R+L=J v.80

[Fagatron]

Jon was already going to leave the Wall (which is what got him stabbed in the first place) to lead a party of wildlings to Winterfell, but his thoughts in that last POV chapter me think that Ygrain is right that Jon doesn't break his vows for personal gain. He's marching on Winterfell not to become Lord of Winterfell, but rather to save Arya (or so he thinks). He also thinks to himself after announcing to the wildlings and his brothers in the Shieldhall:

He's not convinced that this particular plan is treason (obviously, Bowen Marsh et al see it differently), and even if it is treason, (again Ygrain is right) honour be damned when he believes Arya is at stake. Maester Aemon was quite right in AGoT, "Love is the death of duty."

Once again:

I think the key point is that once Jon has had his funeral rites (which state clearly "And now his watch is ended"), he's not forsworn if he leaves the Wall (which may or may not even be standing after TWOW).

We are all in agreement that he would never leave the NW for personal gain. But we disagree on that by him dying and being resurrected, if that even happens, would absolve him of his duties to the wall. You say yes... I say no... I give points to show why he wouldn't. You give counters to say why he would. But we all forget that with ever time he has been tested with breaking his vows he comes back to the NW. How would him being being bought back from the dead make it any different from; the bothers bringing him back the first time, leaving the cave yegrid the second time, refusing Stannis' offer the third time... C'mon he gets pulled away from the wall just to be put right back onto the wall.

And if I have to entertain him being allowed this death loop hole. Then the Jon that returns won't be the Jon we have known these last 18 years.

[starki]

Sorry if the stuff below doesn't seem to follow from the discussion in this particular thread, but it's a response that didn't belong in the Oathkeeper episode thread. Cheers.

Did I say anything about a coma? No. I said dead. As a nurse, I can tell you that these are two very fucking different things. Being dead will release Jon from his vows ("and now his watch is ended") but he will be resurrected.

Aemon may only believe that the prophecy regarding TPTWP is wrong about the gender of the person fulfilling the prophecy, because he doesn't know about Jon's parentage. Anyway, Aegon is fAegon. Also, simply because Aegon (if he were still alive) was born before Jon doesn't mean he's the one to fulfill the prophecy. If you'll recall from Dany's vision in the HoTU, Rhaegar says there needs to be yet another child after Aegon is born, because the dragon has three heads. That third child is Jon.

You think that Ned debated the KG at the ToJ? :stunned: :lol:

Well, you said he needs to be dead to be free from his vows from NW but not dead since he is the heir to the Throne. Either he's dead or he's not. But he will most certainly be free of NW vows once the Others cross the Wall. NW will be destroyed so no more vows. He came back to NW after wanting to help Robb, after infiltrating the Wildlings and after Stannis offered him Winterfell. Notice a pattern ? Also, keep in mind he doesn't yet know Robb made him his heir.

We already had resurrection in Lady Stoneheart. Why pull the same trick twice ?

Aemon knows of the prophecy, and if the gender *is* wrong, then Jon isn't APTWP. If Aegon is older Jon's not the heir (even if R+J got married), again. Varys the staunch Targaryen loyalist says Aegon's the real deal, to the dying Kevan Lannister at the end of ADWD. You think he's bluffing ? Lying to a dead man ?

Third child... so he said. Well, it just so happens we have had three Targs in the series : Viserys, Aegon and Daenerys. One dead, one only just appearing, and the third child's story is one of the biggest in the books. She is a direct descentant of Aerys, like the witch said. And the one waking the dragons, which is proof according to Aemon.

Yes, he informed them of the events, and wondered why he hadn't seen them at the Trident, in KL with the King or at Dragonstone with Viserys. They are guarding Aegon, the heir to Rhaegar. The other alternative is they are guarding only Lyanna, maybe pregnant, who might have been married with Rhaegar, under the assumption the baby is a male heir.

[Ygrain]

We go around and around... I'm quite tired of the ride...

Name one house in the North that would follow The bastard, if he wanted Winterfell, which he doesn't, when there are other Starks still alive.

You ask if I remembered why he put Jon ahead of Sansa but then answer the question for me. But you forget an important thing with those from the North and let me share with you now.

"The constant cold and the iron grip of winter set apart the northerners from the people of the kingdoms south of the Neck. Their whole life rests on the fact that winter is coming and they have to prepare themselves in order to survive it. The North's terrain and climate do not easily yield the necessities of daily life. In such an environment there is no place for hollow courtesies, courtly rituals, nor fancy culture and tourneys. The northmen have long memories. A lord who does not seek his rightful vengeance threatens to have his own men turn on him."

