[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa IX: The birth of Alayne Stone

[Cas Stark]

1. (Definitely) Because they really, really want the audience to think that Tyrion is a total Good Guy and really, really didn't force that 14-year old girl to marry him, so what better way to do that than have her reiterate once more that he's a a total good guy?

2. (Definitely) Because they try to minimize all conflict between the "good guys", and they want the audience to like Sansa now, and some portions of the audience would hate her just for disliking their favorite character, the cool and funny Tyrion (it happens with lots of book readers.. just look at all those "why was Sansa such a bitch to Tyrion" threads that pop up once in a while)

3. (Possibly) Because Sansa and Tyrion may end up having friendly relations (a political alliance, for instance) in the far future, and they think they need to set it up because the audience would otherwise think that they hate each other if we don't get their internal thoughts (and obviously, as far as the show goes, you are either BFFs or hate each other's guts... subtlety isn't the show's strong suit).

You mean, like they did with the Tyrion/Sansa scenes in season 3?... Except that, as we know, they only had that talk with GRRM after season 3 had already been shot.

The way they're writing Sansa/Tyrion scenes in season 4 is a natural continuation of how they were writing them in season 3. Am I the only one who doesn't get why people are acting as if there's some huge turnaround now that needs to be explained?

Subtle is definitely not their strong point, LOL. I think I would hate it if Tyrion ends up with Sansa...it would be rewarding all of his awful behavior by gifting him the thing that he's always wanted and has been moved by...his superficial desire for a beautiful woman who will love him for himself.

[Colonel Green]

IMDB is completely unreliable when reporting information from future episodes.

That's not true. The actors' agents often upload information; Ser Dontos' appearances were, for instance.

[It's Not That Littlefinger]

im just curious, is it possible for there to be a show thread without it turning into a d&d bashing party? people need to realize that they make changes for a reason and that you need to wait longer before completely demonizing a diversion. they haven't murdered sansa's character. it is just ever so slightly different. people blow things way out of proportion.

and shut up already about "saint tyrion". it doesnt matter if he is a little nicer on the show. they had a likable character that they want to remain likable. its not hard to understand why they wouldnt have him kill a singer, or have sex with shae, or why he was nice to sansa. didnt he try to be nice to sansa in the books too?

oh, and dont forget, five episodes from now, HE IS GOING TO KILL HIS FATHER. is that dark enough for you guys. seriously, if you dont like how the show does things, stop watching it. more importantly, stop complaining.

[Colonel Green]

people need to realize that they make changes for a reason and that you need to wait longer before completely demonizing a diversion.

You mean like all the changes to Catelyn's character, which turned out to be oh-so-necessary and justified?

[Hound's She-wolf]

im just curious, is it possible for there to be a show thread without it turning into a d&d bashing party? people need to realize that they make changes for a reason and that you need to wait longer before completely demonizing a diversion. they haven't murdered sansa's character. it is just ever so slightly different. people blow things way out of proportion.

and shut up already about "saint tyrion". it doesnt matter if he is a little nicer on the show. they had a likable character that they want to remain likable. its not hard to understand why they wouldnt have him kill a singer, or have sex with shae, or why he was nice to sansa. didnt he try to be nice to sansa in the books too?

oh, and dont forget, five episodes from now, HE IS GOING TO KILL HIS FATHER. is that dark enough for you guys. seriously, if you dont like how the show does things, stop watching it. more importantly, stop complaining.

People can have a discussion about things they don't like in the show and still not hate the show.

St Tyrion is a different character than the books, he is not a little nicer, he is totally different. it is a big deal because it is a big change.

If you don't like this thread then don't read it. If you don't like people talking about St Tyrion, then don't read it. Take your own advice about people watching the show and commenting on it, if you don't like, don't read.

[Newstar]

I think the problem with the Tyrion changes. Chuckling Tree, is that the changes to the Tyrion/Sansa dynamic are more akin to the changes to Cat than to the changes to Tyrion's character overall. The writers can still course-correct with Tyrion's personality overall, as I expect they will when Tyrion kills Tywin and Shae. With Tyrion and Sansa's dynamic, though, there's no fixing it in the sense of course-correcting it to be more in line with the books, any more than there's fixing Cat: the two have had the last interaction they'll have in the published books, or maybe ever. It is what it is.

