(Book spoilers) So the Lannister gold has dried up?

[Chebyshov]

I think she was just playing Margaery. This is Cersei, after all. She may not be the smartest player of the GoT (and certainly not the sanest) but she isn't that stupid either.

Right, she's just not as smart as she thinks she is.

[DrownedSnow]

Can't we admit this was a poorly thought out and unnecessary change?

The problem with the IB wasn't that they couldn't pay the debt "Right Now" but that Cersei stopped making any payments at all, which is something Tywin wouldn't have done, gold or no gold. Nor is it believable that there has been no gold mined for 3 years and no one knows it or even suspects it.

It seems like it to us but I bet show watchers won't bat an eye about him keeping the mines running out a secret. Keep in mind that even productive mines aren't always in use. If the Lannisters were often sitting on more gold than they could spend then why would mines be in full swing? It makes more sense to close some and rotate or lower/raise production as needed. Only a few people would know the real measure and Tywin could pay them or kill them. It's not a stretch to think that those most likely to suspect anything could be amiss would be Lannister bannermen and what exactly would they care? It's not this big logical leap people seem to be implying. I don't like it and it's not as clean as it could be but its not impossible.

And no, it's not about them being able to pay off the full debt right away but it does make sense that they would if they had more money than the gods. If Cersei tells the bank to suck it next season, which may not even happen now, the audience would rightly wonder why Tywin hadn't dealt with it before and why Cersei wouldn't just pay up. They've given reason to both. However, the show isn't the books and characters have different motivations sometimes. I'm betting that since Davos may be going to Bravos THIS season they just setting up that Tywin has already missed a few payments because neither he nor the crown could afford them at the moment. This just speeds up that whole plot point and maybe gives Stannis those troops sooner rather than later. Who knows. The only thing I am pretty sure of is that they are not going to stick to the events of the books here.

[Cas Stark]

It seems like it to us but I bet show watchers won't bat an eye about him keeping the mines running out a secret. Keep in mind that even productive mines aren't always in use. If the Lannisters were often sitting on more gold than they could spend then why would mines be in full swing? It makes more sense to close some and rotate or lower/raise production as needed. Only a few people would know the real measure and Tywin could pay them or kill them. It's not a stretch to think that those most likely to suspect anything could be amiss would be Lannister bannermen and what exactly would they care? It's not this big logical leap people seem to be implying. I don't like it and it's not as clean as it could be but its not impossible.

And no, it's not about them being able to pay off the full debt right away but it does make sense that they would if they had more money than the gods. If Cersei tells the bank to suck it next season, which may not even happen now, the audience would rightly wonder why Tywin hadn't dealt with it before and why Cersei wouldn't just pay up. They've given reason to both. However, the show isn't the books and characters have different motivations sometimes. I'm betting that since Davos may be going to Bravos THIS season they just setting up that Tywin has already missed a few payments because neither he nor the crown could afford them at the moment. This just speeds up that whole plot point and maybe gives Stannis those troops sooner rather than later. Who knows. The only thing I am pretty sure of is that they are not going to stick to the events of the books here.

That's what D&D rely on....that they can throw out plot points and then drop them later and no one notices...the TV audience will, presumably think 'oh the Lannisters are broke and that's why they can't pay the IB'...

Which turns Cersei into not a really terrible ruler with bad judgement, but a poor gal thrown into a situation she can't control who is doing the best she can. Gag me.

The only reason they're having Stannis go to the IB instead of vice versa is because it's better TV...more dramatic, there is no actual plot logic afoot there. IMO

[Hard Hugh]

I think she was just playing Margaery. This is Cersei, after all. She may not be the smartest player of the GoT (and certainly not the sanest) but she isn't that stupid either.

thats how I took this as well. She didnt pull a 180.....she was a foil against Margery (thinking she was being clever) and the more mature Cersi (puling off being clever)

[Tixu Oty]

I think she may have just been sober. Book!Cersei doesn't completely go nuts until post-Tywin's death. I do see what you're saying though; cool calculation is quite a jump for her.

Aha, you may have a point there!

Let me direct you to: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/109204-book-spoilers-cersei-the-judicial-manipulator-appreciation-thread/

Thanks Chebyshov, I'll take a look at that thread, see if it can convince me. Right now, I guess I gotta accept the fact that Cersei suddenly decided to suck it up to people she hates because it's the explanation that makes the most sense, but I still don't find it quite satisfactory. Waiting for some more explanation on this Cersei/money/Tyrell thing in episodes to come.