They are suffering after following Robb Stark, even if a will was paraded around given the bastard a claim on Winterfell. What lord that still has a sizeable force will follow the decree set by a man that fucked them over numerous times? I don't think so. But the bastard doesn't want this so this is a moot point.

There is nothing that Jon would be called to do that he can't do in Black, NOTHING. The wall is his life, the defending of the wall is his life.

As to Dany I could care about her. I only pointed her out as a major obstacle for the bastard to sit on the IT. Again, if he even wanted to, which he doesn't.

So I will leave you with a quote from Jeor in season one of GoT, 'When dead men and worse come hunting … you think it matters who sits on the Iron Throne?'

That is all the honor Jon needs is to defend the wall, the wall, the wall!

Long live Lord Commander Snow.

If he is legitimized by their king's will, then he is a bastard no more, and the perception of Robb as a man who fucked the Northmen over is purely your conjecture. Plus, he is a Stark who looks like a carbon copy of The Ned - not exactly a small deal.

And there are quite a couple of things that Jon cannot do as a LC, for instance rallying Lords and their armies to the defence of Westeros, whereas as KitN or right from the IT. He might not actually sit it, it would be enough if he had followers and did the same what Stannis: put aside the squabbles and defend the realm, as a true king should.

We are all in agreement that he would never leave the NW for personal gain. But we disagree on that by him dying and being resurrected, if that even happens, would absolve him of his duties to the wall. You say yes... I say no... I give points to show why he wouldn't. You give counters to say why he would. But we all forget that with ever time he has been tested with breaking his vows he comes back to the NW. How would him being being bought back from the dead make it any different from; the bothers bringing him back the first time, leaving the cave yegrid the second time, refusing Stannis' offer the third time... C'mon he gets pulled away from the wall just to be put right back onto the wall.

And if I have to entertain him being allowed this death loop hole. Then the Jon that returns won't be the Jon we have known these last 18 years.

One more quote: "Kill the boy and let the man be born." The Jon we see now is not the same Jon who started the journey already.

[ArabellaVidal]

Whether or not Jon leaves the Night's Watch, whether he is interested in claiming the Iron Throne, Jon's parentage is central to the story. The most important battle in the books is the one that is coming from the far north. The Starks are people of ice and snow, strongly aligned with the old gods. The Targaryens are, as far as this story is concerned, people of fire and control the most deadly fire weapon of mass destruction. How can the revelation of Jon's being the son of a Targaryen and a Stark not have relevance for the reader? And how can such a revelation not strongly affect Jon, whatever he decides to practically do about it? Something of such a magnitude is bound to affect him emotionally and create massive conflict, both internal and external.

So yes. It is important. It will change the game. How can it not? This is GRRM.

[Fagatron]

I need a stiff drink and I don't even drink. The wall falling, the bastard being the Savior of the seven kingdoms by being brought back from the dead. The prophecies... Varys ultimate plannings, the soap opera that is R+L=J, Benjen Stark, Sansa, Arya, tyrion, Cersi, Tommen, story lines, ser pounce... How the hell can this be finished in Two books and allow all of your theories to be correct? Either these two books are 3k - 4k pages each. Or a lot of peoples theories are wrong. Many of us will probably be disappointed with what we find in the next two books, if they are ever finished.

[The guy from the Vale]

Aemon knows of the prophecy, but not of Jon. Dany is the last hope for TPTWP he sees, so he tries to bend the prophecy in order for it to fit.

Varys is not a staunch Targaryen loyalist. He, along with Illyrio, expected Dany and Viserys to die in the Dothraki sea. Varys is a Young Griff loyalist... and never confirms Young Griff is Aegon Rhaegarson Targaryen, only that his name is Aegon (well, duh). Yes, he is bluffing, as he always is. Not necessarily so much lying to a dead man, but lying to the little birds around him and trying to keep up the lie in all circumstances, much like LF tells Sansa to do.

Or they are guarding Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, the heir of Rhaegar after Aegon's death, and as such the heir to the throne (from a Targaryen perspective).

[SerArthurHeath]

It's gonna be more than 7 books. We all know it

[starki]

Yes, he is. Helped to swoop Daenerys and Viserys across the sea, and is also helping Aegon. He also said to Aerys not to open the doors for Tywinn.

The little birds aren't important, Kevan is. If Varys says Aegon is alive, I believe him. He doesn't have to say Young Griff = Aegon. We have Tyrion figuring that one out already.

“No.” The eunuch’s voice seemed deeper. “He is here. Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them.”

Or they are guarding Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, the heir of Rhaegar after Aegon's death, and as such the heir to the throne (from a Targaryen perspective).

