The experience of Meereen

[Mourneblade]

Dragons the Faith can't ally itself with would be something new. Last time they were like, "Uh, we're coming out in favor of this dragon riding guy!" Stormy R'holls out the red carpet when she arrives? Faithy be in a pickle.

If she insane then the world's probably better off with the Seven winning, but they're going to be some woozy punch-drunk gods who can hardly stand up on their own feet, so it'll be close. The Seven may get some help from all of the factors that'll conspire against Danny which people love to make lists of. But then if Stan R'holls over the hill to seize Rome? The Faith is tired and outnumbered and gets pinballed back and forth between redgodders like how those SNL party guys used to victimize some hapless person on the dancefloor (at the Roxbury?)

I still do not see her being on the wrong side of the faith ATM.... and I do not think, with Tyrion advising her, that she will appear to be against them.... just MHO.

[The Mother of The Others]

Religious differences would be a great wedge issue to split the Targs, and a fine reason for Tyrion to wash his hands of her and abscond with a dragon after it becomes clear she's going to force the issue---a dragon which would then arm Aegon's side with a drake to set the stage for Fire II: the Sequel. If the fire religion acts as Danny's key to solving the East, she'd love the fire religion for helping her turn things around on that continent. If it's what galvanizes the ex-slave society into something a reformer could be proud of, she'd sign up as a R'holler for real, then. And she wouldn't give up the god that best reflects her firy soul just for appearances in Westeros, because it'd be a part of who she is as a successful conquerer---and after how Meereen turned out she'll have learned not to ever "put on big floppy ears" to lie to the people anymore. She'd be real about who she is this time. Uncompromising. It sets up well, no?

Also, what does it say about someone who needs Seven gods to do what one R'hllor can do? It sends the message that worshippers of the Seven are disorganized. R'hllor is clearly the more efficient god on the market today. And remember what I said about it being a really cold really scary Winter now..... that's when a switch to a fire god seems most prudent. When is heating oil most valuable on the east coast? When it's winter and you NEED it. Go Go Red R'hover Red R'hover, come on o'ver. The people may abandon the Seven for their incompetence if the red priests can show real magic that's trying to protect everyone. Lots of Baseball fans left after the strike year and never came back.

[Mourneblade]

It'd be a great wedge issue to split the Targs, and a fine reason for Tyrion to wash his hands of her and abscond with a dragon, which would then arm Aegon's side with a drake to set the stage for Fire II: the Sequel. If the fire religion is Danny's key to solving the East, she'd love the fire religion for helping her to turn things around on that continent and galvanize the ex-slave society into something a reformer could be proud of. She'd sign up as a R'holler for real, then. And wouldn't deign to give it up just for appearances in Westeros because it'd be a part of who she is and she not willing to "put on big fuzzy ears" to lie to the people anymore, based on how that turned out in Meereen. She'd be real about who she is this time. Uncompromising. It sets up well, no?

I just do not see it. The whole idea of burning people as sacrifices is just so abhorrent to those in Westeros, just as much as slavery is.

[The Mother of The Others]

Yeah the burnings of people are a real drawback. It might be catchy while times are really tough and scapegoats are needed, but on an average day you don't want a religion that burns your uncle all of a sudden. I totally see that as the same black eye that you do. That's something Danny may change when she negotiates with the fire faith to serve as their champ??? (Or not, if she going insane.)

Anyway, I'll stop because this is less about Meereen than it probably should be.

[Parwan]

I'm not convinced that there is such a thing as a good candidate for the throne. Things need to change on a fundamental level in the Seven Kingdoms. Which rear end winds up on the throne is not the most important factor. I have detailed my thinking in a series of threads under the general heading of "Systemic Problems." Could Daenerys Targaryen be part of the necessary changes? Possibly. I think she has learned some things in Meereen. At this point, has she learned enough? No.

I don't see the final chapter of ADwD as decisive or transformational--not even close. I think too much is read into mental events that could be considered hallucinations.

I didn't get that impression from her last chapter

I didn't get that impression either. In her last chapter, she is tired, hurt, and sick. If she doesn't survive, then I will agree with at least some of the Dany critics. Her POVs didn't, in the final analysis, have much point to them. To the extent that her story was necessary at all, GRRM should have cut it down considerably. It seems close to certain to me that she will survive. She will be well, rested, and rational. I see no need at all to think that the mental events out on the Dothraki sea will shape her future decisions.

"Dragons plant no trees."

How do you read that, exactly? "Tantrum" might not be the accurate word, but I'm not sure how you don't get "destruction" out that that. And it's not talking (just) about the literal dragons. If Dany thinks of herself as a dragon, it means she doesn't plant trees, either.