[Mladen]

St. Tyrion of House Whitewashing is a real deal... You may not like it but it is true.

As for this Vale conundrum. I watched this episode and I don't know where to start with this, what to make out of this and how to interpret. Simply, there are too many details changed so we could talk about some parallels between show and books.

1. Change from daughter to niece. This is, probably done, to evade the ick factor of the future kissing, seduction etc scenes. One has to wonder why would those scenes be ick when the viewers are very much familiar with who is Alayne. The ick factor would be about the age...

2. Discovery about Jon Arryn's death. I don't mind it being revealed a bit earlier. I do mind that Sansa wasn't there to hear it. For she acknowledged the fact that Lysa killed Jon. She doesn't realize what that event triggered.

3. SR knows who is Sansa. OK, this is by far, the most ludicrous idea show runners ever had. LF wouldn't trust SR information about where lemons are stored in the kitchen let alone Sansa's identity.

4. Cat was fat? That entire conversation was a bit off. It is not that I disliked it, it's just weird. I also liked how Sansa used the same mantra people assessed her and defended herself with it. "I am stupid little girl, silly little girl..."

Now, in terms of the books, what does this show? Nothing, in my opinion. Trying to figure this out would be like pissing into the wind. There are like dozens different scenarios or possible foreshadowing clues that these changes suggests. I also noticed that dress, and the hair. I mean, I would really liked that Turner, for the sake of Alayne mask, left her hair as it is (it would be nice to see her as blonde in the show), but, it is what it is...

Also, that Game of moans was hilarious... I heard that one more time, on farm when I saw a cow giving birth...

As for IMDB and the entries, all the new cast members are listed for 10 episodes in the season they appear, and once those episodes air, they take them off the cast members lists.

[Red Tiger]

I think Lysa saying Cat used to be fat is just an allusion to the books where Lysa is fat.

[Hound's She-wolf]

4. Cat was fat? That entire conversation was a bit off. It is not that I disliked it, it's just weird. I also liked how Sansa used the same mantra people assessed her and defended herself with it. "I am stupid little girl, silly little girl..."

She may have been a chubby kid, but i took this as Lysa and her sour grapes, just saying any snide little nasty thing she could think of.

[Chebyshov]

I think Lysa saying Cat used to be fat is just an allusion to the books where Lysa is fat.

I think so too. Just like how at the RW they specifically mentioned how good the musicians were.

[voodooqueen126]

She's naturally blonde and dyes her hair red for the role, wouldn't that be why she was seen dyeing her hair?

I've never been a fan of that forum in general, so no. But you haven't answered my question.

So, I gather, you don't like Tyrion? ;)

I could list lots of Sansa-related reasons why I find this endgame unlikely - such as why I don't think that Sansa's arc so far points or hints to an outcome in which she end up prostituting/sacrificing herself for Winterfell; or that, even if she were to end that way, there are lots of other people she could prostitute herself to for much better political gains compared to what marrying a Lannister could get her; but what particularly strikes me about your doom scenario is that it is contingent on Tyrion ultimately playing the role of a immoral villain/twisted monster/sexually deviant demon monkey, much like the Richard III-like version of him from Phario Forel's play, or the popular image of him among people of Westeros. Now, book!Tyrion is not Saint Tyrion of the show, he's a very flawed man, but he's definitely not Twisted Demon Monkey Tyrion, even though this version seems popular among a portion of book fans on this forum. (As with Dany, who must be Evil Mad Queen if she's not the Perfect Messiah of Goodness, characters apparently must be black of white.) GRRM is subverting the "twisted monster" trope with Tyrion (and with other characters) - even when Tyrion, as a part of his descent into darkness in ADWD, starts thinking of himself and behaving similarly to what people always thought he was, I'm pretty sure we're not supposed to think "they were right, he is and was always an evil monster". And, well, I also don't think that an ending based on making the readers ponder "look at how awful, disgusting and vomit-inducing those men with dwarfism are" would be any more... enlightened than your sarcastic scenario about beautiful girls having to prostitute themselves and fat women being the worst.

