R+L=J v.80

[MagnaStulta]

I think Rhaegar told him before they battled. Like a final "fuck you". Of course, that enraged Robert even more and well... X_X

That would explain why the smallfolk think of the battle as two men fighting for a woman's love, that would also explain why he starts loving her so much after she is dead.

[Fagatron]

Being dead will release Jon from his vows ("and now his watch is ended") but he will be resurrected.

So let's say this does happen would Jon accept this and leave the wall? I say this is horse poop. It wouldn't make sense based on the fact that Jon could have left the wall not once, not twice, but three times, and never accepted the chance. He won't leave his brothers on the wall. He is Lord Snow and always will be Lord Snow, commander of the NightWatch, till the day he dies however many times that may be!

[Dany's Silver]

So let's say this does happen would Jon accept this and leave the wall? I say this is horse poop. It wouldn't make sense based on the fact that Jon could have left the wall not once, not twice, but three times, and never accepted the chance. He won't leave his brothers on the wall. He is Lord Snow and always will be Lord Snow, commander of the NightWatch, till the day he dies however many times that may be!

Each of those times, Jon would have been forsworn as an oathbreaker. When the Night's Watch performs his funeral rites and says, "And now his watch his ended," he will be released from those vows. I also suspect that the Wall will fall in TWOW and there may no longer be a Night's Watch to be Lord Commander of at that point, and that's if he could still be Lord Commander (without retaking his vows). Anyway, things are going to get hairy before (or if) they get better at the end of ASoIaF.

[Fagatron]

Each of those times, Jon would have been forsworn as an oathbreaker. When the Night's Watch performs his funeral rites and says, "And now his watch his ended," he will be released from those vows. I also suspect that the Wall will fall in TWOW and there may no longer be a Night's Watch to be Lord Commander of at that point, and that's if he could still be Lord Commander (without retaking his vows). Anyway, things are going to get hairy before (or if) they get better at the end of ASoIaF.

The third time he wouldn't have been an Oath breaker. Stannis offered to legitimize Jon as Lord of Winterfell if he would support Stannis' rule. And he still refused. So why wouldn't he refuse a fourth time if he is given the kiss of light/fire? Jon is and will always be a black brother, the lord commander! If he is still alive!

[Dany's Silver]

The third time he wouldn't have been an Oath breaker. Stannis offered to legitimize Jon as Lord of Winterfell if he would support Stannis' rule. And he still refused. So why wouldn't he refuse a fourth time if he is given the kiss of light/fire? Jon is and will always be a black brother, the lord commander! If he is still alive!

Even if he was legitimized by Stannis, Jon would still be an Oathbreaker. I don't recall there being any fine print in the vows of the Night's Watch that says if a bastard is legitimized and offered a lordship, he's no longer an oathbreaker when he leaves the Night's Watch. I'm pretty sure Jon refused because he wanted to be a man of honour, and not an oathbreaker.

[ser charles candle]

I was doing a reread of agot. Maybe its just me but when Nedd is deciding Jon's future he says he doesn't want Jon snow going to KL because he was a bastard he would get treated bad and he wouldn't have a place in court. Those sound like pety excuses especially considering that if he stayed north with catelyn he would probably get treated worse. I feel as though Ned was trying to keep Jon away from the world. He would rather send him to the wall than to kl. I guess out of sight out of mind. PS I love nedd's line "he is my blood and that is all you need to know"

[Fagatron]

Even if he was legitimized by Stannis, Jon would still be an Oathbreaker. I don't recall there being any fine print in the vows of the Night's Watch that says if a bastard is legitimized and offered a lordship, he's no longer an oathbreaker when he leaves the Night's Watch. I'm pretty sure Jon refused because he wanted to be a man of honour, and not an oathbreaker.

Let's us say that if a King, we can argue the merits of Stannis' claim another time, were to declare you are absolved of your vows, you are absolved of them. And can no longer be considered an oath breaker. And if we look at what the vows truly mean to the men of the NW, we would see that it means shit! Actually less than shit! I'm sure you are smart enough to know that there is always a way around these vows.