Except Aegon's not dead, and we don't know Lyanna gave birth and that birth is the proof of her bleeding (maybe she tried to flee the Tower and got wounded. Maybe KG members were ordered not to let her out of the tower and one of them hurt her. Maybe Robert's more right than we think and Rhaegar was violent to her). We don't know that R+L were married.

Last but not least, even if this theory is real, why would Daenerys drop her life's quest and give up the heirloom to Westeros and marry anyone with a stronger claim to the IT ? She'll likely have to face Aegon, her nephew, at some point. Why would she bend the knee to, at best, half Targ who at this point is a illegitimate son anyway ?

[SerArthurHeath]

It is odd that the GC, those who despise Targs, would aid a Targ... Now, a Blackfyre...

[The guy from the Vale]

Yes, he is. Helped to swoop Daenerys and Viserys across the sea, and is also helping Aegon. He also said to Aerys not to open the doors for Tywinn.

The little birds aren't important, Kevan is. If Varys says Aegon is alive, I believe him. He doesn't have to say Young Griff = Aegon. We have Tyrion figuring that one out already.

“No.” The eunuch’s voice seemed deeper. “He is here. Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them.”

Varys and Illyrio had absolutely nothing to do with getting Dany and Viserys across the sea. That was Ser Willem Darry.Varys and Illyrio did not care for Dany and Viserys for 12 years until they saw a chance to marry off Dany to Drogo in order for him to invade Westeros once Dany died.

Sure Varys is helping Young Griff. I already said Varys is a Young Griff loyalist. I'm disputing that Young Griff is a Targaryen.

Aegon is alive... Aegon Blackfyre-Mopatis (or Aegon Brightfyre, or Aegon RandomLyseni...), that is. Aegon Targaryen is dead. Varys has always used that kind of oblique statements to mislead without lying. Believign Varys without looking for multiple meanings is utterly naive. Varys told Ned who killed Jon Arryn... but misled him into thinking it was someone else by making his description fit two people and talking about the one who didn't do it directly afterwards. Interestingly enough, he lowers his voice in that instant, too. Varys lowering his voice is not an indication of Varys being truthful. If anything, it is the opposite.

[Dany's Silver]

Well, you said he needs to be dead to be free from his vows from NW but not dead since he is the heir to the Throne. Either he's dead or he's not. But he will most certainly be free of NW vows once the Others cross the Wall. NW will be destroyed so no more vows. He came back to NW after wanting to help Robb, after infiltrating the Wildlings and after Stannis offered him Winterfell. Notice a pattern ? Also, keep in mind he doesn't yet know Robb made him his heir.

We already had resurrection in Lady Stoneheart. Why pull the same trick twice ?

Aemon knows of the prophecy, and if the gender *is* wrong, then Jon isn't APTWP. If Aegon is older Jon's not the heir (even if R+J got married), again. Varys the staunch Targaryen loyalist says Aegon's the real deal, to the dying Kevan Lannister at the end of ADWD. You think he's bluffing ? Lying to a dead man ?

Third child... so he said. Well, it just so happens we have had three Targs in the series : Viserys, Aegon and Daenerys. One dead, one only just appearing, and the third child's story is one of the biggest in the books. She is a direct descentant of Aerys, like the witch said. And the one waking the dragons, which is proof according to Aemon.

Yes, he informed them of the events, and wondered why he hadn't seen them at the Trident, in KL with the King or at Dragonstone with Viserys. They are guarding Aegon, the heir to Rhaegar. The other alternative is they are guarding only Lyanna, maybe pregnant, who might have been married with Rhaegar, under the assumption the baby is a male heir.

I think Jon's resurrection will be different from Lady Stoneheart (who is really only a vengeful shell of Catelyn), in that he will be quite changed. I think his death at the hands of Bowen Marsh et al will be the catalyst for him finally discovering his true identity (and that does not necessarily mean he will discover that he is AA/TPWWP) as Rhaegar's and most importantly Lyanna's son. As others have mentioned here, this knowledge will shatter his identity as a bastard. I rather think that Bran will be instrumental in this revelation.

<snip>

One more quote: "Kill the boy and let the man be born." The Jon we see now is not the same Jon who started the journey already.

Maester Aemon has always given Jon sound advice... I especially love how he lets Jon know that Stannis' sword is not Lightbringer, since it does not give off heat, only the glamour of light that Melisandre put in place.

Yes, he is. Helped to swoop Daenerys and Viserys across the sea, and is also helping Aegon. He also said to Aerys not to open the doors for Tywinn.

