Will the real Aegon please stand up?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Here is the SSM: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/II_511_512_The_Dragon_Has_Three_Heads

see where it says "confirmed my [sic] Martin.

This was the one that Helaena posted. So it is confirmed.

[Starspear]

It is an intriguing idea, that Jon and Lyanna are in the vision and not Elia and Aegon. I hadn't before thought about the fact that clearly Jon was not the name Lyanna would have given Rhaegar's son and what then must she have named him and how important would that be to the story if at all? This I find an interesting thought.

As to the possibility of the vision being Jon and Lyanna with Rhaegar, I too am having troubles with the timeline, only for different reasons than what most others have brought up. I agree that GRRM saying "...perhaps eight or nine months, or thereabouts," does allow for some wiggle room. So lets be generous and say that "...or thereabouts" means ten months is a possibility. Rhaegar most certainly would have been alive at the time his son was born if this is so. However, if you are taking the vision literally as being an event that happened that is being shown to Dany, the most important fact you need to prove is that Rhaegar could have been present at The Tower Of Joy at his sons birth. If you work backwards along the timeline this is not possible.

If we are generous and say Jon was born ten months before Dany, and she was conceived within the last day or so of Kings Landing being sacked, that would put Jons birth at about one month before. So moving backwards, we know from Catlyn that it takes a fortnight to travel from Kings Landing to the Crossroads Inn on horseback, which is near the Trident. Considering Eddard had an army with him that included foot soldiers and wagons, it would be very generous indeed to say it was two weeks between the time Rhaegar died at the Trident and the sack of Kings Landing/Danys conception. But lets do it anyways. This means Jon was born two weeks before Rhaegars death. Rhaegar himself had a vast army with him as he left Kings Landing on his way to the Trident, but lets go ahead and say it took him two weeks as well. That puts Rhaegar in or near Kings Landing when Jon was born. Even with Rhaegar riding as fast as possible by himself it is still easily three weeks to go from Kings Landing to the area of The Tower Of Joy. Which means the last time Rhaegar could have been there was at a minimum seven weeks before Danys conception and three weeks before Jons birth. And even if we were to wiggle things around again I myself find this too large a stumbling block to make this theory possible.

This is of course ignoring the fact that a) I too remember GRRM confirming it was Elia in the vision (unfortunately I do not remember where or when he said it and so put it aside for this discussion) and B) Lyanna would then have been either slowly dying from the the birth for months before Eddard got there or the blood and fever would have to be from something else all together which there is no evidence of whatsoever.

But nevertheless an interesting idea. I even came up with a somewhat plausible answer to why Rhaegar would call two of his sons by the same name. Rhaegar believed his son with Elia was TPtwP and either felt or believed that he needed to be named Aegon. When he met Lyanna and they fell in love and she bore him a son he changed his mind (again) and believed this son fit the prophecy better and so was TPtwP and therefore needed to be named Aegon. A little odd yes, but Rhaegar appears to have been somewhat obsessed with it all and so it is plausible if names are of importance. We have not actually seen this prophecy, only bits and pieces from different sources. So who knows what other information Rhaegar had that we do not.

But, of course, this is only the conclusion I came too.

I posted the SSM in #240.

And thanks for considering and for the sensible breakdown. The 8 or 9 months that is often repeated should be really repeated as you say as "8 or 9 months or thereabouts." That's GRRM not locking himself in.

The distance is a factor no doubt... and the SSM naturally.

As there is no quote provided, it's tenuous to think that there's room for interpretation in GRRM's confirmation.

[Starspear]

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[HexMachina]

As I said when I posted it, thats not the SSM, that is a Citadel entry. Unfortunately I cant search for the SSM where he confirms.it was Elia because I dont.know how. But rest assured, if its in the Citadel its true. The woman.in.that room was Elia not Lyanna

[Starspear]

As I said when I posted it, thats not the SSM, that is a Citadel entry. Unfortunately I cant search for the SSM where he confirms.it was Elia because I dont.know how. But rest assured, if its in the Citadel its true. The woman.in.that room was Elia not Lyanna

I posted the SSM in #240. Before your posting actually, in response to posting #238.

[HexMachina]

I posted the SSM in #240. Before your posting actually, in response to posting #238.

I'll repeat it again, thats not the SSM that is a Citadel entry, so there must be an SSM somewhere that sources Martin confirming its Elia.

[Starspear]

I'll repeat it again, thats not the SSM that is a Citadel entry, so there must be an SSM somewhere that sources Martin confirming its Elia.

Thought the SSM was linked below the link. In your words, if it's a Citadel entry it's just as good.

Frankly though, I prefer having the quote presented as evidence. I'm all for trusting the Citadel... but good referencing is good referencing.

ETA: you are correct. There is only the commentary and not the SSM in the link.

ETA2: Stand-by... looking into something that might negate the Citadel entry.