She never said that. Jorah said it to her in a vision in response to her stating why she stayed in Meereen, in other words Dany's subconscious was telling her what Jorah would have said.

You said it yourself, it's Dany's subconscious. It's a projection in her own mind. You say she never said that, except that she did, via her own subconscious. For whatever reason, what it is she thinks she needs to "hear" comes from a projection of Jorah. Jorah isn't actually there saying anything, it's all in Dany's mind. She's basically saying it to herself. Which is the point. "Dragons plant no trees. Remember who you are ..."

...

Why just a subconscious event? Why a projection? Why not a dream? Why not a nightmare? Why not an hallucination?

Earlier she had a dream about Viserys. She argued with him. He had the last word, then molten gold ran from his mouth. Dany woke up gasping. What should we conclude from this? Daenerys, after all, has continued to think that Viserys was her true king. Should we say that she has concluded that the dream king was right--he should have received the dragon's eggs? I don't think so.

Then she has a "waking dream" about Jorah. They argue. He claims that he gave good advice. He told her not to take Meereen. Then he told her to leave the place. He says she is a queen in Westeros. It is in this context that he says, "Dragons plant no trees." It is an argument against her staying in Meereen. He says, "Remember your words." She replies, "Fire and Blood." I see no great significance there. Those were always the Targaryen words, during war and during peace. They were Dany's words when she led her khalasar across the desert. They were her words when she launched attacks against slavers. They were her words when she crucified people. They were her words when she discussed things with Missandei. They were her words when she tried to feed and heal people.

Even if we say that the mental events are more significant than hallucinations, I don't see how we come to the conclusion that Dany has now made a firm decision to "burn everything down." Jorah also says, "Remember who you are, what you were made to be." Is it really plausible to argue that her "old sweet bear" is telling her that she was made to roast Westeros, burn it to the ground?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I'm not convinced that there is such a thing as a good candidate for the throne. Things need to change on a fundamental level in the Seven Kingdoms. Which rear end winds up on the throne is not the most important factor. I have detailed my thinking in a series of threads under the general heading of "Systemic Problems." Could Daenerys Targaryen be part of the necessary changes? Possibly. I think she has learned some things in Meereen. At this point, has she learned enough? No.

I don't see the final chapter of ADwD as decisive or transformational--not even close. I think too much is read into mental events that could be considered hallucinations.

I didn't get that impression either. In her last chapter, she is tired, hurt, and sick. If she doesn't survive, then I will agree with at least some of the Dany critics. Her POVs didn't, in the final analysis, have much point to them. To the extent that her story was necessary at all, GRRM should have cut it down considerably. It seems close to certain to me that she will survive. She will be well, rested, and rational. I see no need at all to think that the mental events out on the Dothraki sea will shape her future decisions.

Why just a subconscious event? Why a projection? Why not a dream? Why not a nightmare? Why not an hallucination?

Earlier she had a dream about Viserys. She argued with him. He had the last word, then molten gold ran from his mouth. Dany woke up gasping. What should we conclude from this? Daenerys, after all, has continued to think that Viserys was her true king. Should we say that she has concluded that the dream king was right--he should have received the dragon's eggs? I don't think so.

Then she has a "waking dream" about Jorah. They argue. He claims that he gave good advice. He told her not to take Meereen. Then he told her to leave the place. He says she is a queen in Westeros. It is in this context that he says, "Dragons plant no trees." It is an argument against her staying in Meereen. He says, "Remember your words." She replies, "Fire and Blood." I see no great significance there. Those were always the Targaryen words, during war and during peace. They were Dany's words when she led her khalasar across the desert. They were her words when she launched attacks against slavers. They were her words when she crucified people. They were her words when she discussed things with Missandei. They were her words when she tried to feed and heal people.

Even if we say that the mental events are more significant than hallucinations, I don't see how we come to the conclusion that Dany has now made a firm decision to "burn everything down." Jorah also says, "Remember who you are, what you were made to be." Is it really plausible to argue that her "old sweet bear" is telling her that she was made to roast Westeros, burn it to the ground?

I agree with you that the hallucinations are not meant to shape her future decisions. My point was similar to yours that there is nothing in the text that indicates she is going to burn everything on a rampage.

Dany actually doesn't make any decision when she is on the Dothraki sea after those visions, because before she had them she was following the stream to Meereen and after them she continues to follow the stream.

As I stated earlier I believe the take home of the chapter was about Dany overcoming the fear of her dragons and herself which she was afraid to confront throughout the book, and discovering herself (which I believe is not complete) I don't believe the chapter ended for us to conclude Dany is going on a rampage to burn everything down.

I also agree fire and blood =/= going on a rampage to burn everything,

[cade]

.

[Jon Snow's doggy]

The whole business with Mereen was Martin demonstrating how "Nation Building" does not work.

