[Book Spoilers] The Jon Arryn Reveal.

[chrisdaw]

Yeah I don't believe those are anywhere near important enough, or that the show is even capable of a deft enough touch that any of it would matter.

[StrollofShame]

I personally would absolutely love it if 'Only Cat' was delayed untill the last few minutes of episode 10, allowing Lysa's jealousy to get creepier and creepier throughout the season, finally culminating in the pivotal moment, and then immediately followed next scene by the Lady Stoneheart reveal!

I think my heart would stop. This would be amazing!

[StrollofShame]

Slightly off-topic about the reveal, but completely on-topic about Sansa & the Eerie...I have a pet theory that the title of Episode Ten refers not only to the Children of the Forest, but to the Stark children as well. Each has a thrilling & life-altering finale in ASOS, which is why I think Lysa's flight will be in the last ep. Bran meets BR & the little people; Arya heads to Braavos & FM; Sansa loses Auntie shockingly; & even bastard child Jon succeeds as LC. (No Rickon ending, tho). All of which culminates in LS's appearance. The Starks are baaaack!

[Seneti]

Slightly off-topic about the reveal, but completely on-topic about Sansa & the Eerie...I have a pet theory that the title of Episode Ten refers not only to the Children of the Forest, but to the Stark children as well. Each has a thrilling & life-altering finale in ASOS, which is why I think Lysa's flight will be in the last ep. Bran meets BR & the little people; Arya heads to Braavos & FM; Sansa loses Auntie shockingly; & even bastard child Jon succeeds as LC. (No Rickon ending, tho). All of which culminates in LS's appearance. The Starks are baaaack!

That's a great theory! Let's hope it comes true. Also, let's not forget Dany's children (who will most likely end up in chains in ep. 4.10) and the Lannister's (the two brothers who reveal each other's secrets and what happens to their father).

[Joseph Nobles]

Perhaps Lysa will let something slip while tearing into Sansa after the snow castle, and Sansa will put it all together - meaning she's beginning her arc toward queen instead of pawn. So instead of Lysa redoing a villain speech, it's Sansa saying what happened, or saying enough for us to know she's got it.

[~No One~]

He's like a retarded version of Joffrey, in a way: his is a casual cruelty, rooted in total self-involvement, which he would have grown out of but for his insane mother; whereas Joffrey's was sharpened to a point and quite deliberately performed. But both of them have an underlying sadistic streak, which one might argue comes from the same source: their overindulgent mothers. Both are raised from birth to believe their shit don't stink, and both have their cruel streaks excused and their every whim indulged. They're like medieval Cartmans.

And I don't think the similarity is coincidental, in book or in show: clearly Mr. Martin has his opinions on boys who are mollycoddled by their mothers. For poor Sansa, it's a cruel irony that she exchanges the tyranny of a mummy's boy for... the tyranny of another mummy's boy. The show underlines this point when Robyn throws her gift out of the Moon Door, much as Joffrey cut Tyrion's books into pieces: both boys are extremely ungrateful for the gift's they've received, and the only difference is that Joffrey intends something with his actions, whereas it just doesn't occur to Robyn to give a fuck. Deliberate cruelty vs. casual cruelty: I wonder which one's worse? I suppose that's quite a big theme in the story now that I think about it... but I'm going on too much.

Off topic, I know, but there's a great thread somewhere about the thematic similarities of Lysa and Cersei, parts of which include their children and how they raised them. I will search briefly for it, so you can have a look. Nothing accidental from GRRM about that, at all!

ETA: couldn't find it, sorry.

On topic: I've said it before (thrice, so far in this thread?) but I think Lysa will do a cray-cray ranting reveal of killing Jon in the moon door scene (for Sansa's benefit, and ours).

[JagLover]

Slightly off-topic about the reveal, but completely on-topic about Sansa & the Eerie...I have a pet theory that the title of Episode Ten refers not only to the Children of the Forest, but to the Stark children as well. Each has a thrilling & life-altering finale in ASOS, which is why I think Lysa's flight will be in the last ep. Bran meets BR & the little people; Arya heads to Braavos & FM; Sansa loses Auntie shockingly; & even bastard child Jon succeeds as LC. (No Rickon ending, tho). All of which culminates in LS's appearance. The Starks are baaaack!

I'd love it if they ended the episode with Arya's scene at the temple with the Kindly Man

[holycray]

I think they really need to do a "what happened on the last episode" before each episode. It would have been good to remind viewers of the scene where Catelyn receives the letter about Jon Arryn's death, its been 4 years since season 1 and people that don't re-watch shows may have forgotten.

This would have helped a great deal. It went over a lot of people's heads.

[Cold Crashing Waves]

Like I said

I honestly don't think any show-only viewers knew what the fuck she was talking about.