Really, we've been there with Sansa and Tyrion, (not) done that, seen that scenario subverted in multiple ways; I don't see it being repeated and played straight the second time, in either one of those ways (Twisted Demon Monkey raping and abusing the beautiful tragic maiden, or spoiled girl Seeing the Light and realizing that her forced marriage was what she always needed because her husband is just so awesome and girls don't know what's good for them in the first place).

I will concede though that I don't think it's out of the question that Sansa and Tyrion may, due to circumstances, always remain married... officially. I just don't think they'll ever going to have sex or actually live like husband and wife. The ring may always stay there, but there'll be no bloody cloak, so to speak. I wouldn't be too surprised if, just like in the game we love to play in the Games forum, the people Sansa gets to fuck, marry and kill are all separate from each other. :)

I think that GRRM hinted in an interview that the death of Sansa's direwolf mean that she was no longer of the North/died as a Stark. So I don't think book Sansa will ever go North again.

Given that even in the best case scenario, the Starks will need to be rebuilding Winterfell after ADOS, they will certainly need Sansa to make a good/wealthy marriage (since Arya certainly won't be available). Since Harry the Heir and Willas Tyrell have yet to be seen on screen, it doesn't seem likely that Sansa will end up with either of those nonentities, whereas Tyrion has been around from book 1.

I think future books will show Sansa as haunted by grief over her betrayal of her father (as a result of her minuscule book 1 actions), and she will make the decide to stay with Tyrion as a form of repentance. So I don't think Tyrion will force her to remain married (he maybe a rapist, and a whore monger but he likes the fantasy of being desired) but she will offer, for reasons that are both rational and moral (i.e not motivated by twu wuv but motivated by self sacrifice in exchange for Lannister gold to rebuild Winterfell). Tyrion will thus finally believe that he has obtained his fantasy (possession of a beautiful woman who will love him for himself), only for it to be the the same relationship he had with Shae, but with a much higher price.

Sex without desire is at the very least nauseating (as any woman who has tried it can attest), and desire is ultimately about the body. The judgements of the body are not enlightened ones.

Perhaps D&D just don't get that a woman can make unemotional but moral decisions, so they will have the completion of the Tyrion Sansa marriage be about Twu Wuv and "aren't I lucky to have such a nice and funny guy."

I once shared your optimism about Tyrion and Sansa, but the show made me realise that it wasn't end game (my suspicions were raised as far back as season 2 when they eliminated SanSan and Tyrion's comment along the lines of "You'll surprise us yet Lady Stark") but season 3 confirmed it.

the show's lack of subtly kind of made the ending of the book easier to predict.

[~No One~]

St. Tyrion of House Whitewashing is a real deal... You may not like it but it is true.

snip

3. SR knows who is Sansa. OK, this is by far, the most ludicrous idea show runners ever had. LF wouldn't trust SR information about where lemons are stored in the kitchen let alone Sansa's identity.

I agree with most of what you said, cheers.

I think the St. Tyrion will be having a very, very dramatic downfall next season. He's been built up so much as the good guy, especially by Sansa, that his plummet from the peak of Mount Can't-Do-Anything-Wrong will be epic.

As for SR knowing about Sansa, isn't it Lysa who mentions it? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think it was LF, who, I agree, wouldn't share that info.

[The hairy bear]

That's not true. The actors' agents often upload information; Ser Dontos' appearances were, for instance.

Sometimes it's the actor's agents that upload information. Sometimes it's some stupid teenager who's bored at home. You have no way of knowing, so the information is not realiable.

If you try to submit information to Imdb, you'll see how easy it is.

[Colonel Green]

Sometimes it's the actor's agents that upload information. Sometimes it's some stupid teenager who's bored at home. You have no way of knowing, so the information is not realiable.

The point being that Robin's appearances looked to have been from his agent, especially given that they predicted episode 7 well before its content was known.

3. SR knows who is Sansa. OK, this is by far, the most ludicrous idea show runners ever had. LF wouldn't trust SR information about where lemons are stored in the kitchen let alone Sansa's identity.

It was Lysa who told him, so he didn't really have any say in the matter. That's a harmless change, ultimately.

[Mladen]

She may have been a chubby kid, but i took this as Lysa and her sour grapes, just saying any snide little nasty thing she could think of.

Yeah, I mean it could be nasty thing to say, since we know that Cat was regarded as very beautiful by everyone who knew her.

I think that GRRM hinted in an interview that the death of Sansa's direwolf mean that she was no longer of the North/died as a Stark.

As far as I know, he never said something like that. Especially given the fact that the author himself has been establishing connections between Sansa and the North time after time throughout the book series.

I think the St. Tyrion will be having a very, very dramatic downfall next season. He's been built up so much as the good guy, especially by Sansa, that his plummet from the peak of Mount Can't-Do-Anything-Wrong will be epic.

Yeah, I imagine that too... But, it is so frustrating that they added so much material to Tyrion to make him better. I mean the scene with Pod last episode was the limit for me...

As for SR knowing about Sansa, isn't it Lysa who mentions it? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think it was LF, who, I agree, wouldn't share that info.

It was Lysa who told him, so he didn't really have any say in the matter. That's a harmless change, ultimately.

I know it was Lysa who told him, but if you think that Lysa would say that without LF's permission, than I think you are wrong. This was done with LF's blessing, which is why I find it idiotic.

As for whether it is harmless, it could be... But, I am not sure anymore...

[Hound's She-wolf]

I know it was Lysa who told him, but if you think that Lysa would say that without LF's permission, than I think you are wrong. This was done with LF's blessing, which is why I find it idiotic.

As for whether it is harmless, it could be... But, I am not sure anymore...

That was just one of several slips from LF IMO, he didn't have Sansa color her hair, just pull up her hood after several archers already saw her, she still has that gaudy gold Lannister ring and now SR knows her true identity-either it doesn't ultimately mean anything and is harmless-(which I can't see, why include it if it doesn't matter) or it means that LF is getting sloppy and he has left clues for people who are coming to the Vale to find.

[Chebyshov]

That was just one of several slips from LF IMO, he didn't have Sansa color her hair, just pull up her hood after several archers already saw her, she still has that gaudy gold Lannister ring and now SR knows her true identity-either it doesn't ultimately mean anything and is harmless-(which I can't see, why include it if it doesn't matter) or it means that LF is getting sloppy and he has left clues for people who are coming to the Vale to find.

Exactly. And because of the medium of TV, I think the clues may need to be more obvious. Also because show viewers don't know about things like Yohn Royce previously interacting with Sansa.

I am mystified why they'd even mention her hair color if not to dye it later, but it looks like she's staying a redhead, so maybe that was another nod to book readers.

[queensansa]

Turner never changed her hair at any point during filming.

I found the clip. It's at 9:55 and 10:27 in A Foreshadowing - youtube.com/watch?v=J5iS3tULXMQ

It looks to me like they're dying her hair, from what I can tell... The dye is more than likely temporary. I'm sure LF mentioned her memorable shade in order to make the change in the next episode that they appear in.

I don't recall show!Sansa ever showin any kind of "dislike" towards bastards. Having her be a Stone wouldn't mean much within the context of the show.

My guess is that they'll just never give a surname for Alayne, and her status won't be addressed at all.

Maybe not dislike per se, but to some extent, skepticism and awareness.

Book!Sansa wasn't all that happy about her new identity being that of a bastard, but of course, she differs from show!Sansa.

You're right, it doesn't really have to be addressed and can be left unmentioned, although I feel that transitioning from highborn to bastard is more notable than highborn to highborn (or half highborn, depending on the supposed circumstances of Alayne's birth). Nevertheless, it's not as relevant to her character in the show compared to the books.

[Colonel Green]

I'm sure LF mentioned her memorable shade in order to make the change in the next episode that they appear in.

We've seen images of both the Snow Castle and Moon Door scenes. Her hair is red.

If Sophie was getting her hair coloured, most likely it was just touching up her existing dye job. They wouldn't dye it to film scenes out-of-order and then change back to red immediately after.

[Cas Stark]

That will be odd if they don't have her dye her hair. A red head with a Northern accent shows up with LF from KL...and no one in the Vale is going to put it together? Unless they're going to change the story where it's an open secret who she is or add in some future events after she's identified....an odd choice. Do they think the TV viewers will forget who she is if they give her brown hair?