played a significant role to the shaping of his character.And when he learns about "Arya" he goes from one mistake to the next since he's desperate to secure his only sister.A Jon Snow who knows that at least 3 of his brothers-sisters are alive is a completely different person and his story becomes far less dramatic.

I have two things to say about that. First, I'm like you I liked the tragic aspect of Jon not knowing all his siblings but Robb were really alive. I even liked that he could have figured it out with his wolf dreams but he had other problems on his plate, and just like the other Stark kids, we never really get much of his thoughts about the loss of his family.

However, I think it's ok to cut back on this for the show only people. Some of these could definitely deal with just a little bit more of hope and good things for the good people in this show. I believe it's also part of what keeps people watching. Sure it aint becoming a fairytale, but no need to go all out gloom either.

The second thing I want to see, and it occured to me while reading this thread, is that Theon has been whitewashed in a way in the show. We really don't know to what extent the false information that he killed the Stark boys has been spread. Robb and Cat never heard that story, and if Jon hasn't heard it, maybe not so many people believe that? Correct me if I'm wrong, my memory might be failing me there, but have we ever heard someone say that Theon killed the Stark boys??? I really can't remember. If not, then maybe the reason for that is the show wants to make a future redemption easier for Theon? Maybe Theon ends up meeting Jon Snow and the show needs Jon not to be super mad at Theon at this time? I really don't know.

I don't know if anyone's suggested this yet on this thread, but I think it's possible that if Bran escapes CK before Jon and co. arrive, that Karl could just lie to Jon and say he killed Bran just to be a spiteful prick. This would put everything back to how it is in the books and would actually make Jon feel even shittier about his brother's supposed death.

Hey that could definitely work for me. It would be a bit repetitive to have another near-miss if you ask me, but then again, it could serve to put the blame for Bran's supposed death on somebody else than Theon???

It has been mentioned, but I think that's the best possible outcome. I really, really don't want Bran and Jon to meet at this point. If anything, I would find it satisfying if Jojen sensed (or had a vision of) Jon's warging abilities. As I've said before, given that Jon and Ghost were separated by the Wall at Queenscrown, and Jon's link with his direwolf was severed (at least in the books), Jojen's ability to sense another warg in the Stark family was probably hampered. Alternatively, the Greenseer/3EC wasn't concerned with pointing out Bran's family's abilities to Jojen, but I like the idea of Jojen sussing this information out.

Yes and you know, come to think of it, Jojen doesn't even have to say anything to Jon. He could simply tell Bran at a later point once they have parted ways. Like Bran, you realize your bro is a warg too, right? This way Jon still wouldn't know but the viewers would really start seeing him differently. It could be nice.

[Uldra I]

...

The second thing I want to see, and it occured to me while reading this thread, is that Theon has been whitewashed in a way in the show. We really don't know to what extent the false information that he killed the Stark boys has been spread. Robb and Cat never heard that story, and if Jon hasn't heard it, maybe not so many people believe that? Correct me if I'm wrong, my memory might be failing me there, but have we ever heard someone say that Theon killed the Stark boys??? I really can't remember. If not, then maybe the reason for that is the show wants to make a future redemption easier for Theon? Maybe Theon ends up meeting Jon Snow and the show needs Jon not to be super mad at Theon at this time? I really don't know. ...

IIRC During the Red Wedding, Catelyn begs Walder Frey to release Robb, her only surviving son, and take her instead.

ETA: Oops... I was wrong... she referred to Robb as her first born son. Sorry.

[Seneti]

It works if Jon has no idea where Rickon is. He could advise that Stannis try to hook up with Manderly who is loyal and has boats, two birds with one stone, with Rickon being a side mission. But there's no way Manderly would send Davos to Skagos in the show, since TV Rickon is headed for Last Hearth, and if Manderly plays his part in a convincing way, the Umbers would not trust him with that information I think.

Actually, I firmly believe that Rickon is not headed for the Last Hearth. Osha SAID that they would go there, but that doesn't mean she'll do it. It'd actually make more sense if she didn't, because that way no one knows where Rickon really is and she's setting false trails, making detection even more unlikely.

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

I knew they wouldn't meet...they handled it better than expected, jon still has no clue if bran actually survived...

Hodor!

[MrsManderly]

Oh well - so much for my Locke is Bowen Marsh theory! :dunce:

Did people find the way the show worked it out satisfactory? I'm honestly not sure what I think about it

[Tixu Oty]

Yes it's fine I suppose. This added adventure at Craster's kills several birds in one stone

- give Bran something to do

- replace Jon's wondering about his siblings wolves in his wolf dreams with knowing for a fact Bran went North of the Wall at some point

- gives Jon some xp points

- replace Jon's disbelief at Theon killing his brothers with apparently never hearing that story in the first place

- Jon and Ghost reunion (right now I can't seem to remember at which point they reunited in the books)

Am I forgetting something?

I was surprised at the clearly more magical turn this episode took. What which Jojen and Bran awake visions? That was nice but unneeded story-wise and very unusual for the show. It looks like set up for more magic to come.

[Talking Hodor]

Its not a single scene. He offers it to him several times, gets angry with him for refusing. But Jon keeps refusing for several reasons which go to build his character.

He's waiting for him to throw in Boardwalk and Reading Railroad as well.