Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Starspear

Will the real Aegon please stand up?

258 posts in this topic

CAVEAT: Theory in the working

Current level: Semi-Crackpot.

Status: Missing data, still dealing with contradictions (namely Elia and Timeline). Still exploring.

Feasibility: reviewing new evidence...

FUBAR delayed... looking into new evidence. STAND-BY.

PREMISE: Jon Snow IS Aegon Targaryen, son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. Elia's son died at birth/maybe also an Aegon/stillborn/other explanation.

Why?

House of the Undying vision:

The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”
“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.
“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

Key phrase: His is the song of ice and fire.

Notes: The woman in the bed is Lyanna. She is strong as she nurses the child, not weak (Elia is described as sickly and had almost died during the birth). There is romance to the mood. A son of Dragons and Dorne is not Ice and Fire. A son of the North and Dragons, is a son of Ice and Fire. The scene takes place at the Tower of Joy.

Below spoiler I feel is a real spoiler (regardless of if this theory is correct... it's saying something):

Why was the Rhaegar scene not included in the HBO show? Because TV is a

visual medium. You cannot as easily hide your characters in a visual medium as you can with words. A "woman" has to be cast and shown (granted she could be in the shadows and her voice garbled, but I'm sure you understand).

If the vision showed Lyanna and Rhaegar... Mystery is over. Done. The reveal is right in our face. That's why they did NOT show the Rhaeger vision in the HotU in the show... because the vision is of Rhaegar and Lyanna and Aegon AKA JON SNOW!

Timeline:

281 AC: Tourney of Harrenhal. Rhaegar falls in love with Lyanna.

282 AC: A year later, Rhaegar apparently kidnapps Lyanna, for reasons unknown. Begin RR. Assumption Lyanna is pregnant.

282 AC: Elia's Aegon birth. Note: Elia was bedridden for half a year after giving birth to Rhaenys and nearly died giving birth to Aegon.

282 AC (NEW EDIT): A comet was seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived - not to be confused with birth. Conception is the fertilization.

283 AC: SEE POST #89 for Jon Snow birth estimates.

283 AC: Lyanna dies at ToJ. She is in a pool of blood in Ned's dream. Current theories sensibly assume death in childbirth. No proof that is the case however.

283 AC: Ned goes to Starfall to return Dawn. Ashara commits suicide because of dead brother; stillborn child. Jon Snow in Starfall. Shares Wylla, wetnurse of Edric Dayne.

284 AC: Daenerys Stormborn birth. (see post #9 & #11). “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say.

Variables:

- Twins (Jon Snow/Faegon)

- Ashara's role in the conspiracy

- Ashara's stillborn was the hidden child

- switch at birth (Gilly-Dalla switch as precedent to foreshadow; see below posts 2&4)

- Aegon rhymes with Jon (joke)

Scratchpad:

- Three Heads:

1st: Mance Rayder....or Elia's son... still working it out...

2nd: Aegon Targaryen aka Jon Snow.

3rd: Daenerys Targaryen

Potential Conspiracy:

Ashara travels with the "stillborn" Aegon/Jon. Wetnurse in Starfall feeds Jon. Ned makes story to travel down to Starfall. Returns sword. Real mission: Pick up Jon. Ashara "jumps into the ocean" to protect herself and invents a new identity. Ned returns to Winterfell with baby, a story, and alibis. Names kid Jon Snow.

Alternatives:

Rhaegar names both his kids Aegon. Aegon with Elia. And Aegon with Lyanna... sounds weird, but done before.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure if this could be true but I like the idea of John and aegon being switched at birth. Was that what you're getting at? If Ashara is in fact septa Lenore then she'd be like gilly with the whole raising a kid that wasn't yours in order to protect royalty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lyanna died of a fever, it certainly wasn't childbirth. Ned's POV confirms that much



Otherwise not bad



I definitely think there is room for Lyanna to have been the one in the bed and not Elia as what you say makes a deal of sense



HOWEVER



That means Rhaegar named two of his sons Aegon >.>


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure if this could be true but I like the idea of John and aegon being switched at birth. Was that what you're getting at? If Ashara is in fact septa Lenore then she'd be like gilly with the whole raising a kid that wasn't yours in order to protect royalty.

Yes, exactly - or at least something like that. I had not thought of Gilly! But that would be a perfect way for GRRM to set a precendent to help explain a future reveal.

