Heresy 113

[Black Crow]

What I found so interesting about the scene was the implication that Syrio forel wasn't even a swordsman. It never once occured to me while reading the books that Ned might have lied to his daughter about finding a swordsmaster. Now I have to admit that we are never given any evidence of his supposed skill with a sword beyond ned's claims. we also know that ned didn't really want arya to learn how to use a sword. (at least he never took the initiative to have her taught earlier in her life) What if Syrio Forel was just a dancing master?

Funnily enough as it happens fencing instructors and dancing masters were often one and the same in the 18th century. They were employed to teach young gentlemen the essential social skills of how to behave on the dance-floor, recognise an insult or slight and respond to it. Both fencing and dancing, as Syrio was at pains to point out, require elegance and fluidity.

[Black Crow]

What I found so interesting about the scene was the implication that Syrio forel wasn't even a swordsman. It never once occured to me while reading the books that Ned might have lied to his daughter about finding a swordsmaster. Now I have to admit that we are never given any evidence of his supposed skill with a sword beyond ned's claims. we also know that ned didn't really want arya to learn how to use a sword. (at least he never took the initiative to have her taught earlier in her life) What if Syrio Forel was just a dancing master?

Funnily enough as it happens fencing instructors and dancing masters were often one and the same in the 18th century. They were employed to teach young gentlemen the essential social skills of how to behave on the dance-floor, recognise an insult or slight and respond to it. Both fencing and dancing, as Syrio was at pains to point out, require elegance and fluidity.

[Jojen]

If Craster was a Stark or at least part Stark, and his women were the ones who made a deal and not Craster himself, then with Craster gone, where would they go to find another male Stark to be their baby daddy?

Crackpot theory: Bran. We don't know for sure if he could ever sire any children, but he's the closest at hand. Rickon is too young. Jon is on the wrong side of the wall, and dead. Same goes for Robb. Those WW who attacked outside of BR's cave? Perhaps they were there simply to deliver Bran to Craster's wives.

[nedhed]

In the show Syrio did damage to a number of armed knights with just a wooden sword which established his swordsmanship credentials, at least in my eyes,

[Tyryan Lannister]

In the show Syrio did damage to a number of armed knights with just a wooden sword which established his swordsmanship credentials, at least in my eyes,

And not in any intending to ignite the "Syrio is a FM" flames, but in oth books and show it is never actually demonstrated that Syrio died, only that show Arya (and presumably book Arya) thinks he did

[Mace Cooterian]

Could Jojen's burning hand indicate that "the end" is the burning of the great weirwood? Visually it comes just after we've seen Bloodraven/Bran's weirwood again--that makes me think "the end" is when that weirwood burns.

perhaps Dany burning the weirwood (three fires must you light) would disenchant the world and extinguish magic (third betrayal, by winning, she loses), which restores the order of the seasons and restores the world to the mundane, with no influence from faerie or the supernatural (bittersweet ending, ala the disenchantment at the end of Lord of the Rings).

As for Jon warging, I think that will be introduced after Bran is planted. Or they will want to avoid tipping their hand if his death is the big shocker of episode nine of season 5.

I would think that the Jon being stabbed and potentially dead would be one of the great season ending cliffhangers; for non book readers.

For book readers, here is the ending or cliff hanger that I prefer....and apologies for admitting that I watched the Twilight Saga(it was my wife and my daughter...the devils made me do it.. :devil: ). The stabbing begins and Jon falls to the ground. As the night watch circles around him assuming that he is dead....Jon's eyes instantly upon up and they are...."sapphire blue". Just like at the end of Breaking Dawn Part 1, where Bella wakes up and her eyes are now "ruby red".

Jon waking with blue eyes would present us with a conundrum and something to chew on for awhile.

Edited to Add.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Ahh, that is one of the better arguments I've seen yet for how the books & HBO are going their separate ways...

--

Long before D&D ever approached HBO with their idea, Long before they ever approached GRRM with their idea, they first formulated the idea of turning ASOIAF into a TV show… I have no doubt that this process took years… While formulating their ideas for the TV Series, all that D&D had to work from were books 1 through 4 - Any artistic vision beyond the scope of books 1-4 came from the minds of D&D, not the mind of GRRM as most would have you believe.

Once they had a fully developed, serious concept of where their idea was going, D&D could then start approaching people like GRRM & companies like HBO. If I recall correctly, it was a spectacular ending that allowed D&D to sell the idea to HBO… But who's ending? D&D's or GRRM's?

--

Much later came the 'well advertised' discussion between D&D & GRRM where GRRM supposedly told them exactly how the Series would come to close. However, you will note that D&D nor GRRM ever mentioned whether or not HBO would use GRRM's ending or not...

