Wise Man's Fear X (SPOILERS)

[Darth Richard II]

I don't think there's anything important in the legends and oral histories.

o.0

[Gaston de Foix]

o.0

He's taking the piss :cool4: .

[Darth Richard II]

He's taking the piss :cool4: .

Oh, right, sorry. Shitty yesterday plus the news today has me in a pissy mood. Well more pissy than normal anyway.

[SugarCrisp]

Sorry if I'm hijacking the thread. I saw Wise Man's Fear and thought it would be a good place to start.

I question I have (and I don't think I'll get a real answer unless I ask Pat directly), Did Felurian, Ctaeth, etc. have extraordinary powers before the creation of the Fae realm? Or do they evolve after a prolonged exposure in the fae realm? I almost think the Ctaeth must have, as it spoke to Iax and lead him down his path.

Her story of the Creation War states that it started long ago "Before fae, before men" Which makes me wonder what inhabited the world prior to men? And what would that make Iax, Lyra, Lanre and the rest of them?

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Sorry if I'm hijacking the thread. I saw Wise Man's Fear and thought it would be a good place to start.

I question I have (and I don't think I'll get a real answer unless I ask Pat directly), Did Felurian, Ctaeth, etc. have extraordinary powers before the creation of the Fae realm? Or do they evolve after a prolonged exposure in the fae realm? I almost think the Ctaeth must have, as it spoke to Iax and lead him down his path.

Her story of the Creation War states that it started long ago "Before fae, before men" Which makes me wonder what inhabited the world prior to men? And what would that make Iax, Lyra, Lanre and the rest of them?

(This is all pure speculation, mind you… but I suppose that goes without saying).

This is all so remarkably, painfully complex… like trying to figure out what a puzzle depicts when you only have a quarter of the pieces… and those real pieces are mixed in with thousands of false pieces that look legitimate but are actually anything but.

Felurian was around when the 8 Cities were in their prime… and from her own description, she sounds like little more than a bystander during those day/… and yet now she is a Faen creature of not inconsiderable power.

Did the shapers all leave for Fae once it was created?

My thought was that at some point with all of the cities but Tinue destroyed, many like Felurian, Selitos & others seemingly made the choice to leave the mortal lands for Faen realms. Perhaps that migration/influence of shapers/ Something-else changed their nature. I would say no… Felurian says there were no human Amyr, yet Selitos was apparently its founder? I viewed Selitos as a human – at least at one point - but I may be mistaken in that assumption. I think of him as a very, very powerful human. (The ‘strong wine’ who make current attendees at the Univ. appear as heavily watered wine in comparison). Perhaps powerful humans can transition into Faen creatures? If Fae is the realm of shapers, why the connection with Iax? And Selitos? For Selitos, it may well be that he was transformed into something more than man by Aleph.

What I want to know is…. If Felurian and presumably others not unlike her were in the 8 cities prior to & during the Creation War… who exactly was opposing the ‘Great Empire’? At what point did Felurian leave for the Fae?

Is there a place for the shapers that is what the University is to the Namers?

I fear I am rambling, but as with the puzzle analogy, there are doubtless one or two correct pieces in the above that only need to be arranged in the proper position. I will return to this later when not on a mobile device.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

SotMA,

You are still assuming Skarpi's story is completely accurate. I think there are seeds of truth in all the subcreation stories we've gotten so far. But none of them are completely true.

[thistlepong]

Short answer: Selitos and Felurian were Ruach (before men.) The Ruach made Elodin look like a toddler. A philosophical difference of opinion lead to a world razing war.

Faen appears to enhance magic. In Faen. Fae lose a portion of their power in the mortal.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Faen appears to enhance magic. In Faen. Fae lose a portion of their power in the mortal.

Yes, Kvothe going from calling the wind once in a rage to calling felurians name.

Short answer: Selitos and Felurian were Ruach (before men.) The Ruach made Elodin look like a toddler. A philosophical difference of opinion lead to a world razing war.

Faen appears to enhance magic. In Faen. Fae lose a portion of their power in the mortal.

When Selitos said 'with these faithful Ruach' I wasn't sure whether he was including himself in that category. Most likely yes, but curious phrasing. I guess it depends on the specific definition of Ruach. I can buy that. Also curious that Tehlu rose to such prominence amongst mortal types. One thing was bugging me the other day... when we get the list of 'Amyr'.... Andan, Ordal and the like... We know those are mentioned prominently in the Book of the Path, Denna mentions them, Marten mentions them, and they were even on Nina's little drawing (on the shoulders of the depiction of the Amyr, as luck would have it).... I wonder if Selitos is mentioned in the book of the path. Odd, to leave him out, is it not?