Yes, I have a separate thread on the theory Ashara = Lemore. Although I don't think this one is solid enough to combine just yet... it potentially explains motivation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lyanna died of a fever, it certainly wasn't childbirth. Ned's POV confirms that much

Otherwise not bad

I definitely think there is room for Lyanna to have been the one in the bed and not Elia as what you say makes a deal of sense

HOWEVER

That means Rhaegar named two of his sons Aegon >.>

One's Aegon Targaryen, the other is Aegon Snow? Waters? Sand?

Maybe one was Juan Aegon and the other one was Pedro Aegon (hey, I've seen cases like this, specially in twins...!). :dunno:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lyanna died of a fever, it certainly wasn't childbirth. Ned's POV confirms that much

Otherwise not bad

I definitely think there is room for Lyanna to have been the one in the bed and not Elia as what you say makes a deal of sense

HOWEVER

That means Rhaegar named two of his sons Aegon >.>

Yes... but not impossible... and it's been done before.

And if Lyanna died of a fever... actual time of birth fluctuates.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes... but not impossible... and it's been done before.

And if Lyanna died of a fever... actual time of birth fluctuates.

Yeah she definitely died in the weeks after the birth, considering Jon is born right around the sack of KL. It's not farfetched at all to assume it was complication due to the birth, but yeah she definitely died of a fever and not the birthing process itself.

I'm still in the camp that Jon is Ned's bastard though soo.....

Another problem is that Jon wouldn't be king unless Aegon died, as he had already been born for awhile, so unless Rhaegar was planning on naming a different successor than his first born son (not without precedent in any case) that's a wrench thrown in

Also there are the keywords "There must be one more" and Aegon had been born already, unless he wasn't counting Rhaenys lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah she definitely died in the weeks after the birth, considering Jon is born right around the sack of KL. It's not farfetched at all to assume it was complication due to the birth, but yeah she definitely died of a fever and not the birthing process itself.

I'm still in the camp that Jon is Ned's bastard though soo.....

Another problem is that Jon wouldn't be king unless Aegon died, as he had already been born for awhile, so unless Rhaegar was planning on naming a different successor than his first born son (not without precedent in any case) that's a wrench thrown in

Also there are the keywords "There must be one more" and Aegon had been born already, unless he wasn't counting Rhaenys lol

Elia's Aegon is an impediment in many ways to this theory making sense. But there are unknowns to the whole shebang.

Also - why would Elia's Aegon be of Ice and Fire? Makes no sense. The warmth of the scene is also difficult to equate from what we know of Rhaegar and Elia (from what we know of her and childbirth).

I initially took "There must be one more" to be Jon Snow like I think many others.... but now, not sure. If Jon = Aegon. There must be one more would indicate someone else. And the dragon has three heads...hmm...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Elia's Aegon is an impediment in many ways to this theory making sense. But there are unknowns to the whole shebang.

Also - why would Elia's Aegon be of Ice and Fire? Makes no sense. The warmth of the scene is also difficult to equate from what we know of Rhaegar and Elia (from what we know of her and childbirth).

I initially took "There must be one more" to be Jon Snow like I think many others.... but now, not sure. If Jon = Aegon. There must be one more would indicate someone else. And the dragon has three heads...hmm...

Remember Daenerys wasn't born yet. She could be the third in that scenario.

I don't really see how the woman's interactions with Rhaegar indicate that she was strong, and I think there might be an SSM confirming that the woman in the vision was Elia. Could be wrong on that though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To add to your theory Starspear, there's something I've just noticed in the paragragh you quoted:

Sweet sadness filled the room

Which is similar to:

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness

Could be something, could just be me over analysing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Remember Daenerys wasn't born yet. She could be the third in that scenario.

I don't really see how the woman's interactions with Rhaegar indicate that she was strong, and I think there might be an SSM confirming that the woman in the vision was Elia. Could be wrong on that though.

You're right! And in fact the passage extended goes as follows: “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her [Daenerys] or the woman in the bed she could not say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To add to your theory Starspear, there's something I've just noticed in the paragragh you quoted:

Sweet sadness filled the room

Which is similar to:

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness

Could be something, could just be me over analysing

Could definitely be a motif...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I second the idea that if Jon is a secret targ (and let's hope the only secret targ), his name is NOT Jon. I don't think Lyanna would pick such a name, and Rheagar most definitely wouldn't.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Remember Daenerys wasn't born yet. She could be the third in that scenario.

