(Book spoilers) So the Lannister gold has dried up?

[Hippocras]

Hippocras,

Kevan's epilogue in ADwD makes it fairly plain that Casterly Rock still has plenty of gold. The richness of the mines are a detail Tyrion brings up more than once, and he's resided at the Rock (and worked in and around it) longer than either of his siblings, and so you suppose he'd know.

It's an invention of the show.

Ok, thanks for jogging my memory. Still, even if there is still gold at this point in the books, it doesn't mean that status won't change soon enough.

[Maia]

Hippocras,

Kevan's epilogue in ADwD makes it fairly plain that Casterly Rock still has plenty of gold.

Indeed. not to mention that Robb's forces plundered a few mines not belonging directly to the Lannisters and there was gold in those mines, too. I mean, people don't just let their gold reserves sit in a mine - they are periodically transported to vaults inside defensible fortresses, etc.

Besides, book Tywin probably wouldn't have acted like he did, confidently going it alone against the whole realm, if he had shortage of money.

And what is show Tywin thinking of, letting the "king's men" such as Polliver continue their robbing of the populace? Shouldn't he be even more interested than book Tywin (who was ahead of him there) in re-establishing the peace and production in the Riverlands?

IMHO, the show-runners are laying it on way too thick. Yes, Lannisters are going to crumble from inside, but in the books it was despite their riches, not because they were running out. And that was far more interesting, IMHO. Show already had that theme with Xaro and Littlefinger, this is downright repetitive now.

[lokisnow]

well Tywin's been aware of this for ages and has been tightly managing the supply of gold into circulation to keep the value of the shiny metal high. Highly productive mines pumping out new gold would just steadily depress the value of his reserves.

But what I immediately thought of was this, what exactly were the terms that Tyrion offered in DWD? because if he offered all the gold of a CR gold mine for a year, hah, he just offered them nothing to support him. :-p

[Petyr Patter]

well Tywin's been aware of this for ages and has been tightly managing the supply of gold into circulation to keep the value of the shiny metal high. Highly productive mines pumping out new gold would just steadily depress the value of his reserves.

But what I immediately thought of was this, what exactly were the terms that Tyrion offered in DWD? because if he offered all the gold of a CR gold mine for a year, hah, he just offered them nothing to support him. :-p

Tywin Lannister loaned 3 million dragons to the throne. Tyrion, if Martin communicated effectively and I did the math right, offered the Second Sons 150,000 gold dragons (plus lands and a keep to Brown Ben). A better way to see this difference:

150,000

3,000,000

Eddard Stark, who is no Hot Pie, believed 3,000,000 to be a fortune of incredible magnitude. I just can't believe a House that can loan out that kind of money is in any dangerous financial straits.

[Lord Varys]

What?! The Lannisters are now broke?! That one really had me almost pissing myself during a very healthy laugh! I really can't take this show seriously anymore.

This is Westeros, and even in the real world you can fool your wife and family only for a short period of time when you have lost your job and still leave the house at the same time in the morning. Money and gold are real things, and people in the Westerlands and at KL would know if Tywin was broke. Those are gold mines, people do work there, and they TALK!

On the other hand: Sansa and Littlefinger entering the Vale through THE BLOODY GATE when coming by ship is almost as ridiculous. What did they do? Take a detour on the High Road to hang around with the clansmen?!

[hollowcrown]

well Tywin's been aware of this for ages and has been tightly managing the supply of gold into circulation to keep the value of the shiny metal high. Highly productive mines pumping out new gold would just steadily depress the value of his reserves.

But what I immediately thought of was this, what exactly were the terms that Tyrion offered in DWD? because if he offered all the gold of a CR gold mine for a year, hah, he just offered them nothing to support him. :-p

This is pretty realistic. The gold may have run out but Tywin is still controlling its refinement and supply to keep its value high.

[Ran]

Guys, the show made this bit up. It's not a book thing. Tyrion knows just as well as Kevan and Tywin knows in the novels that Casterly Rock's mines are just fine.

Remember that the show is a separate canon from the novels.

[salmonsnake]

If I understand correctly what they wanted to convey with that piece of information, it'd been perhaps more optimal to refer to the loans LF took from the IBOB in conjunction with the size of their army when compared to that of the Tyrells. Would have tied up the incoming downfall of the 'steward house' quite nicely with the reason they need the Tyrells, as well as LF's scheming and also Dany's decision to stay in Meereen. Then there would have been no need to invent this thing

[voodooqueen126]

IMHO, the show-runners are laying it on way too thick. Yes, Lannisters are going to crumble from inside, but in the books it was despite their riches, not because they were running out. And that was far more interesting, IMHO. Show already had that theme with Xaro and Littlefinger, this is downright repetitive now.

This. So much.

There are countries that are rolling in gold, diamonds and oil, and yet are horrifically poor. Not because they lack resources but because they have corrupt, unstable governments.

The Book Lannister's are the same: well run they were prosperous, but the weakness and instability of their rulers destroys them.

[Fightbringer]

not sure about this change, it seems like something that would be kind of a cool revelation if it were in the books, but it also seems like a reasonably big thing for the show to just invent. Still, I suppose it helps explain why the iron bank arent getting paid back out of tywins own pocket, as surely (at least if everyone was aware of the problem of the iron bank as they are in the show) it would represent a good investment on tywins part to continue the crowns loan repayments out of his own pocket, in order to avoid another war and keep his family on the throne. Also, by the point we're up to now in the books we're hearing that the lannisters have started to run into financial trouble through all the money they've spent on the wars and other stuff, so the gold running out ultimately leads to the same situation that we have in the books right now anyway, so I guess, unless they take it any further to make stuff happen that doesnt in the books, which i doubt they will do, this change doesnt really matter in the grand scheme of things. There are bigger changes out there I have more of a problem with.