As for Skarpi's story... yes, I suppose I do buy into it. There's a lot of circumstantial corroborating evidence.. and it was not for nothing that the church was out for him...and that he had church friends very high up the ranks... but I suppose most of all because I have no reason not to believe him.

Skarpi is obviously a namer & know-er of great things. He will almost certainly be re-entering the story as a friend of Kvothe's, and his story is the best explanation of those times that we have. From Nina's depiction of the Amyr, we see that their emblem is a depiction of Myr Tyrinial under siege.

Obviously we don't have the whole story, not even the bones of it...but I think we have the outline of the bones of it.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

SotMA,

You are still assuming Skarpi's story is completely accurate. I think there are seeds of truth in all the subcreation stories we've gotten so far. But none of them are completely true.

Would you agree that the Ctheah is an evil/malevolent entity?

[thistlepong]

Would you agree that the Ctheah is an evil/malevolent entity?

I would agree only that Bast says he is. In what I think is the only declarative use of the word in the series.

Incidentally you have two reasons to doubt Skarpi. He tells Kvothe he's not entirely honest. And there's a competing version of the story apparently backed up by months of research. Wait, three. Kote calls him a rumor monger in the frame. All good reasons.

The Ruach thing is corroborated if not confirmed by Word-of-God. Conflating Telhlu&Pals with the Amyr is a minority position. I empathize. I came to the discussion holding it, but most folks think Selitos and the Amyr are a distinct group from the "angels."

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Interesting. Well, with that said, Do you anticipate Kvothe fighting and ultimately killing someone from Tehlu&Co. or someone from Selitos&Co.?

The only time we see Bast get really worked up is when something comes along that may jeopardize his desire to 'get his Reshi back'. Whatever the Ctheah may or may not be, Bast sincerely believes it to be not just 'a' big threat, but 'the' threat.... the biggest threat in all of Faen. The same group that wiped out the skindancers are charged with maintaining the isolation of the Ctheah. At the very least it's in bad company. Worthy of consideration.

Splitting off on a tangent here...

I wonder how much of D3 will occur in Faen. I'd say a lot. Years. Perhaps many. Bast is 150 years old and seems curiously deferential to Kvothe... almost like a younger brother... or a nephew or something along those lines. I also call to mind Kvothe's rather cryptic response to an inquiry about his age... "...I am older..."

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

SotMA,

Thistlepong pretty much laid out my position. It's clear Bast thinks the Ctheah is all evil and all knowing. How accuratw that belief is we do not know.

[Gaston de Foix]

SotMA,

Thistlepong pretty much laid out my position. It's clear Bast thinks the Ctheah is all evil and all knowing. How accuratw that belief is we do not know.

It's pretty clear that Felurian shares that belief. At a minimum we can infer she believes the Ctheah is dangerous.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

And I can't imagine Bast invented the whole thing about the Faen dramas and the foreshadowing, like the silent doctor in Modegan plays. Recall from Lightning Tree how averse Bast is to directly lying. He may withhold information, but lying outright is very much against his nature.

And yes, I realize that you're also suggesting Bast may believe this, but that he is merely mistaken. To which I say - He's a Faen prince and an all-together knowledgable fellow regarding Faen matters. How does he have something this important this wrong? He hasn't been afraid to say "I don't know."in the past...

I would categorize the "Bast being mistaken about the nature of the Ctheah" idea in the 'not impossible, but lacking any supporting evidence' column.

[Gaston de Foix]

And I can't imagine Bast invented the whole thing about the Faen dramas and the foreshadowing, like the silent doctor in Modegan plays. Recall from Lightning Tree how averse Bast is to directly lying. He may withhold information, but lying outright is very much against his nature.

And yes, I realize that you're also suggesting Bast may believe this, but that he is merely mistaken. To which I say - He's a Faen prince and an all-together knowledgable fellow regarding Faen matters. How does he have something this important this wrong? He hasn't been afraid to say "I don't know."in the past...

I would categorize the "Bast being mistaken about the nature of the Ctheah" idea in the 'not impossible, but lacking any supporting evidence' column.

Your point about Bast' Lightening Tree is an excellent one.