And please don't put Honor and a stark bastard in the same sentence, we don't want him to be dead do we? Because we know how R.R. deals with Starks and their honor in the books.

[Dany's Silver]

Let's us say that if a King, we can argue the merits of Stannis' claim another time, were to declare you are absolved of your vows, you are absolved of them. And can no longer be considered an oath breaker. And if we look at what the vows truly mean to the men of the NW, we would see that it means shit! Actually less than shit! I'm sure you are smart enough to know that there is always a way around these vows.

And please don't put Honor and a stark bastard in the same sentence, we don't want him to be dead do we? Because we know how R.R. deals with Starks and their honor in the books.

You said if Stannis "legitimized" Jon, but made no mention of Stannis absolving him of his Night's Watch vows in your original post, so I responded accordingly. IIRC, vows have been absolved (or the offer has been put on the table) for certain things (being a maester), but never for leaving the Night's Watch. It seems that only death will suffice to end these particular vows, so yes, I do want Jon to be dead (at least temporarily). :P

[Ygrain]

Can you get me a link of Kit Harrington's interview?

And with Ned being the father or not it varies from time to time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Z6xYfw2Wdvw at about 1:30

Here also go some GRRM quotes:

Since all of their mothers died, who gave Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister their names?

Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Many_Questions2

5- Will we know in time, with certainty, the identity of Jon Snow's parents (I don't believe Edric Dayne's tale)? Personally, I really hope he's Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, despite looking so much like Eddard.

Jon's parentage will be revealed eventually, yes.

Who cares who his "real" daddy is. Ned raised him as his own! So what will it matter to Jon? Wouldn't he still be a bastard if R didn't marry L? He isn't going to leave the wall, if he is even alive? What a wonderful song it would make though, 'The Bastard at The Wall'.

But people will say the mother is very important.

So Jon's mother is L, most of us are in agreement about this, but it will not matter. Why you ask:

1. Jon is on the wall. He won't leave his brothers.

2. Jon might be dead soooo it still doesn't matter.

3. But Fagatron he will have a claim on Winterfell.

3-1. Hmm... Nope he doesn't. He isn't Ned's legitimate child. Of those that are still alive it is Sansa that Winterfell would go to.

4. Again, if R didn't marry L, he doesn't have a claim to the Iron Throne.

4-2. But this wouldn't matter as he is still on the wall and will always stay on the wall. He took his vows...

5. Hmm, isn't he dead???

6. Once it comes to light it better be so explosive that it makes sense for us to have been arguing this point for years.

A claim to Winterfell - he would, through Robb's will

A claim to IT - and if R+L did marry, he is the first in the succession line

The third time he wouldn't have been an Oath breaker. Stannis offered to legitimize Jon as Lord of Winterfell if he would support Stannis' rule. And he still refused. So why wouldn't he refuse a fourth time if he is given the kiss of light/fire? Jon is and will always be a black brother, the lord commander! If he is still alive!

He refused to break his vows for a personal gain. If defending the realms of men requires that he breaks his vows and leaves the wall, then that is what it takes - basically, a parallel to breaking the less important part of his vows with Ygritte to keep their spirit.

[Fagatron]

You said if Stannis "legitimized" Jon, but made no mention of Stannis absolving him of his Night's Watch vows in your original post, so I responded accordingly. IIRC, vows have been absolved (or the offer has been put on the table) for certain things (being a maester), but never for leaving the Night's Watch. It seems that only death will suffice to end these particular vows, so yes, I do want Jon to be dead (at least temporarily). :P

Even if he died, and is resurrected. He is still alive and the vows are still there. Death completely and fully releases you from your vows. Not being dead for a few moments, hours, or days and then being brought back to life. And I'm sure that if this is bought to Jon's attention he will stick with the NightWatch, where he BELONGS!