[Grail King]

This would have helped a great deal. It went over a lot of people's heads.

don't think so, my wife got it, she said wasn't her husband the guy with the stone eyes lying in state and I answered yes, she said if Sansa finds out she's gonna be pissied I smiled and said lets hope so.

[edgeroc]

I liked the reveal as well. Honestly though, it kind of changed my opinion of the Lannisters a bit. For the last three seasons I had it in my mind (as did any unsullied I assume) that the Lannisters were responsible for Jon Aryn's death. Now don't get me wrong, I still hate Cercei, I think she is just a stain on the realm but after knowing now Jamie had nothing to do with it I find myself even liking him more after the reveal. Isn't that really what it's all about? Hating a character in the beginning like Jamie and the Hound but liking them immensely now is the real meat of this show in my opinion.

I got caught up with a little bit of skimming and found out a bit too much of the moon door so now I have to leave this section for a while. It's hilarious that I walk on this site like I walk on eggshells but still find myself coming back here time and time again.

[Seneti]

This would have helped a great deal. It went over a lot of people's heads.

Um... I don't want to sound rude, but they did have a "previously on" before the episode and it did not only include a shot of Jon Arryn's dead body, but also Catelyn showing the letter to Ned, plus Luwin convincing Ned to leave. So what more exactly do you want?

[voodooqueen126]

snip

If Sansa's knowledge of the truth of the Arryn poisoning is important in and of itself - rather than her just being the vehicle for the audience discovering that knowledge - then that points the way towards her somehow taking advantage of that knowledge in the future... Does that make sense? I'm saying, in the books, Sansa finds out because we, the reader, have to find out, and she's the only POV in the Vale - but it doesn't mean that she'll do anything with that knowledge. On the show though, they're not sticking to the POVs, so they can give us that knowledge whenever - which they just did. So if they make a big deal out of Sansa specifically being the one to hear that knowledge, that signals to me that her knowing that knowledge will have some kind of importance/prominence within the story.

Sorry for my appalling writing but hopefully you get the gist

This is why I really don't like the early reveal: if they repeat the information again, then it makes very clear to both book and show viewers that Sansa's knowledge of Lysa & Petyr role in the death of Jon Arryn and the subsequent letter to Cersei, is important in itself (presumably Sansa will use it take down Littlefinger).

And if the show does not repeat the Jon Arryn reveal (which I think is likely) then it makes clear that the reason the information (about Jon Arryn & Lysa's letter to Catelyn) was given to book Sansa was merely to inform the readers and that Sansa is just a POV character with no actual arc, and that show Sansa will most likely remain in ignorance until she is rescued. Which bodes ill for book Sansa.

He's like a retarded version of Joffrey, in a way: his is a casual cruelty, rooted in total self-involvement, which he would have grown out of but for his insane mother; whereas Joffrey's was sharpened to a point and quite deliberately performed. But both of them have an underlying sadistic streak, which one might argue comes from the same source: their overindulgent mothers. Both are raised from birth to believe their shit don't stink, and both have their cruel streaks excused and their every whim indulged. They're like medieval Cartmans.

And I don't think the similarity is coincidental, in book or in show: clearly Mr. Martin has his opinions on boys who are mollycoddled by their mothers. For poor Sansa, it's a cruel irony that she exchanges the tyranny of a mummy's boy for... the tyranny of another mummy's boy. The show underlines this point when Robyn throws her gift out of the Moon Door, much as Joffrey cut Tyrion's books into pieces: both boys are extremely ungrateful for the gift's they've received, and the only difference is that Joffrey intends something with his actions, whereas it just doesn't occur to Robyn to give a fuck. Deliberate cruelty vs. casual cruelty: I wonder which one's worse? I suppose that's quite a big theme in the story now that I think about it... but I'm going on too much.

snip

And this is where GRRM should have studied the works of Harry Harlow and subsequent child psychologists. Because portraying the love of a mother as a source of both weakness and sadism rather than a protection against those two things... makes him a very foolish man indeed.

[Woman of War]

This is why I really don't like the early reveal: if they repeat the information again, then it makes very clear to both book and show viewers that Sansa's knowledge of Lysa & Petyr role in the death of Jon Arryn and the subsequent letter to Cersei, is important in itself (presumably Sansa will use it take down Littlefinger).

And if the show does not repeat the Jon Arryn reveal (which I think is likely) then it makes clear that the reason the information (about Jon Arryn & Lysa's letter to Catelyn) was given to book Sansa was merely to inform the readers and that Sansa is just a POV character with no actual arc, and that show Sansa will most likely remain in ignorance until she is rescued. Which bodes ill for book Sansa.

