R+L=J v.80

[The guy from the Vale]

You really think Varys didn't get baby Aegon (aka Young Griff, as per Tyrion Lannister in ADWD) out of KL ? Or Daenerys and Viserys ? Arya hears him plotting with Illyrio Mopatis in GoT, planning for the Targaryen-led Khals to attack while Westeros is already at war.

Combined with the advice to Aerys just before the Sack of KL, and his working with Ilirio and Darry overseas, that's enough evidence for a Targ loyalist.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aegon_Blackfyre This one's dead.

Bed of blood ? It is used elsewhere in AGOT as childbirth, but not confirmed in Lyanna's case. Certainly Ned's memories don't mention any babies in TOJ... And that still leaves the issue of at least marriage, and thus Jon's legality to the claim to the Throne.

I think Jon is Ned+Ashara Dayne, and Wylla indeed was Jon's wetnurse, like Edric Dayne said, but not his real mother. (and Ned can readily give her name to Robert since it's a fake)

It would explain Ned's prayer which Bran sees in the books about "the boys growing up as brothers, and lady wife forgiving him" and Ned's great shame (if the promise is to bury Lyanna at home, he did that. Why the shame ? If the promise is to raise Jon at Winterfell, why the shame ? He did that. If the promise is to never reveal Jon's mother to anyone, he did that too, though we are getting closer. It has to deal with Ned personally) We know both Stark bros fancied Ashara at the Tournament. It would explain why Ned specifically takes Arthur's sword back from TOJ. Ashara is crushed to learn her lover killed her brother and leaps to hear death. Ned, then, takes Ashara's child and raises him at Winterfell. Obviously he will be haunted forever by the events, not telling Jon, Catelyn or anyone about the truth, and dishonouring Catelyn. Honour in the lie, as he protects Ashara's honour. Also recall his icy response to Catelyn, the one time he really frightened her

After the whispers from the rumour mill reach her ears of the beautiful Lady Ashara, she musters the courage to ask Ned about her. His response marks the first time that Catelyn is ever truly frightened of her husband. ‘“Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know.”’

Interesting choice of words there. He is my blood as oppposed to just "never talk about Jon" period, also Jon is said to look more like Ned than any other Stark child.

The shame is because he dishonored Catelyn in the eyes of men by seemingly cheating on her when he never did. The shame is because he is lying to Robert, his friend and king, about Jon's parentage, committing high treason in the process and endangering his entire family by doing so. The shame is because he never got around to telling Jon who his parents were. Ned is not proud of what he did, because it was not honorable, because it hurt all those involved, and because he endangered his entire family - but he did all that because it was the right thing to do.

[Ygrain]

Like I said...the shame is not about bringing Lyanna's bones home, or raising Jon at Winterfell. It's about not revealing his parents and honouring Ashara. And yes, obviously hurting Jon and Catelyn. Setting aside the true love because he's already married with a son.

The shame is because he dishonored Catelyn in the eyes of men by seemingly cheating on her when he never did. The shame is because he is lying to Robert, his friend and king, about Jon's parentage, committing high treason in the process and endangering his entire family by doing so. The shame is because he never got around to telling Jon who his parents were. Ned is not proud of what he did, because it was not honorable, because it hurt all those involved, and because he endangered his entire family - but he did all that because it was the right thing to do.

What theguyfromthevale said and what I said above.

[Deadwood]

What is honourable in that situation is debatable. Ned would have felt worse if Rob had killed the babe and forced Ned into defending his family, possibly continuing the war. If the theory is true then the most noblest course is the one that Ned took, though it meant he lived a lie, which was what weighed the heaviest on him.

[Winterfell's Revenge]

And he is my blood is an interesting choice of words as it isn't "he is my son"

Even more interesting phrasing when taken together with the following:

Ned thought, "If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do?"

Very interesting how he DOES NOT list Jon. He lists every child he has EXCEPT Jon. Either he doesn't care at all about Jon or Jon is not his child. Sounds like the latter to me because Ned obviously cares about Jon.

[LordStoneheart]

I bet this has been mentioned before but I thought it was interesting that Catelyn thinks that because Eddard never told her Jon's mom he must have really loved her. The first woman we get a reference to Eddard loving with all his heart is Lyanna.

