Wise Man's Fear X (SPOILERS)

[jet199]

So the Seven... who even Felurian refuses to discuss ... who at the very least, assuming for a moment that all Skarpi said was a lie, murder Kvothe's parents & troupe for practicing a song and massacre a large wedding party in Trebon because the attendees saw a crude painting, are going to turn out to be the misunderstood would-be good guys to this story?

Gibae killed thousands for the greater good. I don't agree with this line of thinking but Kvothe does. He thinks Gibae is great. As long as Kvothe thinks killing thousands if innocents is ok for a bit of knowledge I can't take seriously his hatred of the seven.

I don't think the chadrian are going to turn out to be good but I don't think they are just out to destroy the world and I think Kvothe and the amyr have the potential to end up being just as bad. I think Larne probably was betrayed, the telling thing for me is that we don't know how Lyra died, but that doesn't make his behaviour ok. It might be could maybe go back to his old name, lose his Haliax powers and then die. If anything I think the seven probably want the Lackless door open, which is something Kvothe will likely do.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Jet,

The Amyr are militant utilitarians. Kvothe buys into their philosophy a bit too unquestioningly.

[HairBearHero]

He thinks Gibae is great.

Been a while since I've read WMF, but I didn't get this impression.

I think his view was more that the tragedy/travesty had already happened, so he may as well take something positive from it. It's the whole "read the book, not the author" thing taken to the extreme.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Human Amyr and real Amyr are two totally separate groups. One has existed for thousands of years and include people cast from the same mold as Felurian... As in, more than human. Gibea was part of the military/judicial wing of a short lived empire. And Kvothe acknowledges that while Gibea did horrible things, you can't avoid the fact that his rather unsavory study of anatomy has since saved millions of lives. That's nothing more than sound logical analysis. When he realizes that Simmon's family probably owed fealty to Gibea he immediately reconsiders his position.

I just want to make sure I follow you... You choose to come down rather hard on Kvothe for stealing food as a child in Tarbean and his position on Gibea which he held for about 7 minutes before reconsidering the situation from Simmon's perspective, yet you give the Chandrian a remarkable degree of leniency when we know with a fair degree of certainty that the legends about them are quite true. They appear and massacre anyone who mentions their name more than two or three times. You will forgive me for not trusting to your moral compass on these matters....

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

SoMA,

The Amyr could be good or bad. They were likely both. The point is that it is far too soon to say with finality we know they Amyr goals were noble and that the Chandrian's goals are wholely evil. We're getting this story from Kvothe's limited and unreliable POV.

[Ninefingers]

The Amyr could be good or bad. They were likely both. The point is that it is far too soon to say with finality we know they Amyr goals were noble and that the Chandrian's goals are wholely evil. We're getting this story from Kvothe's limited and unreliable POV.

Very well put. Co-sign.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

We have multiple accounts within Kvothe's story from multiple other sources about the nature of the Chandrian. We also have Bast/Cobb/Chronicler's limited commentary in the interlude. All of which align with Kvothe's story and the widely accepted view of the Chandrian. Which also aligns with what we've seen of them. Of course its possible that they aren't the evil monsters they see, but we have no evidence of that whatsoeverBy all means posit some scenario where the Chandrian are doing some 'good' in the world and are just misunderstood.

I don't doubt that Lanre was once good and noble...He was accounted among the greatest... He was betrayed in some fashion by The Ctheah and was thereby corrupted. It is/was a tragedy. That is no secret. In Lanre's mind, he's doing the right thing... he's destroying the world so as to spare it and himself from the pains associated with life. Quite a few sociopaths believe themselves to be self-righteous. As to the Amyr's nobility & righteousness, maybe there is more to them, but there is no escaping the fact that they hunt the Chandrian, and until some evidence to the contrary is brought forth, the Chandrian are safely in the "Evil" column. By opposing the Chandrian wherever possible, the Amyr are ultimately working towards the greater good by default.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

SotMA,

You are assuming Kvothe is a reliable source. Further, we have multipul sources who say Kvothe was a "right bastard" at times. We don't know, with any certainty, that Kvothe isn't embelishing his story to make himself the hero.

We have Denna making up a song, that becomes popular as the "Song of Seven Sorrows", that paints Lanre as the hero. Kvothe is relying upon Scarpi's word that Lanre is a villan and we barely know who Scarpi is or why he's out telling old stories.

You are looking at this story as though its the "white hats" v. the "black hats". Few things are ever that clear and no one ever sees themself as the villain. That factors into Kvothe's story significantly.

We have the bareist of ideas about what the war is or why monsters out of story are showing up in Newhare. We need the third book to figure these things out.

[Ninefingers]

SotMA,

You are assuming Kvothe is a reliable source. Further, we have multipul sources who say Kvothe was a "right bastard" at times. We don't know, with any certainty, that Kvothe isn't embelishing his story to make himself the hero.

We have Denna making up a song, that becomes popular as the "Song of Seven Sorrows", that paints Lanre as the hero. Kvothe is relying upon Scarpi's word that Lanre is a villan and we barely know who Scarpi is or why he's out telling old stories.

You are looking at this story as though its the "white hats" v. the "black hats". Few things are ever that clear and no one ever sees themself as the villain. That factors into Kvothe's story significantly.