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

Which turns Cersei into not a really terrible ruler with bad judgement, but a poor gal thrown into a situation she can't control who is doing the best she can. Gag me.

i didn't think of that...but your right..that would really suck...Cersei's epic fails are what i've been dying to see happen...

but just like after Oathkeeper, i had faith that D&D would not make such a huge blunder as to reunite Bran/Jon, im going to be patient and hope that they will still show her jerking the IB guy around and display it more as her doing it just because she can vs. doing it to save face for circumstances beyond her control...

one small ray of hope is that Tywin was referring to the the Lannisters having no gold while the IB (in the book) comes to collect on the loans to the Crown...if you recall when Tyrion was master of coin, he mentions to Tywin how the Crown owes the Lannisters 3 million and Tywin implies (not unclearly) that the Crown and Lannister fortunes are not the same thing...

it does make sense if you think about it...it was the crown that borrowed the gold from the IB to fund their wars...even if the Lannisters were overflowing in gold (like the books implied), why would the Lannister estate pay for the debts incurred by the crown?

while i might be wrong on this, i do not believe any monarch has ever used his/her own finances to pay for Government expenses/debts...

so i will hope that D&D will not screw up Cersei's screw ups and will indeed show her as inept and stupid as she is in the books :drunk:

[Chebyshov]

so i will hope that D&D will not screw up Cersei's screw ups and will indeed show her as inept and stupid as she is in the books :drunk:

Oh I have faith in them with her plot moving forward. In fact they've already set up seeds of her demise to the point where last episode, a scene started where all we saw was wine being poured into a goblet, and immediately I was like "Cersei?"

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

Oh I have faith in them with her plot moving forward. In fact they've already set up seeds of her demise to the point where last episode, a scene started where all we saw was wine being poured into a goblet, and immediately I was like "Cersei?"

hahaha, your absolutely right...in the scene with Tywin and Cersei when she stands up at the end and its looks like she almost sways a bit before steadying herself on the table, i couldn't help wondering "is she always drunk?" im sure not everyone left the same, but I guess i'm conditioned to think she's always drunk, so always looking for slight sways and slurs :drunk:

[DrownedSnow]

That's what D&D rely on....that they can throw out plot points and then drop them later and no one notices...the TV audience will, presumably think 'oh the Lannisters are broke and that's why they can't pay the IB'...

Which turns Cersei into not a really terrible ruler with bad judgement, but a poor gal thrown into a situation she can't control who is doing the best she can. Gag me.

The only reason they're having Stannis go to the IB instead of vice versa is because it's better TV...more dramatic, there is no actual plot logic afoot there. IMO

Is it better TV? I think it's simpler TV, quicker. I don't like a lot of the changes to characters such as Stannis, Shae, and Cersei but that is just comparing them to the books. I think they made changes to make them more or less likeable for reasons that I don't see. Although, I do think when they make plot changes it does usually add up in the end. I just hate them doing things to shorten storylines then giving us filler arcs or whole filler characters like Ros (though I liked Locke). Like why didn't Ygritte attack in episode one? I'll bet that decision has more to do with the budget than anything else. I'm actually afraid the Mance attack won't happen at all or won't be shown. This is stuff that really effects the show to me. At least I can count on them using the Lannsters limited resources to establish a character motivation, even if it's unique to the show.

Cersei stuff is confusing because people hate her and they can't change that no matter how tortured they make her. She just chooses to do messed up things. Even if they cut her and the Iron Bank entirely she is still going to be a terrible ruler and screw things up. If she goes completely off the rails it may even be more effective this way. We shall see.

[Cas Stark]

Is it better TV? I think it's simpler TV, quicker. I don't like a lot of the changes to characters such as Stannis, Shae, and Cersei but that is just comparing them to the books. I think they made changes to make them more or less likeable for reasons that I don't see. Although, I do think when they make plot changes it does usually add up in the end. I just hate them doing things to shorten storylines then giving us filler arcs or whole filler characters like Ros (though I liked Locke). Like why didn't Ygritte attack in episode one? I'll bet that decision has more to do with the budget than anything else. I'm actually afraid the Mance attack won't happen at all or won't be shown. This is stuff that really effects the show to me. At least I can count on them using the Lannsters limited resources to establish a character motivation, even if it's unique to the show.

Cersei stuff is confusing because people hate her and they can't change that no matter how tortured they make her. She just chooses to do messed up things. Even if they cut her and the Iron Bank entirely she is still going to be a terrible ruler and screw things up. If she goes completely off the rails it may even be more effective this way. We shall see.

They don't like Stannis, they have said as much, that's why that change.

I will give them a pass on Cersei, even though they've gone overboard with the whitewash, because she's in the show for the long haul, and after Tywin dies it will only be her and Marg in KL...so making her a one note villain wouldn't work too well to keep viewers interested.

I have no idea why they changed Shae and I am convinced that change is going to bite them in the ass hard, unless they have Tywin kill her and not Tyrion.