[Winterfell's Revenge]

I bet this has been mentioned before but I thought it was interesting that Catelyn thinks that because Eddard never told her Jon's mom he must have really loved her. The first woman we get a reference to Eddard loving with all his heart is Lyanna.

Nice observation!

[FrozenFire3]

It's almost poetic the way people still cling to wishful thinking lol

Alas truth will out sooner than expected (cough *hbo* cough) and GRRM has already paved the way:

Benioff and Weiss later said that during that meeting you asked them who they think Jon Snow's mother was, which is one of the earliest — and seemingly one of the central — mysteries in A Song of Ice and Fire.
I did ask that at one point, just to see how closely they'd read the text.

Did they get it right?
They answered correctly.

Some readers, I think, would also ask who Jon Snow's father truly is, even though Jon was always claimed to be Ned Stark's bastard son.
[Martin smiles] On this I shall not speak. I shall maintain my enigmatic silence, until I get to it in the books.

Source

Ned and Ashara indeed ;)

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

It's almost poetic the way people still cling to wishful thinking lol

Alas truth will out sooner than expected (cough *hbo* cough) and GRRM has already paved the way:

Source

Ned and Ashara indeed ;)

If ever a pair of statements served the prove the lie of rumors and red herrings from the text, those two are it.

Hmmm.... Jon's mother is a mystery? Then surely it isn't any of the people alluded to in the text ;)

And Ned being Jon's father is hardly "enigmatic silence" as it only says that about a thousand times the text :p

[Han Snow]

And if I have to entertain him being allowed this death loop hole. Then the Jon that returns won't be the Jon we have known these last 18 years.

Wow. I am not the same man I was 18 years ago, nor if I live 18 more, will I be the same man I am now. That is true for each and every human being alive on this planet. We all change, in smaller ways or in big ways, but we all change. And while it seems that you care about the character of Jon Snow in this saga, you sadly miss all the subtle little nuances about him, but also some of the big, important stuff that George has so wonderfully intertwined throughout his chapters.

“No.” The eunuch’s voice seemed deeper. “He is here. Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them.”

This quote says a lot about Varys. I'd argue that it tells us much more about him than it actually says about Aegon.

It directly informs us of the picture Varys has painted in his head about what he thinks WHO Aegon IS. It seems that all knowing, all cunning Varys has fallen into the illusion he helped create. He unlike Littlefinger doesn't revel or desire chaos. No, he has actively been working toward establishing what he thinks will bring TRUE order, yes using a little bit of chaos, but all for the greater good in his mind. He wants a good, just king, who will understand his people and bring them prosperity. And he has made himself believe that Aegon Blackfyre, probably his blood relative, is the one to bring that order and peace.

What I expect in the next books is Varys sobering up to the reality of things. I expect Aegon to be a vain, pompous little brat, desiring power and not caring all that much about the smallfolk and such. Not exactly the good, just king Varys has in mind. The question is: Will Varys stick with him till the bitter end or will he jump ship when a certain queen shows up, or even possibly when the TRUE king with all those qualities he sees in Aegon finally emerges from the blackness as the one who should be followed.

It is also funny to compare and parallel Ned and Varys. Ned installed all the true values a person should have into the real heir to the throne, but never intended for him to rule. While Varys tried to do the same with a fake but always intending for him to be a king one day. One doesn't know he is the true heir, while the other believes it is his right, when it's not. And so on...

[AnotherCrannogman]

What if Jon is actually dead?

[FrozenFire3]

If ever a pair of statements served the prove the lie of rumors and red herrings from the text, those two are it.

Hmmm.... Jon's mother is a mystery? Then surely it isn't any of the people alluded to in the text ;)

And Ned being Jon's father is hardly "enigmatic silence" as it only says that about a thousand times the text :P

More than this, there's only spelling it out, nice and slow ;)

From the very same outtakes, the following passage stands out:

In a long series, readers who loved the early books may envision the story going in certain directions. Often those directions are wildly divergent. When the later books actually come out, some of those readers are inevitably going to be upset, because the story on the page does not correspond with the one in their heads. Others may be delighted. I have lost readers with every book, I am sure... but I've gained a lot more. The fifth volume, A Dance with Dragons, was far and away the most popular in the series. In any case, no, it's not something I worry about. When this question came up on my Not A Blog a few years ago, I embedded a clip from Rick Nelson singing "Garden Party. "You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself. Truer words were seldom sung.