[Starspear]

Still looking but in the meantime, from the 70th World Science Fiction Convention (Chicon), GRRM:

• When asked about the changing of the House of the Undying on the show, George says, “Sooner or later, they will have to deal with Rhaegar and Lyanna and the Mad King.” He acknowledges the practical aspects of the adaptation, and that showing prophecies may cause issues down the road if a character or part of a storyline has to be moved or changed. That isn’t an issue for George when writing a book but it is on a TV show.
  

AND

• "It would be sort of stupid to have a whole prophecy of something that never pays off down the road because we have to cut that thread for budgetary reasons." (This is very general, but indicates that GRRM does intend to be faitful to some of the prophecies.)
  

[Jon's Queen Consort]

As I said when I posted it, thats not the SSM, that is a Citadel entry. Unfortunately I cant search for the SSM where he confirms.it was Elia because I dont.know how. But rest assured, if its in the Citadel its true. The woman.in.that room was Elia not Lyanna

I wasn't been able to find the SSM either but I remember I saw someone saying that Ran confirmed that the woman was Elia at the Citadel. I don't know if it is true or not, I just mention what I read.

[Starspear]

I wasn't been able to find the SSM either but I remember I saw someone saying that Ran confirmed that the woman was Elia at the Citadel. I don't know if it is true or not, I just mention what I read.

It's a good lead, but not rock-solid as ideally we'd have the exact quote. We're just doing this for fun, it's important to remember. My post #248 are direct quotes from GRRM in the meantime.

[Modesty Lannister]

Still looking but in the meantime, from the 70th World Science Fiction Convention (Chicon), GRRM:

• When asked about the changing of the House of the Undying on the show, George says, “Sooner or later, they will have to deal with Rhaegar and Lyanna and the Mad King.” He acknowledges the practical aspects of the adaptation, and that showing prophecies may cause issues down the road if a character or part of a storyline has to be moved or changed. That isn’t an issue for George when writing a book but it is on a TV show.

AND

• "It would be sort of stupid to have a whole prophecy of something that never pays off down the road because we have to cut that thread for budgetary reasons." (This is very general, but indicates that GRRM does intend to be faitful to some of the prophecies.)

They have a good reason not to show any flashbacks of Rhaegar, including this one.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It's a good lead, but not rock-solid as ideally we'd have the exact quote. We're just doing this for fun, it's important to remember. My post #248 are direct quotes from GRRM in the meantime.

It's the author's word. It is solid rock.

[Starspear]

It's the author's word. It is solid rock.

You missed the nuance. As you can see from my thread, I don't shy away from finding facts. I posted the link. Clearly, I'm showing awareness and consideration of it. Read even some of my earlier posts about it.

My point is the following: we don't have the exact SSM to match the statement. It has nothing to do with not trusting the Citadel (on the contrary); it's just about good referencing habits.

And I'm curious why you ignore the quotes in post #248.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

And I'm curious why you ignore the quotes in post #240.

First, stop doing this. It's really annoying that YOU want US to look for what you have said or others have referenced. Quote it so we can read it. Or write it again.

Two, Ran works close with GRRM. I personally believe him. Maybe it was confirmed for the app, but usually, the Citadel often quotes things that have been confirmed it, otherwise, we're in a kind of different territory.

So, Rhaegar got Elia pregnant with Aegon

He was born in KL, was named Aegon

He thought him to be TPTWP, Aemon confirms this. Aegon is the only son Rhaegar knew he had and he died before Jon was born.

So, that baby in the vision is Aegon. Rhaegar never meet Jon, he didn't even know he was a boy. Aegon and Jon are two different babies by two different mothers.

And not even the fact that he was "conceived" during the comet is evidence. Did Rhaegar saw the comet and ran to his dormitory and ordered Elia to conceive a child? As we don't know Rhaegar's mating habits, we can't tell. Conception can happen up until five days after sex and we know he was wrong about his son until Aegon showed up. We as readers don't yet kn ow if Aegon is real or not.

[Starspear]

First, stop doing this. It's really annoying that YOU want US to look for what you have said or others have referenced. Quote it so we can read it. Or write it again.

Part one in bold: Who do you think you are?

Part two in bold: Shows you don't respect the thread and don't follow it. So you're just sharing your views. It's a free forum. Share away... but don't come and try and tell people what to do or what to believe.

[Cold Hands warm heart]

For me I enjoy reading peoples thoughts on what may be theory s. Again for me there are too many ifs, in all the book theory for me to make claim to any. They are great fun to read and have the fantasy run but because of the influence outside the 5 printed books I give only small weight to any. I have not read anything outside the 5, not the Dunk and Egg, no Hedge Knight or Sworn Sword, or the Princess and the Queen. And that is where my stand comes from. When I hear theory on a subject and references are from D and Egg, I go what the F' . If I was of a suspicious mind I might think there never was R+L=J, or it's undecided or just plain incomplete.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Part one in bold: Who do you think you are?

Part two in bold: Shows you don't respect the thread and don't follow it. So you're just sharing your views. It's a free forum. Share away... but don't come and try and tell people what to do or what to believe.

It's called fine courtesy and nettiquette.

[Starspear]

edited.