[Lord Varys]

This thing is really priceless, guys. It should enable pretty much anyone to see that the TV show is pretty much nothing but glorified (bad) fan fiction. It's not an adaptation anymore, it's loosely based on/inspired by the works of GRRM, and should be treated as such. I for one are done with comparing this thing to the actual books.

I'm even surprised now if stuff from the books is brought up unexpectedly - like Sunspear, the Water Gardens, or Oberyn's daughters. I don't expect stuff like that in this thing anymore.

[Batman]

I do not dig this change at all. I understand, as has been pointed out, that it seems to be done so that Cersei is not outright stupid in refusing to pay the debts. What is the world coming to when even Cersei cant be stupid? You need to mitigate that too? I don't know why but that change really brought me down on the episode as a whole. I understand at this point they are changing a lot of stuff, but this one really hit me.

[Lord Varys]

Oh, and by the way: This temple analogy was also crap. People are people, and people can be killed. There should be good bankers as well as incompetent bankers with the Iron Bank. Killing a good CEO and replacing him with a moron would make a difference (or replacing a good board of directors with a group of idiots).

The theme of the downfall of House Lannister - or the history of House Lannister (hello Damon, Tyland, Jason, Tytos) - completely relies on the fact that it was only Tywin who enabled the Lannisters to transform their natural resources into political power. Cersei, Jaime, and even Kevan can't do that. They are either too stupid or not competent enough. Money is not everything. But without money the Lannisters would be nothing. Saying 'I'm rich' doesn't make you rich (I've tried), and a man like Tywin would have lost everything in the very moment it became evident that the mines are empty. He would have been ridiculed. And he would not have been able to project an image of strength from the - we are talking about real gold here. Tywin is not the Madoff guy fooling stupid rich people, it's a man who mines actual gold from actual mines in a society where you can invest into/buy actual goods. Not stuff on paper.

Can anyone really take this show seriously after this episode? I really can't. I can't even try anymore. It's simply too much.

[Lord Damian]

It is not surprising to me as I predicted that Tyrion, at the end of the series will survive, get Casterly Rock only to find out the mines have been dry which means the gold is (by the time we arrive there) all but dried up too. Tyrion will just sit back, laugh and demmand wine.

[Lord Damian]

The Lannisters cannot let this cat out of the bag as it will diminish their power if the other houses know that the 7-8 thousand years of gold pumping prosperity out of the Rock has dried up. Oh well, they still have Lannisport. Also, this stresses the fact that they need the tyrells more than ever.

[Duckface]

Oh, and by the way: This temple analogy was also crap. People are people, and people can be killed. There should be good bankers as well as incompetent bankers with the Iron Bank. Killing a good CEO and replacing him with a moron would make a difference (or replacing a good board of directors with a group of idiots).

The theme of the downfall of House Lannister - or the history of House Lannister (hello Damon, Tyland, Jason, Tytos) - completely relies on the fact that it was only Tywin who enabled the Lannisters to transform their natural resources into political power. Cersei, Jaime, and even Kevan can't do that. They are either too stupid or not competent enough. Money is not everything. But without money the Lannisters would be nothing. Saying 'I'm rich' doesn't make you rich (I've tried), and a man like Tywin would have lost everything in the very moment it became evident that the mines are empty. He would have been ridiculed. And he would not have been able to project an image of strength from the - we are talking about real gold here. Tywin is not the Madoff guy fooling stupid rich people, it's a man who mines actual gold from actual mines in a society where you can invest into/buy actual goods. Not stuff on paper.

Can anyone really take this show seriously after this episode? I really can't. I can't even try anymore. It's simply too much.

Totally agree. Also, Cersei not being stupid and making alliance with Margaery? waat

[Lord Damian]

Totally agree. Also, Cersei not being stupid and making alliance with Margaery? waat

I was blown away with the Cersei cozy up to Margeary. She hates her from the begginning. Also, her dissing on Joff like that. Joff was her pride and Joy, could do no wrong. The worse thing book Cersei ever says about Joff was that he was "willfull". Whitewashing of Cersei is quite dissapointing as she was just as evil as Joff.

[jons nissa]

Guys, the show made this bit up. It's not a book thing. Tyrion knows just as well as Kevan and Tywin knows in the novels that Casterly Rock's mines are just fine.

Remember that the show is a separate canon from the novels.

but has the show ever completely disagreed with something in the books before? tweaking and event or fact is one thing but doesn't saying the mines are dry when they're not create a major deviation that changes the actual story?

[Ran]

Probably not, since the problems Cersei encounters with the Iron Bank are there despite Casterly Rock having all that wealth. She's not going to beggar herself, personally, to deal with the Iron Bank when (she figures) she can just tell them to go suck eggs. They're simply giving Cersei the "better" motivation of not genuinely having the wherewithal to deal with it.

[Fevre River Warrior]

I wonder if D&D know how the story will evolve and perhaps the Lannisters will find their mines dried up....in the future. There still is a lot of story to be told in the books.

I agree that the show has made Cersei too soft. The book Cersei is just horrible, which is where Joffrey got his horribleness, but the show has really "whitewashed" her as you say. I loathe the book Cersei and hope both book and HBO Cersei meets a brutal, long drawn out and painful death then the time comes. I don't see the HBO Cersei taking the Walk of Shame, which is unfortunate. I really felt she deserved it in the book.

I am looking forward to the Iron Bank playing a larger role in the books and HBO show.