In short: deal with it LOL

What if Jon is actually dead?

If he were dead, how could he eventually get to know about his true parentage? Source

[SerArthurHeath]

If Jon were actually dead, as I think he is, then there are several plot devices specific to him that would make it possible for that to not be permanent!

[AnotherCrannogman]

Kai, su tekmon-

Not sure if my quote worked correctly, but that said, George says on page 4 of the chat you source that:

"Sorry, but while I'm glad to answer questions, I'm not going to reveal anything that happen in future books and certainly not the fates of major characters"

I see no mention of Jon determining or finding his parentage. I might have missed it though, on what page is GRRM response that says that?

[FrozenFire3]

Kai, su tekmon-

Not sure if my quote worked correctly, but that said, George says on page 4 of the chat you source that:

"Sorry, but while I'm glad to answer questions, I'm not going to reveal anything that happen in future books and certainly not the fates of major characters"

I see no mention of Jon determining or finding his parentage. I might have missed it though, on what page is GRRM response that says that?

Page 2:

I have a million questions, but the one that I really am most wanting to know is.... will Jon ever find out about his parentage?

Eventually, yes.

[AnotherCrannogman]

Thanks.

Certainly interesting.

[ser charles candle]

Ten bucks says Faegon's coin lands on the wrong side.

[starki]

starki, if Jon looks like Arya, and Arya looks like Lyanna, then Jon looks like Lyanna. (a=b, b=c, a=c)

Then Lyanna surely is the mother of both Arya and Jon. It doesn't work like that. Wikipedia :

Even at age fourteen, Jon is said to have more Stark-like features than any of his siblings. Jon has a lean build, with dark brown hair and grey eyes so dark they border on black. He is graceful and quick.^[3] Tyrion Lannister notes that Jon has the traditional Stark face in everything but name— long, solemn and guarded— a face that gives nothing away. He remarks to himself that whoever Jon's mother was, she left little of herself in her son's appearance.^[4] Arya Stark is said to resemble Jon the most of the Stark children

[starki]

The shame is because he dishonored Catelyn in the eyes of men by seemingly cheating on her when he never did. The shame is because he is lying to Robert, his friend and king, about Jon's parentage, committing high treason in the process and endangering his entire family by doing so. The shame is because he never got around to telling Jon who his parents were. Ned is not proud of what he did, because it was not honorable, because it hurt all those involved, and because he endangered his entire family - but he did all that because it was the right thing to do.

If it's all just a big cover up and Ned really isn't Jon's father, why does he continue to feel such shame 14 years after the events of TOJ ? And he regrets not telling Jon and Catelyn mostly, not so much Robert.

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, a sorrow too deep for words.

I hope the boys grow up as brothers, and may my lady wife forgive me.

Sounds a lot deeper than a mere regret about a lie. It strikes me more as a man covering up for his own deeds.

Why not, in private at Winterfell, clear it up to his wife ?

Given that Jon has that Stark look all over, and if he is Lyanna's son, why not tell Robert given he has won and defeated Targ dinasty ?

Yes, Robert said "dragon spawn" upon the sight of Aegon and Rhaenys bodies but this is Lyanna's child. He can get his victory over Rhaegar by raising and claiming the son as his own.

[starki]

I bet this has been mentioned before but I thought it was interesting that Catelyn thinks that because Eddard never told her Jon's mom he must have really loved her. The first woman we get a reference to Eddard loving with all his heart is Lyanna.

Well, yeah. Hint hint.

[starki]

Even more interesting phrasing when taken together with the following:

Very interesting how he DOES NOT list Jon. He lists every child he has EXCEPT Jon. Either he doesn't care at all about Jon or Jon is not his child. Sounds like the latter to me because Ned obviously cares about Jon.

Isn't Jon at the NW by now unlike rest of the kids in KL and Winterfell ? I think that is why he isn't mentioned.