The way HBO seems to be drifting from the books, I am of the opinion that HBO has opted to go D&D's ending… Actually, it is highly unlikely that the use of GRRM's ending was ever even on the table for HBO potential use. I personally question whether or not GRRM ever truly revealed the book ending to D&D, because the way all participants went out of their way to make it publicized that this revelation had taken place makes the whole situation seem too contrived & too manufactured for my taste (especially when GRRM is involved). I see it as nothing more than a marketing strategy to get potential viewer to take the HBO version more seriously & attract more viewers.

In summary, I would wager that neither D&D, nor anyone @ HBO has any clue whatsoever as to where GRRM is going in the final installments of ASOIAF. An overly hyped, fake meeting where GRRM 'disclosed' the ending was nothing but a well executed marketing tool.

I don't know about a fake meeting, but I agree with the rest of your ideas. I also think the GoT ending and the aSoIaF will be very different.

[wolfmaid7]

If Craster was a Stark or at least part Stark, and his women were the ones who made a deal and not Craster himself, then with Craster gone, where would they go to find another male Stark to be their baby daddy?

Crackpot theory: Bran. We don't know for sure if he could ever sire any children, but he's the closest at hand. Rickon is too young. Jon is on the wrong side of the wall, and dead. Same goes for Robb. Those WW who attacked outside of BR's cave? Perhaps they were there simply to deliver Bran to Craster's wives.

I don't think the women made a "deal" with WWs,there seems to be a couple of barriers that would not facilitate that type of transaction.This story though fanatasy has a sense of realism per the medium and the way GRRM has told it so far.That being said in my opinion given the clues,GRRM's theme of the human condition it seems more likely this particular theory has two possibilities.

1. As Snowy hatched out the women are probably not all that human and are powers in their own right.

2. The sacrifice started as just "exposure" and evoled into a ritual by certain women.

3.There were no WWs outside who attacked outside the cave....only Wights.

And not in any intending to ignite the "Syrio is a FM" flames, but in oth books and show it is never actually demonstrated that Syrio died, only that show Arya (and presumably book Arya) thinks he did

That's very true,i think in the books too that duel did also end in an air of uncertainty regarding Syrio.

Did I miss something here? I know the Hound was mocking Arya and her "water dancing", but I never got the impression that we were being pointed in the direction of Syrio not being a swordsman.

I agree,the Hound was being a major douche,the man styled himself the first sword of Bravvos.He may have been blowing smoke but its hard to deny that his lessons to Arya were helpful.

[Harlan]

In the show Syrio did damage to a number of armed knights with just a wooden sword which established his swordsmanship credentials, at least in my eyes,

Technically they were just household guards, not nights. And the same thing happened in the books.

Did I miss something here? I know the Hound was mocking Arya and her "water dancing", but I never got the impression that we were being pointed in the direction of Syrio not being a swordsman.

It wasn't strongly implied. Basically, Arya's water dancing didn't resemble any fencing techniques I've ever seen or seem particularly practical. That along with all of the hounds statements marveling at "a swordsman with only a wooden sword" put along the line of reasoning. I'm not saying its likely, but the simple truth is that all the evidence we have of syrio's prowess comes from a single fight scene with swordsman of unknown skill and ned's word. Syrio may be (probably is) a master swordsman. Syrio may not be....

[Melifeather]

What I found so interesting about the scene was the implication that Syrio forel wasn't even a swordsman. It never once occured to me while reading the books that Ned might have lied to his daughter about finding a swordsmaster. Now I have to admit that we are never given any evidence of his supposed skill with a sword beyond ned's claims. we also know that ned didn't really want arya to learn how to use a sword. (at least he never took the initiative to have her taught earlier in her life) What if Syrio Forel was just a dancing master?

While Arya's on screen antics were a little overboard, she did seem to surprise the Hound otherwise he wouldn't have been so angry. If he hadn't had armor on, she'd have gotten him.

It's my opinion Syrio is dead. I don't need to see the proof. It's heavily implied.

[Jojen]

3.There were no WWs outside who attacked outside the cave....only Wights.

You're right. I forgot it was just wights. I suppose that IF the WW did want Bran for any reason, they would have gone after him themselves rather than trust a wight to do it.

[lokisnow]

does it seem clear to anyone else that Craster's wives are going to be central to the Hardhome plot on the show?