As to Stannis' offer, it is implicitly stated. Because you can't be Lord of Winterfell and a brother of the NW. So there was no reason to state something that is obvious, c'mon you are a smart person , no?

Finally to explicitly state why the vows mean nothing to any of the brothers that are currently alive, is that they have broken time and time again. Moletown visits, even Sam has broken them... But you might say the vows don't explicitly state you can't have sex with a woman. But it does implicitly state a brother, "... shall take no wife,...father no children." And the only way you can do either is by having sex with a woman. So vows mean shit! You can't have it both ways for Jon. Either he is an Honorable Bastard, a black brother, and lord commander, who lost his life? Or he can be... (You can insert what you like here). But he can't leave the wall without being an oath breaker based on what you stated.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'm a firm believer that Dolorous Edd is right and the Watch won't mind if you're dead: "'dying's no excuse for laying down no more, so get on up and take this spear, you've got first watch tonight"

[SerArthurHeath]

Anyone else talked about how we've seen one John (with an h) actually being of Targ bastard blood in disguise to protect him, Daemon Blackfyre II?

[Fagatron]

at about 1:30

Here also go some GRRM quotes:

Since all of their mothers died, who gave Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister their names?

Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Many_Questions2

5- Will we know in time, with certainty, the identity of Jon Snow's parents (I don't believe Edric Dayne's tale)? Personally, I really hope he's Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, despite looking so much like Eddard.

Jon's parentage will be revealed eventually, yes.

A claim to Winterfell - he would, through Robb's will

A claim to IT - and if R+L did marry, he is the first in the succession line

He refused to break his vows for a personal gain. If defending the realms of men requires that he breaks his vows and leaves the wall, then that is what it takes - basically, a parallel to breaking the less important part of his vows with Ygritte to keep their spirit.

Robb's will would mean nothing as long as Sansa, Brandon, Arya, and reckon are still alive. The North men would not follow a bastard when there are other Starks to rule. And that is if Jon wanted to be Lord of Winterfell, which he doesn't even want.

As to R+L, even if the marriage were to happen. Do you have really think Jon would want to take the IT? He doesn't even want Winterfell. And I'm sure Dany won't have some bastard impede her march for the IT.

Pray tell what would need to happen that would make him break his vows and still have some form of honor? He is the lord commander and he will not leave his post. Even if there was some type of loophole for him to be able to wiggle out of his vows. That is what makes Jon so damn frustrating for me to like, even more so with him always complaining about being a Bastard. His damn Honor.

[Ygrain]

Robb's will would mean nothing as long as Sansa, Brandon, Arya, and reckon are still alive. The North men would not follow a bastard when there are other Starks to rule. And that is if Jon wanted to be Lord of Winterfell, which he doesn't even want.

As to R+L, even if the marriage were to happen. Do you have really think Jon would want to take the IT? He doesn't even want Winterfell. And I'm sure Dany won't have some bastard impede her march for the IT.

Pray tell what would need to happen that would make him break his vows and still have some form of honor? He is the lord commander and he will not leave his post. Even if there was some type of loophole for him to be able to wiggle out of his vows. That is what makes Jon so damn frustrating for me to like, even more so with him always complaining about being a Bastard. His damn Honor.

Bran: attached to a weirnet

Rickon: a child at a time when it takes a man to lead - it's not like we haven't seen that situation before have we? Plus, the still alive part may change quite soon

Sansa and Arya: remember why Robb legitimized Jon? To put him ahead of Sansa because of her marriage to Tyrion

Dany: she is already having a pretender with a stronger claim coming

As for Jon and his honour, time for my favourite quote again:

"Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honour matters." (Javik, Mass Effect)

In other words, really desperate times require desperate means. If presented with the dilemma of preserving his honour versus preserving mankind, then Jon's personal honour apparently means nothing and he may be required to sacrifice it for the greater good.