I would hesitant about such broad language, because when you label it so broadly: "Bast being mistaken about the nature of the Ctheah" - you are buying into a whole load of assumptions about inevitability and predetermination that I don't think we have or will ever have definitive in-world answers.

If the series ends with the hope or prospect of redemption for Kvothe, for instance, it will be a valid question to what extent Ctheah foresaw or willed his second act and to what extent Kvothe still remains under the shadow of his contact with the Ctheah. I doubt we will get a definitive answer to that question either.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Yes, I agree entirely that Bast's perception of the Ctheah's ability to inflict harm was a bit out of proportion... I presume he was conflating its intent to cause harm with its ability... While they are doubtless both very great, the former almost certainly exceeds the latter. It is trapped on a tree after all.

[thistlepong]

It's less about Bast lying, or even Bast being personally wrong, than the intersection of what he says and what that implies with author metacommentary.

So what Bast says could be entirely true except for his understanding of application of the term evil. And perfectly malicious or whatever. Given Bast's description, Cthaeh is kind of like Augustine's God with more will and ability to act. Whatever Kote says about the Fae not being like mortals goes double, treble, more for Cthaeh. He's by definition unfathomable.

The creation of the Scaendyne looks bad from the storyteller's perspective, but, y'know, Cthaeh works in mysterious ways.

I'm inclined toward doubt because Rothfuss has denied believing in evil. Folks can write about stuff entirely contrary to their beliefs, wants, and desires, of course. But it seems unlikely that he'd construct a story about a thieving murderer clinging to the edge of society, a corrupt religious empire, conniving self centered nobles, and ancient bogeymen with enough moral ambiguity to generate the questions we've addressed and then drop incontrovertible evil into it, rendering it irrelevant.

His position is a bit like CS Lewis with less conviction. Rather than there being no evil except good perverted, folks are just rude. Felurian believes he's dangerous, but she describes rudeness; not evil. It makes sense. Think of Kvothe's defense of the Duke of Gibea. Twenty thousand dead, some vivisected, all worth it for the five percent of his findings that survived the Amyr's justice. That's the universe we're reading in.

Most, if not all, theories can deal with this admittedly slight adjustment. But it's probably important to keep in mind when you run up against confusing or contrary evidence. In particular, it creates an environment hospitable to either Denna's or Skarpi's version of Lanre without the baggage of, for example, "Well, Lanre talked to the evil Cthaeh so his motivations were corrupt and, hey, Denna's must be, too, and her patron, and since her patron is..."

anyway, while I'm here:

Interesting. Well, with that said, Do you anticipate Kvothe fighting and ultimately killing someone from Tehlu&Co. or someone from Selitos&Co.?

Splitting off on a tangent here...
I wonder how much of D3 will occur in Faen. I'd say a lot. Years. Perhaps many. Bast is 150 years old and seems curiously deferential to Kvothe... almost like a younger brother... or a nephew or something along those lines. I also call to mind Kvothe's rather cryptic response to an inquiry about his age... "...I am older..."

There's the bit of story that Chronicler heard, that he thinks about in the frame, about killing an angel. Given the context I could see him killing one of Tehlu's pals. Though given the exaggerations Levinshir goes through, I wouldn't call it a guarantee.

I doubt much of D3 will take place in Faen. It's structurally inappropriate is a few ways. It's unnecessary. It would need to be justified by some worldbuilding which would take away from the mortal narrative that kind of needs to play out. If Kvothe spends, "Years. Perhaps many," in Faen, I reckon it'd be represented by a summary. A storm. Pirates. A shipwreck. That sort of thing.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

There's the bit of story that Chronicler heard, that he thinks about in the frame, about killing an angel. Given the context I could see him killing one of Tehlu's pals. Though given the exaggerations Levinshir goes through, I wouldn't call it a guarantee.

I think of the "I've killed men... and things that were more than men... Every one of them deserved it." line, as well.

Denna spreads pro-Lanre song far and wide... between that and her 'patron' she attracts the ire of whatever almost cause the Chandrian at Kvothe's troupe's campsite ... and Kvothe is forced to kill the thing, doubtless with some dark and terrible magic.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

I still marvel that many of you view Kvothe as a 'thieving murderer'.

[Gaston de Foix]

I think of the "I've killed men... and things that were more than men... Every one of them deserved it." line, as well.

I've always wondered about that line. It is inconsistent with Kvothe's oft-expressed regret for his actions- particularly in my imagination, where Kvothe seeks to open the Lackless door, is opposed by Ordal, and kills her.