The little birds aren't important, Kevan is. If Varys says Aegon is alive, I believe him. He doesn't have to say Young Griff = Aegon. We have Tyrion figuring that one out already.

“No.” The eunuch’s voice seemed deeper. “He is here. Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them.”

Or they are guarding Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, the heir of Rhaegar after Aegon's death, and as such the heir to the throne (from a Targaryen perspective).

Except Aegon's not dead, and we don't know Lyanna gave birth.

I think Willem Darry is more instrumental in removing Viserys and Danaerys from Dragonstone than Varys, since this doesn't happen until months after the sack of King's Landing,

Yes, we do know that Lyanna gives birth. She dies in a "bed of blood," which is only associated with childbirth in ASoIaF (eg. MMD knows the secrets of the bloody bed). The fever which kills Lyanna commonly sets in 3-10 days after childbirth, and left untreated is most often fatal.

It is odd that the GC, those who despise Targs, would aid a Targ... Now, a Blackfyre...

This. :agree: I also think that Varys himself has a little Blackfyre in him; hence, his shaved head (think Aegon from Dunk and Egg) to prevent his hair colour from identifying his roots (pun intended).

[starki]

Varys and Illyrio had absolutely nothing to do with getting Dany and Viserys across the sea. That was Ser Willem Darry.Varys and Illyrio did not care for Dany and Viserys for 12 years until they saw a chance to marry off Dany to Drogo in order for him to invade Westeros once Dany died.

Sure Varys is helping Young Griff. I already said Varys is a Young Griff loyalist. I'm disputing that Young Griff is a Targaryen.

Aegon is alive... Aegon Blackfyre-Mopatis (or Aegon Brightfyre, or Aegon RandomLyseni...), that is. Aegon Targaryen is dead. Varys has always used that kind of oblique statements to mislead without lying. Believign Varys without looking for multiple meanings is utterly naive. Varys told Ned who killed Jon Arryn... but misled him into thinking it was someone else by making his description fit two people and talking about the one who didn't do it directly afterwards. Interestingly enough, he lowers his voice in that instant, too. Varys lowering his voice is not an indication of Varys being truthful. If anything, it is the opposite.

You really think Varys didn't get baby Aegon (aka Young Griff, as per Tyrion Lannister in ADWD) out of KL ? Or Daenerys and Viserys ? Arya hears him plotting with Illyrio Mopatis in GoT, planning for the Targaryen-led Khals to attack while Westeros is already at war.

Combined with the advice to Aerys just before the Sack of KL, and his working with Ilirio and Darry overseas, that's enough evidence for a Targ loyalist.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aegon_Blackfyre This one's dead.

Bed of blood ? It is used elsewhere in AGOT as childbirth, but not confirmed in Lyanna's case. Certainly Ned's memories don't mention any babies in TOJ... And that still leaves the issue of at least marriage, and thus Jon's legality to the claim to the Throne.

I think Jon is Ned+Ashara Dayne, and Wylla indeed was Jon's wetnurse, like Edric Dayne said, but not his real mother. (and Ned can readily give her name to Robert since it's a fake)

It would explain Ned's prayer which Bran sees in the books about "the boys growing up as brothers, and lady wife forgiving him" and Ned's great shame (if the promise is to bury Lyanna at home, he did that. Why the shame ? If the promise is to raise Jon at Winterfell, why the shame ? He did that. If the promise is to never reveal Jon's mother to anyone, he did that too, though we are getting closer. It has to deal with Ned personally) We know both Stark bros fancied Ashara at the Tournament. It would explain why Ned specifically takes Arthur's sword back from TOJ. Ashara is crushed to learn her lover killed her brother and leaps to hear death. Ned, then, takes Ashara's child and raises him at Winterfell. Obviously he will be haunted forever by the events, not telling Jon, Catelyn or anyone about the truth, and dishonouring Catelyn. Honour in the lie, as he protects Ashara's honour. Also recall his icy response to Catelyn, the one time he really frightened her

After the whispers from the rumour mill reach her ears of the beautiful Lady Ashara, she musters the courage to ask Ned about her. His response marks the first time that Catelyn is ever truly frightened of her husband. ‘“Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know.”’

Interesting choice of words there. He is my blood as oppposed to just "never talk about Jon" period, also Jon is said to look more like Ned than any other Stark child.

[SerArthurHeath]

He looks more like Arya, ie Lyanna, than any other Stark .

[SerArthurHeath]

And he is my blood is an interesting choice of words as it isn't "he is my son"

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Last but not least, even if this theory is real, why would Daenerys drop her life's quest and give up the heirloom to Westeros and marry anyone with a stronger claim to the IT ? She'll likely have to face Aegon, her nephew, at some point. Why would she bend the knee to, at best, half Targ who at this point is a illegitimate son anyway ?