I don't really see how the woman's interactions with Rhaegar indicate that she was strong, and I think there might be an SSM confirming that the woman in the vision was Elia. Could be wrong on that though.

Uh so once again

Just casting out Rhaenys and Viserys for no reason lol?

They also had no idea Dany even would be born, as she was conceived the night before Aerys wife leaves KL for dragonstone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Uh so once again

Just casting out Rhaenys and Viserys for no reason lol?

They also had no idea Dany even would be born, as she was conceived the night before Aerys wife leaves KL for dragonstone.

You're referring to the 3 heads of the dragon? The three heads do not need to be in order of birth... just the ones that matter.

Viserys and Rhaenys are both dead unambiguously and never come back up in the story.

Saying it again, the three heads are not any Targs, or Targs in order of seniority, but the three Targs that matter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Rhaegar thought the "three heads of the dragon" would born from the same generation, meaning, he thought that making three children would fit the prophecy or at least give it more chance to come to fruition. If you think about it, it makes sense, because he would raise and teach those kids what it was needed for them to become the heroes he thought the prophecy would required them to be. Having three children also puts him in control of whatever they would need in order to fulfil any prophecy, something he wouldn't be able to do with Viserys, for instance, despite the fact they were only two.



It didn't matter at the end, though. Her daughter died and probably also his only son. The prophecy fulfilled by itself because he got a child from Lyanna, and that caused Aerys to rape Rhaella and conceive Dany. If Aegon is real, there are the three heads.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Rhaegar thought the "three heads of the dragon" would born from the same generation, meaning, he thought that making three children would fit the prophecy or at least give it more chance to come to fruition. If you think about it, it makes sense, because he would raise and teach those kids what it was needed for them to become the heroes he thought the prophecy would required them to be. Having three children also puts him in control of whatever they would need in order to fulfil any prophecy, something he wouldn't be able to do with Viserys, for instance, despite the fact they were only two.

It didn't matter at the end, though. Her daughter died and probably also his only son. The prophecy fulfilled by itself because he got a child from Lyanna, and that caused Aerys to rape Rhaella and conceive Dany. If Aegon is real, there are the three heads.

I think this passage is more than it appears:

Rhaegar: “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her [Daenerys] or the woman in the bed she could not say.

There is no way to know just exactly what Rhaegar knew, because GRRM is still keeping that card hidden.

For this thread, I'm currently seeing it as:

- 1st Head Unknown. Maybe Rhaegar thought he was the first.

- 2nd Head: Aegon "Jon Snow" Targaryen

- 3rd Head: Daenerys Stormborn Targaryen.

F/Aegon is a Blackfyre scion/Illyrio's son/maybe the first born Aegon and hence the 1st head... but I don't think so. The whole thing is fishy and GRRM's early draft with the Blackfyre passages and all... but I digress.

Before I fully adhere to my own theory... the 1st head and Elia's son, have to at least make some sense.

I see more nebulous connections, which I'll withhold for the moment till then make more sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really like that you noticed that Elia was supposed to be near death after the birth and in the vision the woman with Rhaegar was coherent and fine.



I never noticed that myself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rhaegar thought he was the Prince, but he later dismissed (M. Aemon said so). I think when his daughter was born he started to think his children would be important, that's why he named the first two Rhaenys and Aegon. Considering Aegon was his first son, he assumed he would be "the one", with Rhaenys as his wife and the other kid, either his second at command or his wife.



Rhaegar is dead, though. Also Rhaenys. He misunderstood the prophecy but he indirectly caused two more heads, Jon and Dany. Maybe Aegon is another one or many, dunno, Stannis.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really like that you noticed that Elia was supposed to be near death after the birth and in the vision the woman with Rhaegar was coherent and fine.

I never noticed that myself.

Thank you. I think that the reason this went unnoticed... is the "Aegon" throws us off... I got to thinking about this when I was mocking Jon's name (as un-Targaryen). Then when I re-read the passage by happenstance... that's when it hit me... the Aegon in question is Jon. Elia was bedridden for half a year after giving birth to Rhaenys and nearly died giving birth to Aegon (and was told she'd never bear again).... the woman in the scene was coherent and conversational. And then, the ICE and FIRE.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites