R+L=J v.80

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yeah my brother has a tendency to judge a whole family by a few bad members. If I out Maester Aemon and Baelor Breakspear he will say look at Viserys. Look at Aerys. Look at Rhaegar. And he thinks R+L=J is just a theory to make one of the last few good guys a Targaryen.

Then you counter with 'look at Daeron the Good, look at Aegon the Unlikely, look at Jaehaerys the Conciliator and Good Queen Alysanne. Look at Viserys I'

There's plenty of good ones in the family.

[Emerentiana_Zamora]

I don't think we know yet if Rhaegar qualifies as a "bad" member. There are good and bad people in virtually every single family, and this one's no different.

Try telling this to a guy who thinks Dany is evil but Robert (yes Baratheon) and Arya are good.

[Bearded Swordsman]

I think the reason we are looking at previous Targs as evil is because we only had experienced with Dany as a full charcter. We only know that Aaerys II was mad and the other ones were born from incest so they cannot be normal too. ONe closer look at what the Targs looked before Roberts Rebelion and our opinions could change.

[Ygrain]

I do think that them reconciling over Lyanna's death would require them to be face to face..

And with Robert having gone to war to win Lyanna back, Ned could hardly say "oops, I've send her bones to Winterfell already", I think. Robert would want to see her remains, imo.

So do I. Besides, as Lyanna's betrothed and a new king, I think it would be rather offensive if Ned didn't bother to report back in person. Plus, what about his army? Was it disbanded after the Storms' End was liberated, or still awaiting his return? What about the Winterfell soldiers? (How did those guys learn about the trip to Starfall, anyway?)

Try telling this to a guy who thinks Dany is evil but Robert (yes Baratheon) and Arya are good.

Is there a chance that he might grown out of it?

[Dany's Silver]

Sorry if the stuff below doesn't seem to follow from the discussion in this particular thread, but it's a response that didn't belong in the Oathkeeper episode thread. Cheers.

If he's in a coma and wakes up, he's still a Night's Watch guy. He will be until the Others invade the Wall.

Jon being APTWP is flying in the face of Aemon saying interpreters were wrong and Daenerys is the one, proved by the dragons. And the woods witch who prophesied that the PTWP would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella (ie Rhaegar, Viserys or Daenerys).

Jon being heir to the Throne (if R+L = J and if they were married) is second to Aegon, who just showed up in ADWD. It also undermines the whole saga of Daenerys learning to rule across the books so far.

I don't think actors posting photos matter much. I don't really care what prequels say. WoW and the seventh book will reveal all.

I think Ned's debate with Kingsguard with TOJ is interesting. KG members aren't at the Trident with the Prince, three others are. They're not in KL with their King. And they're not with the heir, Viserys. I'm thinking Viserys and Daenerys were sent overseas but Aegon was at TOJ, as he was taken out of KL.(remember "Aegon" at KL is mutilated and they can't see his face) Take the King's children to safety, and take out the Prince's child and help Targaryens dinasty to survive. Well played by Varys.

Did I say anything about a coma? No. I said dead. As a nurse, I can tell you that these are two very fucking different things. Being dead will release Jon from his vows ("and now his watch is ended") but he will be resurrected.

Aemon may only believe that the prophecy regarding TPTWP is wrong about the gender of the person fulfilling the prophecy, because he doesn't know about Jon's parentage. Anyway, Aegon is fAegon. Also, simply because Aegon (if he were still alive) was born before Jon doesn't mean he's the one to fulfill the prophecy. If you'll recall from Dany's vision in the HoTU, Rhaegar says there needs to be yet another child after Aegon is born, because the dragon has three heads. That third child is Jon.

You think that Ned debated the KG at the ToJ? :stunned: :lol:

[Emerentiana_Zamora]

Does anyone know of a good way to present the evidence that R+L=J ...doesn't seem circumstantial?

what about this part of my question

[Consigliere]

what about this part of my question

If your brother is dead set in his belief then you may find it tough to convince him since nothing about R+L=J is explicitly stated. The theory is based largely on subtext, symbolism and foreshadowing. Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of the theory (linked in the 1st post of this thread).

[FittleLinger]

Yeah, if the Tower of the hand essay doesn't convince him, I doubt anything will. It's the most convincingly laid out compendium of evidence.

[Ygrain]

what about this part of my question

Eh... that's the difficult part :-)

Is he dead set on Ned being the father? Then ask him Apple Martini's test question: if the mother is Ashara, or Wylla, or the fisherman's daughter, what's so bloody secret about it that Ned refuses to tell Cat and Jon? And you can add Kit Harrington's slip of tongue: "Jone doesn't know who his parents are... who his mother is"

If he is wiling to admit that Ned is not the father, then you can try the timelines. Due to his looks, Jon is half-Stark. Born approximately within a month since the Sack, after a one-year lasting Rebellion. That rules out Brandon and Rickard as the fathers, Benjen is too young and has zero reason not to acknowledge Jon, that leaves Lyanna. Missing for over a year, and dying in "bed of blood", some time after the Sack.