If R+L=J, and if both Aegon and Jon are goog to fight for the IT, that does not automatically mean that Dany will bend the knee. Dany has her own believes, and if she believes both Aegon and Jon to not be true Targaryens, she won't drop her quest.

[SerArthurHeath]

3 way battle would be fun. I do however think that whilst R+L=J, J won't be fighting for the Iron Throne

[Ygrain]

You really think Varys didn't get baby Aegon (aka Young Griff, as per Tyrion Lannister in ADWD) out of KL ? Or Daenerys and Viserys ? Arya hears him plotting with Illyrio Mopatis in GoT, planning for the Targaryen-led Khals to attack while Westeros is already at war.

Combined with the advice to Aerys just before the Sack of KL, and his working with Ilirio and Darry overseas, that's enough evidence for a Targ loyalist.

Now, where is the Targaryen-led part stated? Dany was fully expected to die, and look at the way Illyrio interacts with Viserys, who, as a figurehead of an invasion, is totally useless. It is the Golden Company that expects the Dothraki to join them, and who enters the scene with GC? JonCon and Young Griff.

Bed of blood ? It is used elsewhere in AGOT as childbirth, but not confirmed in Lyanna's case. Certainly Ned's memories don't mention any babies in TOJ... And that still leaves the issue of at least marriage, and thus Jon's legality to the claim to the Throne.

And how do you think the meaning of unknown words and phrases is established? You get an occurence in a context where the meaning is clear, and check if it fits with other uses. If it does, you have your meaning, you don't need it confirmed in every single case.

I think Jon is Ned+Ashara Dayne, and Wylla indeed was Jon's wetnurse, like Edric Dayne said, but not his real mother. (and Ned can readily give her name to Robert since it's a fake)

So, when, where and how did Ned and Ashara hook up during the Rebellion, and how come that the best the Winterfell staff and soldiers who have been with him the whole war is the old rumour of Harrenhal or the trip to Starfall, with nothing in between?

It would explain Ned's prayer which Bran sees in the books about "the boys growing up as brothers, and lady wife forgiving him" and Ned's great shame (if the promise is to bury Lyanna at home, he did that. Why the shame ? If the promise is to raise Jon at Winterfell, why the shame ? He did that. If the promise is to never reveal Jon's mother to anyone, he did that too, though we are getting closer. It has to deal with Ned personally) We know both Stark bros fancied Ashara at the Tournament. It would explain why Ned specifically takes Arthur's sword back from TOJ. Ashara is crushed to learn her lover killed her brother and leaps to hear death. Ned, then, takes Ashara's child and raises him at Winterfell. Obviously he will be haunted forever by the events, not telling Jon, Catelyn or anyone about the truth, and dishonouring Catelyn. Honour in the lie, as he protects Ashara's honour. Also recall his icy response to Catelyn, the one time he really frightened her

Why the shame? He has been lying to everyone, he has been hurting both Cat and Jon by the situation he got them into, he's been committing treason to his friend and king, and denying Jon his true name and heritage.

[starki]

He looks more like Arya, ie Lyanna, than any other Stark .

And Arya isn't Lyanna's daughter.

Straight from Wiki: Even at age fourteen, Jon is said to have more Stark-like features than any of his sibling

[starki]

Now, where is the Targaryen-led part stated?

Straight up from Wikipedia.

And how do you think the meaning of unknown words and phrases is established? You get an occurence in a context where the meaning is clear, and check if it fits with other uses. If it does, you have your meaning, you don't need it confirmed in every single case.

We don't know that it does fit, though. No TOJ memory/story ever brings up any children.

So, when, where and how did Ned and Ashara hook up during the Rebellion, and how come that the best the Winterfell staff and soldiers who have been with him the whole war is the old rumour of Harrenhal or the trip to Starfall, with nothing in between?

That is the secret, isn't it ? Given how in love they were, you think they didn't meet any more after the Tournament ? After the marraige to Catelyn ? (Robb is older than Jon)

Why the shame? He has been lying to everyone, he has been hurting both Cat and Jon by the situation he got them into, he's been committing treason to his friend and king, and denying Jon his true name and heritage.

Like I said...the shame is not about bringing Lyanna's bones home, or raising Jon at Winterfell. It's about not revealing his parents and honouring Ashara. And yes, obviously hurting Jon and Catelyn. Setting aside the true love because he's already married with a son.

[LordStoneheart]

starki, if Jon looks like Arya, and Arya looks like Lyanna, then Jon looks like Lyanna. (a=b, b=c, a=c)