Regarding Syrio, I thought it was interesting that both Arya's elaborate "theatrics" with her sword and the Hound forcing her to question Syrio's identity and her own experience/acceptance of what he told her was very interesting. Ned may have hired a water dancer because they are meant to be performers, thus Arya gets to learn swordplay, scratching her itch, but not actually training as a knight like Lyanna or Brienne. The Hound might even know that water dancers are the equivalent of circus performers. ;)

Also, I think we're supposed to connect the Hound's contempt of Meryn Trant and saying something along the line of "any pissant could have killed him" with Pod telling Brienne about how he killed Meryn Trant. :-p

[JNR]

And not in any intending to ignite the "Syrio is a FM" flames, but in oth books and show it is never actually demonstrated that Syrio died, only that show Arya (and presumably book Arya) thinks he did

Yeah. I really don't think he's Jaqen or a FM, but the case he survived seems a lot stronger than the forums often claim it is.

Roughly, I'd say the case for Dead Syrio is:

1. "The First Sword of Braavos does not run"

2. Syrio was committed to giving Arya time to get away

3. Trant had plate armor and had just broken Syrio's practice sword

4. Syrio has never appeared since; Trant has

5. When asked, GRRM has expressed wonder that people keep asking, suggesting Syrio's situation was "hopeless"

6. Stylistically it's no surprise that GRRM would have killed off a character Arya liked and respected

The case for Syrio Lives! is:

1. The First Sword of Braavos is not a dumbass

2. Syrio could easily have picked up a steel sword from the floor thanks to the guards he had just knocked out

3. Trant was a mediocre swordsman; Syrio had just taken out five guys simultaneously with a practice sword

4. Trant, in full plate, would be much slower than Syrio -- if Syrio pulled an Oberyn, and got him on his back, it's good night for Trant

5. Syrio had no need to murder Trant, just knock him out to ensure Arya's and his own escape

6. GRRM has never said Syrio was dead -- compare to his direct statement that "Rhaegar was cremated"

7. If Syrio survived, he would disappear, since he was a known associate of the Starks and the Lannisters were not exactly treating them kindly

And of course via the new Mercy chapter, we now have the intriguing canon reference to "Phario Forel," who is said to have written a play that takes place in the same timeframe as Ned's death -- a play in which the Lannisters (particularly Tyrion) seem demonized. There are various ways to interpret that.

[Urrax2]

Re possible book spoilers in the show - what's with the Lannisters are running out of gold?

[Jojen]

does it seem clear to anyone else that Craster's wives are going to be central to the Hardhome plot on the show?

I thought of that too. If they go anywhere, they just might go there.

[Kallb123]

While Arya's on screen antics were a little overboard, she did seem to surprise the Hound otherwise he wouldn't have been so angry. If he hadn't had armor on, she'd have gotten him.

It's my opinion Syrio is dead. I don't need to see the proof. It's heavily implied.

Technically they were just household guards, not nights. And the same thing happened in the books.

It wasn't strongly implied. Basically, Arya's water dancing didn't resemble any fencing techniques I've ever seen or seem particularly practical. That along with all of the hounds statements marveling at "a swordsman with only a wooden sword" put along the line of reasoning. I'm not saying its likely, but the simple truth is that all the evidence we have of syrio's prowess comes from a single fight scene with swordsman of unknown skill and ned's word. Syrio may be (probably is) a master swordsman. Syrio may not be....

By the gods, I've finally caught up in the heresy threads since the end scene of last week's episode! Not been on heresy for far too long :(

I suppose syrio's supposed skill is shown only against a few guards. Arya is off on her way as soon as he's up against a knight. Maybe him urging her to leave is not just wanting to save her physically, but prevent her from learning that he and her father lied to her.

I think the hound being surprised wasn't anything to do with arya's skill, but more that she intentionally stuck him with the pointy end.

I'm not entirely sure why all this would matter though. Even if Arya learnt her dancing from some random dude ned found, she has clearly learnt something.

[Jojen]

Or maybe Sandor is just plain jealous that she's taken murder lessons from someone other than him.

[JNR]

Re possible book spoilers in the show - what's with the Lannisters are running out of gold?

That's what happens when you always pay your debts.

[lokisnow]

but interestingly, if their mines are not producing, the value of their reserves is steadily increasing from deflationary pressure. He could actually be getting steadily richer, while the indebted get poorer because deflation is such a good thing for the holders of debt, and so ruinous for the debtors. It's not really a bad situation.

Plus, most of their liquidity would come from rents, with the westerlands suffering only during Robb's short romp, Lannister coffers should still be rather robust with play money without touching gold reserves.

[lenniegroove]

For instance, I don't particularly like Theon's subplot in DwD.

Wow, really? That was my favorite part of DwD! (Really, the whole Bolton/Dustin/Pink Wedding thing.)