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Mr Smith

(Book spoilers) So the Lannister gold has dried up?

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember nothing in the book that suggests the mines under Casterly Rock were running dry. Probably not a terrible change to make, and a nice metaphor for the eventual disintegration of Lannister power, but a radical change none the less. They're getting bold.



In other news, I'm glad they're emphasising the importance of the Iron Bank.



Thoughts?


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[. . . ] a nice metaphor for the eventual disintegration of Lannister power[.]

Thoughts?

My thought exactly. The mines are dry; the children are crippled, mad, and exiled; Tywin is killed; the Lannisters are in decline. The gold is more so the TV audience grasps the symbolism.

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Yes, the Lanister power without foundations is a nice turn. I also like the idea that they are emphasising the danger in not paying the Iron Bank. I always thought that it needed to be further mentioned in the Books.


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Not a fan of this.



I understand the need to emphasize the importance of the Iron Bank, but this seems like a short sighted way to do so. How is this not well known throughout Westoros? Does Tywin have all the goldsmiths, minters, miners, and merchants dealing in supplying said professions on some type of hush-money/welfare program? How was he supplying Robert for years with tourney purses without gold? Was Littlefinger duplicitous in Tywin's fraud?



This screams of something that will never be mentioned again however.


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Two things, it would be sort of cool and ironic if the lannisters ultimate undoing is NOT paying their debt to a bank. Second I think they were trying the tighten up the whole why would the lannisters marry the tyrells motive, which kind of doesn't make much sense otherwise

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It's a fairly silly turn, in the sense that no, it's not thought out, much as their turn with Xaro's "wealthiest man in Qarth is in fact bankrupt" thing -- both raise the same questions. You'd think someone whose father was a banking executive might have at least a little more respect for the fundamentals of economics... or maybe not, I guess, after the bailouts? :dunno:



But in any case, I think it's fairly obvious that the change is there to mitigate Cersei still further. She's not going to tell the Iron Bank she won't pay up because she's recklessly arrogant on the topic... but because she'll have no choice. Boo-hoo. :(



(Yeah, not a fan of the whitewash. She's such a bland character.)


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I always got the impression in the books that the Lannisters remained greatly wealthy, while the crown itself was broke. Separate entities. Like as if a rich person was the owner of a bankrupt company, or vice versa.


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Eh, it was kind of funny in an ironic sort of way (and a bit tactless, since Lena Headey is/was reportedly broke herself :stillsick: ), but most of all it felt repetitive. Like, we get it, the Iron Bank is powerful and the Lannisters need the Tyrells. They've literally said it in the previous episodes


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I think its just another way to bring up the Iron Bank on the show so it'll be clear to show watchers what a big deal they are when Stannis meets with them in what looks like the next episode.



Besides that if the Lannister gold is drying up or gone it would explain a lot about Tywin's actions and attitude. This may be one of those interesting tidbit kind of changes for the show that don't really have any impact but do help explain and improve a lot about characters that we didn't see all that much and didn't understand the reasoning behind in the books.


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It's a fairly silly turn, in the sense that no, it's not thought out, much as their turn with Xaro's "wealthiest man in Qarth is in fact bankrupt" thing -- both raise the same questions. You'd think someone whose father was a banking executive might have at least a little more respect for the fundamentals of economics... or maybe not, I guess, after the bailouts? :dunno:

But in any case, I think it's fairly obvious that the change is there to mitigate Cersei still further. She's not going to tell the Iron Bank she won't pay up because she's recklessly arrogant on the topic... but because she'll have no choice. Boo-hoo. :(

(Yeah, not a fan of the whitewash. She's such a bland character.)

This is also a good point.

Makes Cersei's Fuck You to the IB much less a matter of "A Queen can do as she wills" and more a matter of "Woe is the women left to deal with the debts of her inept husband and lying father."

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Exactly. I mean, I suppose they went to one another, "Well, why didn't Tywin just buy the crown out of debt?" Because in the book he actively refuses to cancel the crown's debts to him, but I think that's obviously because he isn't going to cripple the Lannisters by erasing debt while everyone else gets to hold the crown's debts to them; it makes the Lannisters relatively weaker compared to the rest, and that's never going to happen.



So maybe they went, "Well, why doesn't Cersei cancel the debt, at least?" And... probably because she loves being Lady of Casterly Rock and isn't going to weaken herself relative to the other debt holders, either. Better to weaken them by telling them to fuck off or to take stuff she's very happy to give in return for debt forgiveness. But no, that's too significant a pettiness to allow to stand.



I could, of course, be wrong. But there's obviously been a pattern from day 1 with their treatment of Cersei of filing down the rough edges, so to speak, and this conveniently seems to fit that pattern.


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This was news to me too. But, taking into consideration that the greatness of the Lions is on the edge of the cliff, I didn't think it such an important change; just a very interesting bit of info.



The Iron Bank becoming more and more important (and Tywin's words about it, especially) seemed to be the key of that conversation to me, though. Especially now that Stannis is clearly heading to Braavos for a reunion with Nestoris in the next ep.


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"the Tyrells are our only true rivals in terms of resources"



"our last working mine ran dry two years ago"




how does that make any sense?


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It seems like a necessity if you want to make the Iron Bank more of a player in the whole scene. Otherwise, people will ask why Tywin doesn't just pull some gold out of his ass and bypass the Iron Bank completely.


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"the Tyrells are our only true rivals in terms of resources"

"our last working mine ran dry two years ago"

how does that make any sense?

I assume they've got resources other than gold mines. And they do have a big port.

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They probably still have money "running", but they aren't as rich as people think they are because they're main resources are gone.



Either way, some posters considered this idea at some point, IICR. And it's not completely far-fetched. Also, I like the idea of how everybody keeps talking how Lannisters are filthy rich, and how they don't need to worry about money. It makes sense that it's actually not true :lol:


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Just because the gold mines dried up, doesn't mean the Lannisters are broke. Tywin is thinking big picture, but I'm sure they probably have a large gold reserve and are actively collecting on debts owed to them by several parties (including the Crown). Three years is about the time frame of the show, so it's interesting that when all heck breaks loose, Tywin decides to get involved in continental politics after his self-imposed exile. Perhaps he saw the writing on the wall and had spent the past 17/19 years investing/organizing/managing the dwindling mines in order to keep the Westerlands profitable.



Plus, with the war on, people might not bat an eye if the Westerlands cease minting for a while and instead fortify their borders and plump up their armies instead. I'm sure it's an open secret that some of the gold mines have dried up, but only Tywin and his closest financial advisors would know the full scope of what's going on financially at Casterly Rock.


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but yes, it's meh that they're, once again, whitewashing Cersei about this. She won't be not paying the IB because "omg I'm the Queen fuck off, I have more important things to worry about" but because she actually has nothing to pay them with. :/


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Cersei will still look recklessly arrogant when she tells the Iron Bank to fuck off. Show is hammering the point home this season that that is the LAST thing you do to the Iron Bank. Tywin has apparently known for 3 years and this episode kind of points out he has been doing what he can to make sure they get paid, which is the prudent thing to do. I really that being a poor Cercei whitewashed moment when it happens.


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"the Tyrells are our only true rivals in terms of resources"

"our last working mine ran dry two years ago"

how does that make any sense?

The Lannisters aren't broke..........yet. But they will be if they keep lending money to the crown. They still have their own resources for the moment but the belt-tightening is about to begin and someone else needs to start paying the crown's debts, at least till the Lannisters can find another source of money.

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