I also would have preferred it if Sansa had done some investigation of her own to unveil Baelish's secrets instead of getting them served on a silver platter. But so far this hasn't happened in the books either, we are still waiting for that kind of initiative.

And this is where GRRM should have studied the works of Harry Harlow and subsequent child psychologists. Because portraying the love of a mother as a source of both weakness and sadism rather than a protection against those two things... makes him a very foolish man indeed.

Either mothers are overprotective or negligent, either they are overidentifying or too distant, not enough Tiger Mom or too much of it.......... Mothers just can't do it right ;), their mistake.

[voodooqueen126]

I also would have preferred it if Sansa had done some investigation of her own to unveil Baelish's secrets instead of getting them served on a silver platter. But so far this hasn't happened in the books either, we are still waiting for that kind of initiative.

Either mothers are overprotective or negligent, either they are overidentifying or too distant, not enough Tiger Mom or too much of it.......... Mothers just can't do it right ;), their mistake.

Or atleast show her researching, for instance, before I began writing original fiction I researched medieval herbs, with particular interest in anaphrodisiacs,I came across the works of Theophrastus (which contains some of the early descriptions/profiling of sociopathy), I also researched medieval cryptography and a little bit of steganography (coming across the fascinating Ave-Maria cipher)... seriously a few scenes where Sansa researches something... or seeks deliberately to gain information of Pedofinger... Given the show has 3 Sansa chapters to work with next season, showing a little bit of initiative and research on her part would be so much better than gratuitous nudity in some random brothel. But given that book Sansa doesn't do this... I have no hope for Show Sansa...

Well it's just silly, the idea that a mother's love somehow make her children weak, that indeed love can be excessive. Because if there's one thing this species has too much of, it's love.

[Colonel Green]

This is why I really don't like the early reveal: if they repeat the information again, then it makes very clear to both book and show viewers that Sansa's knowledge of Lysa & Petyr role in the death of Jon Arryn and the subsequent letter to Cersei, is important in itself (presumably Sansa will use it take down Littlefinger). And if the show does not repeat the Jon Arryn reveal (which I think is likely) then it makes clear that the reason the information (about Jon Arryn & Lysa's letter to Catelyn) was given to book Sansa was merely to inform the readers and that Sansa is just a POV character with no actual arc, and that show Sansa will most likely remain in ignorance until she is rescued. Which bodes ill for book Sansa.

If they don't repeat the reveal it may also be that they'd rather have Sansa come by that information some other way in the future, closer to when she might do something with it, which is more in line with the show's narrative style (even in the books, I think GRRM's handling of that is a bit awkward, reflecting the decision to abandon the five-year gap; we were supposed to jump five years ahead and meet the highly Stockholm'd "Alayne", whereas AFFC ends up picking up right after and the revelation is dismissed in like one sentence).

[voodooqueen126]

If they don't repeat the reveal it may also be that they'd rather have Sansa come by that information some other way in the future, closer to when she might do something with it, which is more in line with the show's narrative style (even in the books, I think GRRM's handling of that is a bit awkward, reflecting the decision to abandon the five-year gap; we were supposed to jump five years ahead and meet the highly Stockholm'd "Alayne", whereas AFFC ends up picking up right after and the revelation is dismissed in like one sentence).

I sincerely hope you're right.

[if it please m'lord]

I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone on these boards who doesn't want S4 to end this way ;)

Agreed. But, sadly, "Lady Stoneheart" is NOT going to be part of the show. At least not this season. Definitively.

[Korgan]

But, sadly, "Lady Stoneheart" is NOT going to be part of the show. At least not this season. Definitively.

How do you know that? Any external sources or just a guess? Because I think that she can still appear in this season, maybe in the last episode, just to

Spoiler

send Brienne to kill Jaime.

don't you think? That's a good cliffhanger for the show as was for the book.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

If they don't repeat the reveal it may also be that they'd rather have Sansa come by that information some other way in the future, closer to when she might do something with it, which is more in line with the show's narrative style (even in the books, I think GRRM's handling of that is a bit awkward, reflecting the decision to abandon the five-year gap; we were supposed to jump five years ahead and meet the highly Stockholm'd "Alayne", whereas AFFC ends up picking up right after and the revelation is dismissed in like one sentence).

Do you know this to be true?

Also, there are those who say it doesn't matter what isn't in the books. I should say that I'm not one of them.

It's been a long time since I read it, but I don't recall feeling like Sansa's knowledge of Littlefinger's crimes was dismissed. I got the feeling she was just saving it for a rainy day. She probably knows enough by now to know that (a) she can't just blurt out a dangerous truth without being punished, and ( B) the enemy of her enemy is not necessarily her friend, so she needs to be very careful in how she uses that information.

But use it she will (I hope)