[DrownedSnow]

it does make sense if you think about it...it was the crown that borrowed the gold from the IB to fund their wars...even if the Lannisters were overflowing in gold (like the books implied), why would the Lannister estate pay for the debts incurred by the crown?

while i might be wrong on this, i do not believe any monarch has ever used his/her own finances to pay for Government expenses/debts...

Because owning the full 9 million debt to Lannisters is safer for his grandchildren and Tywin is all about family, otherwise he would have killed Tyrion long ago. They've been largely covering any crown expenses under Robert and now that Lannister blood sits the throne they would do the same. In the book the crown is making the payments so it's not an issue while Tywin is alive. Had there been a need in the book you can bet Tywin would have paid the Iron Bank and transfered the debt, especially because they are portrayed as having an infinite supply of gold. It still makes zero sense that Robert racked up that much debt in the first place. Did he cut taxes to zero?

I think that rulers have used their own money many times throughout history to raise an army or some such thing. A lot of kings would simply take their "personal" money from the treasury and the king and country were the same thing. I king couldn't be like "I'm loaded but my country is bankrupt" unless he didn't want to be king anymore.

[DrownedSnow]

They don't like Stannis, they have said as much, that's why that change.

I will give them a pass on Cersei, even though they've gone overboard with the whitewash, because she's in the show for the long haul, and after Tywin dies it will only be her and Marg in KL...so making her a one note villain wouldn't work too well to keep viewers interested.

I have no idea why they changed Shae and I am convinced that change is going to bite them in the ass hard, unless they have Tywin kill her and not Tyrion.

They don't? Didn't know that. Stannis is a loveable old buzzkill in the books. I liked him as honorable but he still let others believe in or say what they wanted so long as they followed their duty. Him burning "infidels" really changed his character. They want him to be more of a villain maybe? They've done good stuff with characters like Tywin and Margaery though so it's give and take I guess.

Cersei and the goings on in King's Landing are going to be front and center for a while so it is sensible to not want viewers to be sick of her. I just don't think its working. Her fans like her because she's a such a &$%#@. Wonder if she's going to be begging for gold from Highgarden soon. I hope she just demands they start sending more money after the wedding because they need to "pull their weight" or something. That would be hilarious.

[TheFullmetalAlchemist]

It's a fairly silly turn, in the sense that no, it's not thought out, much as their turn with Xaro's "wealthiest man in Qarth is in fact bankrupt" thing -- both raise the same questions. You'd think someone whose father was a banking executive might have at least a little more respect for the fundamentals of economics... or maybe not, I guess, after the bailouts? :dunno:

But in any case, I think it's fairly obvious that the change is there to mitigate Cersei still further. She's not going to tell the Iron Bank she won't pay up because she's recklessly arrogant on the topic... but because she'll have no choice. Boo-hoo. :(

(Yeah, not a fan of the whitewash. She's such a bland character.)

lol. D&D are really going overboard with the Cercei whitewashing. It's way past nauseating at this point.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

They don't? Didn't know that. Stannis is a loveable old buzzkill in the books. I liked him as honorable but he still let others believe in or say what they wanted so long as they followed their duty. Him burning "infidels" really changed his character. They want him to be more of a villain maybe? They've done good stuff with characters like Tywin and Margaery though so it's give and take I guess.

They did an interview in S2 saying words to the effect "Stannis would be a terrible king". I took it to mean that they wanted people to focus on Renly. Some people took offense to the statement. More recently however, Weiss seems to be continuing that line. Benioff to me appears more balanced, but people just lump them together anyway.

[marsyao]

I just wonder how Tywin manages to keep a secrect about all of his gold mines has dried up at least 3 years ago? Many people would work in Lannister minning indistry, workers, clerks, administrators, traders, guards and their families, there is no way these people would not know Lannister gold mine produce no gold now, by what way Tywin have these people keep their mouths shut? He obviously can not have them killed or put them in prison, since that would be equal to reveal his secrect

[Cas Stark]

I just wonder how Tywin manages to keep a secrect about all of his gold mines has dried up at least 3 years ago? Many people would work in Lannister minning indistry, workers, clerks, administrators, traders, guards and their families, there is no way these people would not know Lannister gold mine produce no gold now, by what way Tywin have these people keep their mouths shut? He obviously can not have them killed or put them in prison, since that would be equal to reveal his secrect

You're not supposed to think about it. You're supposed to register only "Lannisters are broke".

Clearly, keeping such a thing secret would be virtually impossible. And, knowing Tywin Lannister, even if it were true, he would have spent the last 3 years coming up with an alternate source of income...they would go into shipping or something. He wouldn't sit on his ass and do nothing, lending out his remaining $$ to the Iron Throne...all the while spending money like water all over Westeros.

