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Wise Man's Fear X (SPOILERS)


Elaena Targaryen

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SoMA,

How many times does Kvothe go on and on about how the Ruh don't steal... ever. Yet what what does he do several times? Is Kvothe no longer Ruh? As we know Kvothe will lie what does that do to his reliability as a narrator.

A Ruh troupe would never steal from a city they are visiting and betray that trust. At no time was Kvothe acting in the capacity of a visiting Ruh troupe.

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SoMA,

No, but he's never surrendered his position as Edema Ruh. He starts his story by proudly proclaiming his membership in the "Family". Does not being part of a Troop mean that he is not a "theiving Ruh" when he steals despite his protestations that Ruh never steal? I submit it does not.

Kvothe knowingly lies.

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I think there is a good chance that Denna's patron is one of the chadrian so, no I don't think he is un-biased. I think the truth probably lies in between what Kvothe and Denna believe. I don't think Nina should be dismissed so easily and if you want to dismiss her you need to have more reason that because she is a little girl, Kvothe saw the chadrian when he was a little boy does that make his impression of them wrong? She has seen something thousands of years old and so has more direct knowledge than any storyteller. She says that the Amyr is the worst on figure on the pot "He looked like he was ready to burn down the whole world." I don't think it is any co-incidence that when Patrick put bad things down about the Amyr he did it through two unreliable sources . If he wants to foreshadow a twist he isn't going to be on the nose about it.

I think that the fact little boys want to be Amyr is bad sign rather than good. The books are about who stories change and hide as well as reveal the truth so I would assume the stories about the Amyr have been corrupted as much, if not more so, as the stories about Kvothe. Also while we apparently have Simmon for the Amyr we have him very much against Gibea (like any sensible person) who almost certainly was a secret Amyr and killed thousands. Now Patrick might think that thousands of people dying for a bit of knowledge is a good thing but I doubt it. I also doubt that Kvothe will go full Richard Rahl (I do bad stuff but it's ok 'cause I'm good), I think Patrick is trying is seduce us with that kind of character but we know it all goes very badly for Kvothe so the next book will be about de-constructing that type of character.

I wouldn't dismiss Nina's impression... but I also wouldn't call it significant. She was looking at 8 crude paintings on a vase... she had no idea what she was looking at. There were 8 pictures and one of them was angry and had bloody hands... it's only natural that she'd find that one upsetting. There's no knowledge behind her opinion any deeper than angry people with blood soaked hands are upsetting.

Some meanings get lost in the ages, but there's usually a kernel of truth in all legends/myths/oral histories. The children's song about the chandrian is surprisingly accurate... as is the one about burying demons.... aside from Gibea, is there anything else suggesting the Amyr are less altruistic than legend suggests?

Also, I'd like to point out that you're conflating the human Amyr of the Aturan empire and the "real" Amyr as Felurian called them.

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SoMA,

No, but he's never surrendered his position as Edema Ruh. He starts his story by proudly proclaiming his membership in the "Family". Does not being part of a Troop mean that he is not a "theiving Ruh" when he steals despite his protestations that Ruh never steal? I submit it does not.

Kvothe knowingly lies.

It seems to me that whenever he was making such statements he was ALWAYS referring to the behavior of a Ruh Troupe in the town/village/city in which they were performing. To interpret it otherwise would be rather silly... "No Ruh would ever do that. (Steal)" You think he's claiming that no Edema Ruh has ever knowingly stolen something from another person? Ever? In all of their long years of existence as a people? That's absurd.

The troupes depend on the hospitality of towns/villages/cities that they've never visited before for survival. Betraying that trust and ruining that relationship with thievery/rape/etc. would be the most heinous offense in the eyes of other Ruh... hence, "Ruh do not do that."

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Ninefingers,

Wanting to be a good person and acting in a fashion that means people would see you as a good person are very different things. I think Kvothe wants to be a good person but lets his impulse control problems get in the way of that goal.

Feels very reasonable to me. Perhaps Rothfuss had the old saying "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" in mind when developing Kvothe's character.

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SotMA,

He's lieing to himself then. I imagine there are Ruh troops that "go out on the heels" and resort to stealing. That or he's falling into the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

Well obviously there are exceptions to every rule... and if you can find me a law that's never been broken I'll be impressed... this holds true with the Ruh, otherwise there would be no need for the broken circle branding. A Ruh troupe betraying the trust given it by a town/city is a capital offense in their world. There's few things worse than that. No Ruh would behave as such, thus when someone does behave that way, they are no longer Ruh, and they are branded with the broken circle.

It would be more than a stretch to apply those rules to a child left alone in a strange city with nothing and no one to turn to. Were that child to one day join a troupe and perform in a town, that special code of conduct would then apply to him again.

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I wouldn't dismiss Nina's impression... but I also wouldn't call it significant. She was looking at 8 crude paintings on a vase... she had no idea what she was looking at. There were 8 pictures and one of them was angry and had bloody hands... it's only natural that she'd find that one upsetting. There's no knowledge behind her opinion any deeper than angry people with blood soaked hands are upsetting.

Some meanings get lost in the ages, but there's usually a kernel of truth in all legends/myths/oral histories. The children's song about the chandrian is surprisingly accurate... as is the one about burying demons.... aside from Gibea, is there anything else suggesting the Amyr are less altruistic than legend suggests?