Now, "bed of blood" has exactly three occurences in ASOIAF:

- in connection with Lyanna, where its meaning is not stated

- as "bloody bed" with Mirri Maz Duur, where the meaning is clearly established as birthing bed

- with Euron where "bed of blood" is again clearly established as birthing bed

[Emerentiana_Zamora]

Eh... that's the difficult part :-)

Is he dead set on Ned being the father? Then ask him Apple Martini's test question: if the mother is Ashara, or Wylla, or the fisherman's daughter, what's so bloody secret about it that Ned refuses to tell Cat and Jon? And you can add Kit Harrington's slip of tongue: "Jone doesn't know who his parents are... who his mother is"

If he is wiling to admit that Ned is not the father, then you can try the timelines. Due to his looks, Jon is half-Stark. Born approximately within a month since the Sack, after a one-year lasting Rebellion. That rules out Brandon and Rickard as the fathers, Benjen is too young and has zero reason not to acknowledge Jon, that leaves Lyanna. Missing for over a year, and dying in "bed of blood", some time after the Sack.

Now, "bed of blood" has exactly three occurences in ASOIAF:

- in connection with Lyanna, where its meaning is not stated

- as "bloody bed" with Mirri Maz Duur, where the meaning is clearly established as birthing bed

- with Euron where "bed of blood" is again clearly established as birthing bed

Can you get me a link of Kit Harrington's interview?

And with Ned being the father or not it varies from time to time.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Can you get me a link of Kit Harrington's interview?

And with Ned being the father or not it varies from time to time.

If I might ask, what is his own theory? Perhaps showing him first that the theory he believes in does not have (good) evidence, might help making him more susceptible to the R+L=J arguments?

[Emerentiana_Zamora]

Mostly Ned is the father with either Ashara, Wylla or the fisherman's daughter. And he thinks the reason Ned didn't tell Cat was because why make their relationship worse. Oh and a few months ago he was trying to tell me it was Ned and Lyanna.

[ArabellaVidal]

Mostly Ned is the father with either Ashara, Wylla or the fisherman's daughter. And he thinks the reason Ned didn't tell Cat was because why make their relationship worse. Oh and a few months ago he was trying to tell me it was Ned and Lyanna.

Whoa. The latter theory suggests no hope for your brother.

As far as why Ned never told Catelyn, in the event that it was Ashara, Wylla or the fisherman's daughter, it makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why would Martin withhold this information from his readers and even more strangely, why Ned couldn't tell Jon when he was going to the Wall. The secret of Jon's parentage will apparently have an enormous impact not just on Jon but also the readers.

I also recommend the Tower of the Hand essay.

[Emerentiana_Zamora]

Whoa. The latter theory suggests no hope for your brother.

I corrected him immediately. I thought he understood until he suggest a month or so latter that it could be Benjen and Lyanna.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Hello #80 :smoking:

[ArabellaVidal]

Why is it called Robert's Rebellion? Was it named thus after Robert had been crowned? After all, didn't the Starks have a bigger grievance against the king? Brandon and Rickard went to Aerys in order to lodge as complaint against Rhaegar not to start a war. The war presumably began because of their murder not because of Lyanna's alleged abduction. So why did Robert become the head of the Rebellion? And did he use the Stark murders as a convenient excuse to start a war because of his anger focused solely on punishing Rhaegar?

[ArabellaVidal]

I corrected him immediately. I thought he understood until he suggest a month or so latter that it could be Benjen and Lyanna.

As I said, no hope.

Jon is not bananas the way that the Lannisters and Targaryens are. There is less chance of him being the product of incest. Yes, Rhaegar was the product of incest but he's only one parent.

[MagnaStulta]

Rhaegar has won because he has Lyanna and I am stuck with her"-Robert Baratheon

How exactly would Rhaegar have any power over Lyanna in the afterlife? Earthly titles don't migrate with the deceased.

Even Robert at least in part knows that Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Rhaegar has won because he has Lyanna and I am stuck with her"-Robert Baratheon

How exactly would Rhaegar have any power over Lyanna in the afterlife? Earthly titles don't migrate with the deceased.

Even Robert at least in part knows that Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar.

I think Rhaegar told him before they battled. Like a final "fuck you". Of course, that enraged Robert even more and well... X_X

[Fagatron]

Who cares who his "real" daddy is. Ned raised him as his own! So what will it matter to Jon? Wouldn't he still be a bastard if R didn't marry L? He isn't going to leave the wall, if he is even alive? What a wonderful song it would make though, 'The Bastard at The Wall'.

But people will say the mother is very important.

So Jon's mother is L, most of us are in agreement about this, but it will not matter. Why you ask:

1. Jon is on the wall. He won't leave his brothers.

2. Jon might be dead soooo it still doesn't matter.

3. But Fagatron he will have a claim on Winterfell.

3-1. Hmm... Nope he doesn't. He isn't Ned's legitimate child. Of those that are still alive it is Sansa that Winterfell would go to.

4. Again, if R didn't marry L, he doesn't have a claim to the Iron Throne.

4-2. But this wouldn't matter as he is still on the wall and will always stay on the wall. He took his vows...

5. Hmm, isn't he dead???

6. Once it comes to light it better be so explosive that it makes sense for us to have been arguing this point for years.