[Seneti]

OK, so all I want to say is this: Is Cersei bipolar or what??

[...]

What I didn't get, though, was the fact that this speech came AFTER Cersei being all nice to Margaery. I mean stressing the importance of the alliance didn't seem so much needed if Cersei is already acting wise enough of her own free will. What is up with that? I mean some of you here have speculated that she's only sucking up to the Tyrells because of Tyrion's upcoming trial, but if that's the case, it really wasn't obvious at all. I mean to me, she seemed to genuinely accept, and even suggest the Tommen/Margaery wedding. Wow. Guys I admire your confidence, but I don't know.

I think she was just playing Margaery. This is Cersei, after all. She may not be the smartest player of the GoT (and certainly not the sanest) but she isn't that stupid either.

This. Cersei was lying. She was trying to:

1) see if Margaery would say something incriminating that would give her away as a social-ladder-climbing, power-hogging Tyrell b**** (basically tempting her to tell Cersei "yeah, Joff was horrible, I only married him for the crown and now I'm marrying Tommen for just the same reason")

2) play nice with Margaery so she would convince her father to judge Tyrion harshly.

ShowCersei has just as much love for Margaery as BookCersei: zero, nada, zip.

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

Because owning the full 9 million debt to Lannisters is safer for his grandchildren and Tywin is all about family, otherwise he would have killed Tyrion long ago. They've been largely covering any crown expenses under Robert and now that Lannister blood sits the throne they would do the same. In the book the crown is making the payments so it's not an issue while Tywin is alive. Had there been a need in the book you can bet Tywin would have paid the Iron Bank and transfered the debt, especially because they are portrayed as having an infinite supply of gold. It still makes zero sense that Robert racked up that much debt in the first place. Did he cut taxes to zero?

I think that rulers have used their own money many times throughout history to raise an army or some such thing. A lot of kings would simply take their "personal" money from the treasury and the king and country were the same thing. I king couldn't be like "I'm loaded but my country is bankrupt" unless he didn't want to be king anymore.

agree to that if they have the cash, without it, doesnt matter who owns the debt, because if Crown owes it to Lannisters and Lannisters borrowed from Iron Banks, puts the "Family" in greater risk...

You're not supposed to think about it. You're supposed to register only "Lannisters are broke".

Clearly, keeping such a thing secret would be virtually impossible. And, knowing Tywin Lannister, even if it were true, he would have spent the last 3 years coming up with an alternate source of income...they would go into shipping or something. He wouldn't sit on his ass and do nothing, lending out his remaining $$ to the Iron Throne...all the while spending money like water all over Westeros.

i thought of this as well. i mean they have just been spending like crazy havent they? the wedding, the war etc? (or were those covered by the Crown and not the groom's family?) Tywin did not say the lannisters being bankrupt, He mentions that the mines have run dry in the westerlands...

this is Big Daddy Tywin we're talking about, he's got plans and contingency plans for everything...basically ended the northern rebellion using just Frey and Bolton...you can bet that he anticipated this day a long time ago...he's been at Casterly Rock since resigning as Hand of the King over 20 years ago right? He would never be that stupid to just put all his eggs in one basket, mining.

everyone invested in mining anything knows eventually well runs dry. While Lannisters might have had a huge influx of gold because of the mines, they MUST have other sources of income...

so i dont believe this means Lannisters have no money, just rather that they've taken a big hit and need another resourceful family's alliance to maintain their facade..something very common for uber-wealthy families even in the real world

[The Fallen]

` I'm sure it's been mentioned already, but I guess Kevan didn't get the memo in ADwD when he thinks they may have to pay the I.B. from their own money.

[Hielo y Fuego]

Right, she's just not as smart as she thinks she is.

Exactly. I've always gotten the impression that Cersei truly believes to be as smart and shrewd as her father, even though we all know that the apple fell very far from the tree.

This. Cersei was lying. She was trying to:

1) see if Margaery would say something incriminating that would give her away as a social-ladder-climbing, power-hogging Tyrell b**** (basically tempting her to tell Cersei "yeah, Joff was horrible, I only married him for the crown and now I'm marrying Tommen for just the same reason")

2) play nice with Margaery so she would convince her father to judge Tyrion harshly.

ShowCersei has just as much love for Margaery as BookCersei: zero, nada, zip.

Either this or she was trying to find the buttons in Margaery, see if she could push them the way she did with Sansa. Obviously, Cersei must know that Marg is not nearly as gullible and won't be as easy to handle and manipulate as Sansa, and so she has to find other ways to do it.

Since it appears that there will be no Kettleblacks in the show, I think this is all about D&D finding another way for Cersei to keep an eye on Marg and find evidence she can use against her in future seasons.