We have the bareist of ideas about what the war is or why monsters out of story are showing up in Newhare. We need the third book to figure these things out.

Plus,

Kvothe's current day frame story position indicates that he seriously f'd something up.

If we do believe that Kvothe is a "good guy"(or at least tries to play the part of one), then I think the conclusion is that his actions that led to the current state of the world were based on flawed information or assumptions.

[jet199]

“Not many folk will take your search for the Amyr seriously, you realize,” the Cthaeh continued calmly. “The Maer, however, is quite the extraordinary man. He’s already come close to them, though he doesn't realize it. Stick by the Maer and he will lead you to their door.”

The Cthaeh gave a thin, dry chuckle. “Blood, bracken, and bone, I wish you creatures had the wit to appreciate me. Whatever else you might forget, remember what I just said. Eventually you’ll get the joke. I guarantee. You’ll laugh when the time comes.”

The Cthaeh links the seven to a door, which is probably the Lackless door or the door in the archives, Kvothe will open that door. He will spend the whole story wanting to kill them and end up giving them what they want.

[Gaston de Foix]

“Not many folk will take your search for the Amyr seriously, you realize,” the Cthaeh continued calmly. “The Maer, however, is quite the extraordinary man. He’s already come close to them, though he doesn't realize it. Stick by the Maer and he will lead you to their door.”

The Cthaeh gave a thin, dry chuckle. “Blood, bracken, and bone, I wish you creatures had the wit to appreciate me. Whatever else you might forget, remember what I just said. Eventually you’ll get the joke. I guarantee. You’ll laugh when the time comes.”

The Cthaeh links the seven to a door, which is probably the Lackless door or the door in the archives, Kvothe will open that door. He will spend the whole story wanting to kill them and end up giving them what they want.

Jet199, the Cthaeh is saying the door is the Amyr's not the Chandrian (though whether they made it or use it is not clear). There is in fact no reason to suspect that the door has anything to do with the Seven.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Kvothe would not be the first "good" person to make a mistake.

I still contend he is a moral person. His traumatic formative years have left him perhaps more willing to take matters into his own hands than your typical person, but in the 4C's a man makes his own justice or has none at all. He has harmed no innocents, and what's more, has rendered aid to those in need whenever possible, almost always to his own detriment. I think he's an admirable fellow. If his decision making process can at times be over-ridden by his drive to seek vengeance on the Chandrian for what they did, and he dispenses his own justice for heinous crimes, it's hard to fault him for that.

Back to the Amyr, ... In NotW, Denna says "...Angel Ordal above!" or some such, Marten repeats this, and goes on to list the same persons Skarpi identified as THE Amyr. The Tehlin church is founded on the belief of Tehlu's virtue & righteousness.

I think you all dismiss the legends and oral histories far, far too quickly. There is a fundamental element of truth in all such legends, myths, histories, religious parables... we are told that all such stories have a kernel of truth in them by Arliden, Abenthy, Laurian, Skarpi, Kilvin, and Elodin (and most likely others whom I cannot recall so rapidly) in Book 1 alone...

I expect there is more to such old stories, but the foundations are true.

ALSO... Back to Denna's mention of 'Angel Ordal above' ... I am more convinced than ever than Denna's patron/song/activities will bring down the wrath of just such an Angel (Amyr).... and Kvothe will have to dispatch it.=

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

There is nothing noble, selfless, or admirable about his feud with Ambrose. That's personal and without merit.

[Darth Richard II]

Sometimes people need killing. As for the war, I withhold judgment.

o.O

There is nothing noble, selfless, or admirable about his feud with Ambrose. That's personal and without merit.

Don't be silly! Kvothe is perfect in every way and grows up to marry me!

[unJon]

I think you all dismiss the legends and oral histories far, far too quickly.

you have obviously skipped the first nine WMF threads.

[thistlepong]

you have obviously skipped the first nine WMF threads.

I don't think there's anything important in the legends and oral histories.

[thistlepong]

Oh, hey. In case anyone missed it. The world is called Temerant.

[Slick Mongoose]

Oh, hey. In case anyone missed it. The world is called Temerant.

*Googles*

Latin, third-person plural present active indicative of temerō.

Verb

present active temerō, present infinitive temerāre, perfect active temerāvī, supine temerātum

1. I violate, defile, pollute, contaminate.

I dishonor, disgrace.

So what does Elodin's book "En Temerant Voistra" mean?

[Derfel Cadarn]

This series (all two of them) has been gathering dust on my shelf for a couple of years, finaly gotten rounto reading them, and enjoyed them more than I thought.

Impatient for book 3

[Gaston de Foix]

*Googles*

So what does Elodin's book "En Temerant Voistra" mean?

I think the distinction between Temerant and "the Four Corners" is that Temerant encompasses all that is outside the 4 corners but still part of the "story/world/setting", including most obviously Faerie.

My guess is the book is written from the perspective of someone coming to Temerant from the outside, in which case it means, In the World of Temerant

Or it is written from the perspective of someone who has travelled the world and is using it in the same colloquial sense that we would say "around the world in 80 days" and so it means something like "our broken world" or "our shattered world".