I'm a firm believer that Dolorous Edd is right and the Watch won't mind if you're dead: "'dying's no excuse for laying down no more, so get on up and take this spear, you've got first watch tonight"

The Watch may not mind but the individual black brothers might have some issues with it :P

[Dany's Silver]

Even if he died, and is resurrected. He is still alive and the vows are still there. Death completely and fully releases you from your vows. Not being dead for a few moments, hours, or days and then being brought back to life. And I'm sure that if this is bought to Jon's attention he will stick with the NightWatch, where he BELONGS!

As to Stannis' offer, it is implicitly stated. Because you can't be Lord of Winterfell and a brother of the NW. So there was no reason to state something that is obvious, c'mon you are a smart person , no?

Finally to explicitly state why the vows mean nothing to any of the brothers that are currently alive, is that they have broken time and time again. Moletown visits, even Sam has broken them... But you might say the vows don't explicitly state you can't have sex with a woman. But it does implicitly state a brother, "... shall take no wife,...father no children." And the only way you can do either is by having sex with a woman. So vows mean shit! You can't have it both ways for Jon. Either he is an Honorable Bastard, a black brother, and lord commander, who lost his life? Or he can be... (You can insert what you like here). But he can't leave the wall without being an oath breaker based on what you stated.

Jon was already going to leave the Wall (which is what got him stabbed in the first place) to lead a party of wildlings to Winterfell, but his thoughts in that last POV chapter me think that Ygrain is right that Jon doesn't break his vows for personal gain. He's marching on Winterfell not to become Lord of Winterfell, but rather to save Arya (or so he thinks). He also thinks to himself after announcing to the wildlings and his brothers in the Shieldhall:

If this is oathbreaking, the crime is mine and mine alone. [Emphasis mine]

He's not convinced that this particular plan is treason (obviously, Bowen Marsh et al see it differently), and even if it is treason, (again Ygrain is right) honour be damned when he believes Arya is at stake. Maester Aemon was quite right in AGoT, "Love is the death of duty."

Once again:

I think the key point is that once Jon has had his funeral rites (which state clearly "And now his watch is ended"), he's not forsworn if he leaves the Wall (which may or may not even be standing after TWOW).

[Ygrain]

I love being right :-)

Plus, by marching at Winterfell and eliminating Boltons, Jon is securing the Watch, as well, because Ramsay demanded things that Jon wouldn't (handing over Selyse and Shireen) and couldn't (handing over Reek and fArya) do, so Castle Black might have been attacked and we know that it isn't built to withstand attacks.

On a side note: an epic piece of music with nice art: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzLLHiBi7PA

[Ygrain]

Anyone else talked about how we've seen one John (with an h) actually being of Targ bastard blood in disguise to protect him, Daemon Blackfyre II?

Yep, and quite a few of us wonder what colour would Jon's s eyes be if he wore something purple :-)

A related idea: in the South, with its warmer climate and brighter sun, might it be that a trace of purple could be seen in Jon's eyes and that's one of the reasons why Ned didn't want him in KL?

[Fagatron]

Bran: attached to a weirnet

Rickon: a child at a time when it takes a man to lead - it's not like we haven't seen that situation before have we? Plus, the still alive part may change quite soon

Sansa and Arya: remember why Robb legitimized Jon? To put him ahead of Sansa because of her marriage to Tyrion

Dany: she is already having a pretender with a stronger claim coming

As for Jon and his honour, time for my favourite quote again:

"Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honour matters." (Javik, Mass Effect)

In other words, really desperate times require desperate means. If presented with the dilemma of preserving his honour versus preserving mankind, then Jon's personal honour apparently means nothing and he may be required to sacrifice it for the greater good.

The Watch may not mind but the individual black brothers might have some issues with it :P

We go around and around... I'm quite tired of the ride...

Name one house in the North that would follow The bastard, if he wanted Winterfell, which he doesn't, when there are other Starks still alive.

You ask if I remembered why he put Jon ahead of Sansa but then answer the question for me. But you forget an important thing with those from the North and let me share with you now.