It is an Iraq/Afghanistsn/Vietnam metaphor.

Dany is done ruling ungrateful foreigners. Now it's time to kick ass.

[SeanF]

I agree with you that the hallucinations are not meant to shape her future decisions. My point was similar to yours that there is nothing in the text that indicates she is going to burn everything on a rampage.

Dany actually doesn't make any decision when she is on the Dothraki sea after those visions, because before she had them she was following the stream to Meereen and after them she continues to follow the stream.

As I stated earlier I believe the take home of the chapter was about Dany overcoming the fear of her dragons and herself which she was afraid to confront throughout the book, and discovering herself (which I believe is not complete) I don't believe the chapter ended for us to conclude Dany is going on a rampage to burn everything down.

I also agree fire and blood =/= going on a rampage to burn everything,

She doesn't have to go on a rampage. She may simply have come to the conclusion that if lives have to be lost so that she can achieve her goals, then so be it. Aegon I and his sisters didn't go on a rampage, but they had no qualms about killing the people who stood against them.

[Parwan]

She doesn't have to go on a rampage. She may simply have come to the conclusion that if lives have to be lost so that she can achieve her goals, then so be it. Aegon I and his sisters didn't go on a rampage, but they had no qualms about killing the people who stood against them.

It's quite plausible that she has come or will come to this conclusion. However, that does not distinguish her from any of the others currently contending for the Iron Throne.

Aegon and his sisters did not need to have visions/hallucinations of Ser Jorah or anyone else to make their battle plans. Also, the Field of Fire did not destroy any cities. My opinion remains the same as the one I offered in the post above. Let's return to the vocabulary used in the OP and consider Dany's last POV as one of her "adventures." What does it say about her as a candidate for the throne? Not all that much. I think that posters who say that she is clearly going crazy are reading too much into the text. I also maintain that it is far from clear that she will now become a purely destructive force. It could happen, but it could also happen to just about every other powerful character in the story. Statements in this thread and elsewhere that the young queen will "likely to go around burning stuff down for the hell of it" and "Targaryen Dragonlords don't give a shit about their people" are overdone.

[JonSnow4President]

If I thought that she had actually learned something about good governance from her time there, I'd be inclined to say, "Well, maybe." However, my takeaway from the ending is more like, "I failed at governing so now I'm just going to burn stuff down." Assuming that takeaway ends up being accurate, I'm going to have to say, "No."

But plenty of people, maybe even most people, who chase after the Iron Throne have no business sitting on it, so she's hardly alone there.

Not to reply to AM 7 months after the fact, but I can't say I disagree. Hell, i don't think any active claimant is on her level, which is a sad statement.

[Mithras]

The thought of home disquieted her. If her sun-and-stars had lived, he would have led his khalasar across the poison water and swept away her enemies, but his strength had left the world. Her bloodriders remained, sworn to her for life and skilled in slaughter, but only in the ways of the horselords. The Dothraki sacked cities and plundered kingdoms, they did not rule them. Dany had no wish to reduce King’s Landing to a blackened ruin full of unquiet ghosts. She had supped enough on tears. I want to make my kingdom beautiful, to fill it with fat men and pretty maids and laughing children. I want my people to smile when they see me ride by, the way Viserys said they smiled for my father.

“Aegon the Conqueror brought fire and blood to Westeros, but afterward he gave them peace, prosperity, and justice. But all I have brought to Slaver’s Bay is death and ruin. I have been more khal than queen, smashing and plundering, then moving on.”

“What will you do then, Khaleesi?” asked Rakharo.

“Stay,” she said. “Rule. And be a queen.”

You took Meereen, he told her, yet still you lingered.

“To be a queen.”

You are a queen, her bear said. In Westeros.

“It is such a long way,” she complained. “I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl.”

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

“Fire and Blood,” Daenerys told the swaying grass.

Dany watched him go. When the sound of his hooves had faded away to silence, she began to shout. She called until her voice was hoarse … and Drogon came, snorting plumes of smoke. The grass bowed down before him. Dany leapt onto his back. She stank of blood and sweat and fear, but none of that mattered. “To go forward I must go back,” she said.

A khal sacks and plunders cities, not stays to rule them. Dany thought that she would not be such a khal after her quick victories in SB. She decided to stay and rule. That is very good of her. However, things went out of control in Meereen and Dany was carried off to the Dothraki Sea by "heavenly" intervention. Whoever sent those visions to Dany at the Dothraki Sea (cough, Quaithe, cough) convinced her that she must not try to rule cities; she must conquer and then move on till she comes to Westeros. That is why Dany decided that in order "to go forward, she must go back" (to being a khal, smashing and plundering, then moving on.)

This has absolutely nothing to do with so-called "fear of using dragons".