Also, I'd like to point out that you're conflating the human Amyr of the Aturan empire and the "real" Amyr as Felurian called them.

The thing is that Nina did not just wander on to the page despite the author's best intentions. She shows up because she and what she has seen is necessary to the plot. Saying that she was young, scared, etc does not really explain why she turns up (and why her reappearance is foreshadow more than most other events). We know she is young and scared from meeting her before, we know about Cinder and Haliax and their signs from before and we know the Amyr were related to, probably opposing, the Chadrian. The only new info she brings is that the Amyr may be a threat rather than a help.

It might be that Felurian is right and there are no human Amyr. It could be that the "human" Amyr have always been immortals disguised as humans just as Cinder disguised himself as a bandit and Bast is pretending to be a workshy barman.

I am really hoping that Kvothe meets a less than perfect Ruh troop in the next book. At the moment it seems like Patrick is doing a noble savage treatment of travelers and it is both annoying and patronising. Desperate people steal, kids steal for fun or to rebel, people steal to get back at people they don't like. I can't believe that there are no desperate, young or vengeful people among the Ruh. We already know one a least.

Going full crackpot now.

I wonder if the be reveal at the end of the series will be that Kvothe was born with all his skills because he is meant to do bad things. This is why he is in hiding and won't do magic and also why young Kvothe seems unbelievable, it's because he is a key which will be used to unleash the current chaos and no longer trusts his power or wants to be used by higher forces.

Kvothe gives up his name and takes a name which means "nothing" and that is why he loses all the skills he had. Elodin tells him is is dangerous to change his name and when he is beaten up in the bar he says "I forgot who I was" meaning he could use his fighting skill when he thought he was Kvothe but as soon as he remembered he is supposed to be Kote he got his arse handed to him. So Bast is right that he needs to be reminded who he is but he doesn't need to be provoked or be reminded of his heroic deeds, he only needs to take back his real name. I'm pretty sure Skarpi reminds Kvothe of his name in first book, which sends him to Uni, so maybe the chronicler has been sent to do the same thing, he does know some names.

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The thing is that Nina did not just wander on to the page despite the author's best intentions. She shows up because she and what she has seen is necessary to the plot. Saying that she was young, scared, etc does not really explain why she turns up (and why her reappearance is foreshadow more than most other events). We know she is young and scared from meeting her before, we know about Cinder and Haliax and their signs from before and we know the Amyr were related to, probably opposing, the Chadrian. The only new info she brings is that the Amyr may be a threat rather than a help.

But we know with undeniable certainty that the Amyr hunt the Chandrian... we also know that the Chandrian are rather horrible...at the very least the Amyr are trying to rid the world of something horrible. That Haliax's comment corroborates Skarpi's story is also worth considering. Skarpi appears to be a namer

Essentially, yes, its possible that the Amyr could be less altruistic than they appear... but aside from the depiction on the vase, a depiction which makes perfect sense, knowing the Amyr hunt the Chandrian, and Denna's song (which was likely inspired by one of the Seven or one of their supporters) we have no evidence indicating such.

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I think the Kvothe as thief thing is not meant to be take literally (cue the Life of Brian reference), but is just a small point of irony: A person who angrily rejects the characterization of his people as thieves steals like it's going out of style.


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But we know with undeniable certainty that the Amyr hunt the Chandrian... we also know that the Chandrian are rather horrible...at the very least the Amyr are trying to rid the world of something horrible. That Haliax's comment corroborates Skarpi's story is also worth considering. Skarpi appears to be a namer

Essentially, yes, its possible that the Amyr could be less altruistic than they appear... but aside from the depiction on the vase, a depiction which makes perfect sense, knowing the Amyr hunt the Chandrian, and Denna's song (which was likely inspired by one of the Seven or one of their supporters) we have no evidence indicating such.

I think Rothfuss means for us to believe this, and is going to turn it on its head as a subversion of a common fantasy trope. Time will tell, but I think you're walking into a trap Rothfuss is laying for you.

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So the Seven... who even Felurian refuses to discuss ... who at the very least, assuming for a moment that all Skarpi said was a lie, murder Kvothe's parents & troupe for practicing a song and massacre a large wedding party in Trebon because the attendees saw a crude painting, are going to turn out to be the misunderstood would-be good guys to this story? Ugh. So Tehlu is secretly evil and the Chandrian are the most mis-represented bunch of noble mass murderers ever. Every single society & culture just so happens to have the exact same misunderstanding despite barriers of language, geography and time... a mis-representation that just so happens to precisely align with the one instance in which we've actually encountered them...

If that's his plan, then I guess I took the bait.

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SotMA,

Well obviously there are exceptions to every rule... and if you can find me a law that's never been broken I'll be impressed... this holds true with the Ruh, otherwise there would be no need for the broken circle branding. A Ruh troupe betraying the trust given it by a town/city is a capital offense in their world. There's few things worse than that. No Ruh would behave as such, thus when someone does behave that way, they are no longer Ruh, and they are branded with the broken circle.

It would be more than a stretch to apply those rules to a child left alone in a strange city with nothing and no one to turn to. Were that child to one day join a troupe and perform in a town, that special code of conduct would then apply to him again.

What you and Kvothe are arguing is the essence of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. Ruh are Ruh until they do something bad which means, by definition, they are not Ruh. By Kvothe's own definition he is not Ruh.

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