"The constant cold and the iron grip of winter set apart the northerners from the people of the kingdoms south of the Neck. Their whole life rests on the fact that winter is coming and they have to prepare themselves in order to survive it. The North's terrain and climate do not easily yield the necessities of daily life. In such an environment there is no place for hollow courtesies, courtly rituals, nor fancy culture and tourneys. The northmen have long memories. A lord who does not seek his rightful vengeance threatens to have his own men turn on him."

They are suffering after following Robb Stark, even if a will was paraded around given the bastard a claim on Winterfell. What lord that still has a sizeable force will follow the decree set by a man that fucked them over numerous times? I don't think so. But the bastard doesn't want this so this is a moot point.

There is nothing that Jon would be called to do that he can't do in Black, NOTHING. The wall is his life, the defending of the wall is his life.

As to Dany I could care about her. I only pointed her out as a major obstacle for the bastard to sit on the IT. Again, if he even wanted to, which he doesn't.

So I will leave you with a quote from Jeor in season one of GoT, 'When dead men and worse come hunting … you think it matters who sits on the Iron Throne?'

That is all the honor Jon needs is to defend the wall, the wall, the wall!

Long live Lord Commander Snow.

[Dany's Silver]

Yep, and quite a few of us wonder what colour would Jon's s eyes be if he wore something purple :-)

A related idea: in the South, with its warmer climate and brighter sun, might it be that a trace of purple could be seen in Jon's eyes and that's one of the reasons why Ned didn't want him in KL?

I could see a crafty man like Varys (with his own possibly hidden identity - perpetually shaved head anyone?) finding the presence of Ned's bastard son in KL an intriguing mystery to solve (or at least investigate). Given what Cersei orders done to Robert's bastards, imagine what she'd do to protect her own bastard son if Rhaegar Targaryen's legitimate heir were in the capitol.

Wow, that is a sweet picture of Jon and Ghost! Thanks for sharing, Ygrain.

Oh Fagatron The Wall, the Wall, the Wall will fall, fall, fall.

[The guy from the Vale]

As I said, no hope.

Jon is not bananas the way that the Lannisters and Targaryens are. There is less chance of him being the product of incest. Yes, Rhaegar was the product of incest but he's only one parent.

While incest worsens with each successive generation of incest, all it takes is one generation of non-incest to fully negate the effects of the previous incest. So, yeah...

Who cares who his "real" daddy is. Ned raised him as his own! So what will it matter to Jon? Wouldn't he still be a bastard if R didn't marry L? He isn't going to leave the wall, if he is even alive? What a wonderful song it would make though, 'The Bastard at The Wall'.

But people will say the mother is very important.

So Jon's mother is L, most of us are in agreement about this, but it will not matter. Why you ask:

1. Jon is on the wall. He won't leave his brothers.

2. Jon might be dead soooo it still doesn't matter.

3. But Fagatron he will have a claim on Winterfell.

3-1. Hmm... Nope he doesn't. He isn't Ned's legitimate child. Of those that are still alive it is Sansa that Winterfell would go to.

4. Again, if R didn't marry L, he doesn't have a claim to the Iron Throne.

4-2. But this wouldn't matter as he is still on the wall and will always stay on the wall. He took his vows...

5. Hmm, isn't he dead???

6. Once it comes to light it better be so explosive that it makes sense for us to have been arguing this point for years.

1. Ygrain is already tackling this. Jon may do it if it is necessary to protect the realms of men.

2. Let me quote GRRM: "Oh, you think he's dead, do you?"

3. It depends on the wording of Robb's will. If Robb named Jon his heir, he has a better claim than anyone.

4. All the clues hint at Jon being legitimate and, by extension, R and L being married. So, that counter is based on a premise that seems rather unlikely from just looking at the text.

5. See 2.

6. Even if only Jon ever hears about it, it has the potential to be explosive for him. His entire identity will be shattered. There's lots of potential for character development in that alone. The possible political consequences may be massive too, but there are tons of different opinions on that one on this board alone.