{Book Spoilers} Cersei the Judicial Manipulator Appreciation Thread

[JonDunn]

Really enjoyed how each of the three Cersei scenes was meant for her to work over one of the judges of the trial. The Marg conversation ended with Cersei telling her to talk to her father.

She was quite the chameleon in this episode, actually playing nice with Marg for once and trying to pretend to be the dutiful daughter.

She wants Tyrion pronounced guilty badly.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I love TV Cersei!!

[Emperoreddy]

Watching it again, the scene with Marg was really well done. The "What are you playing at?" looks she kept giving her when she was talking about Joff. You can just tell she felt she was being pulled into a trap. Then when Cercei started to suggest the marriage I wasn't sure if her eyes were going to roll out of her head or vomit the words out of her mouth. Looked like it physically pained her to do it. Then when Marg called her "siser, mother" oh man she wanted to kill her but nearly bit her tongue off.

I assume the game she is playing is buttering up the judges. Putting the marriage back on makes Mace happy, and she was clearly trying to play up Tywin, being the good daughter, and Obyern too.

My guess is her sole motivation at the moment is getting revenge on Tyrion by any means necessary, and since Jamie won't do it for her she needs to make sure the judges do it. She wants it so badly she is swallowing a lot of pride.

[averde]

It made Cersei look a bit more smart politically while still being stupidly vindictive, I like it. Cersei played on Margaerys hopes of being Queen, Oberyns love of family and want for revenge, and Tywins love of the Lannister legacy. It was good characterization for all the characters and having Tywin be the one to call her out on it was a nice touch.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Glad to see Cersei and Margaery with their outwardly polite but full of hidden snark relationship, like they have in the books (much better than that "If you ever call me sister again I'll have you strangled in your sleep" fiasco of last season)

I just hope Cersei will try to seduce Oberyn like she does in the book.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Mace Tyrell will buy it because he's Mace Tyrell.

Oberyn won't.

Neither will Tywin.

Either way it was a smart move... which only made me realise how much I don't recognise Cersei from the books here. People talk about how Stannis is ruined, what about Cersei? Isn't she ruined because she's "improved"? It's some sort of political correctness that stop them from make her the hysterical paranoid idiot she actually is?

[Emperoreddy]

It made Cersei look a bit more smart politically while still being stupidly vindictive, I like it. Cersei played on Margaerys hopes of being Queen, Oberyns love of family and want for revenge, and Tywins love of the Lannister legacy. It was good characterization for all the characters and having Tywin be the one to call her out on it was a nice touch.

The connecting trend in all three conversations is her trying to look like the "poor, victim, grieving mother". All three give her these looks like they don't believe she is doing it. Tywin sort of calls her on it, and comes off he knows what she is doing but can't will himself to care as long as she is being a good daughter.

[Emperoreddy]

Mace Tyrell will buy it because he's Mace Tyrell.

Oberyn won't.

Neither will Tywin.

Either way it was a smart move... which only made me realise how much I don't recognise Cersei from the books here. People talk about how Stannis is ruined, what about Cersei? Isn't she ruined because she's "improved"? It's some sort of political correctness that stop them from make her the hysterical paranoid idiot she actually is?

IDK because I always got the impression that the "improved" parts was a facade and the real her is the hysterical paranoid idiot that we get increasing glimpses at, and I think it will hit the tipping point when Tyrion escapes.

She was rather out of control and on full bitch patrol at the wedding, and she has irrationally nasty to Jamie (even before the "rape").

[Lord Timothy Lannister]

I feel like many of Cersei's and Dany's flaws are being whitewashed at the moment. I wonder if the show is going to go in a different direction with Cersei than the books? Maybe it's just me but this far into the book series I started to get the feeling she was a little nuts but in the show she seems like a master manipulator and politician.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

IDK because I always got the impression that the "improved" parts was a facade and the real her is the hysterical paranoid idiot that we get increasing glimpses at, and I think it will hit the tipping point when Tyrion escapes.

But I don't mean only this specific episode. Remember Cersei's conversations about Joffrey, she pretty much wonders why Joffrey is the little shit he was when in books she praised Joffrey's assholery as something Tommen should be.

[Gneisenau]

Mace Tyrell will buy it because he's Mace Tyrell.

Oberyn won't.

Neither will Tywin.

Either way it was a smart move... which only made me realise how much I don't recognise Cersei from the books here. People talk about how Stannis is ruined, what about Cersei? Isn't she ruined because she's "improved"? It's some sort of political correctness that stop them from make her the hysterical paranoid idiot she actually is?

I feel like they whitewashed Cersei be removing her agency. Joff, not Cersei ordered Robert's vastards deaths. And Cersei won't freely decide to cancel out her debts instead she wilk be forced too since the Lannisters are bankrupt, and then there is Cersei getting raped by Jaime and being forced to marry Loras.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Mace Tyrell will buy it because he's Mace Tyrell.

Oberyn won't.

Neither will Tywin.

Either way it was a smart move... which only made me realise how much I don't recognise Cersei from the books here. People talk about how Stannis is ruined, what about Cersei? Isn't she ruined because she's "improved"? It's some sort of political correctness that stop them from make her the hysterical paranoid idiot she actually is?

Very good point. I'm always bitching about how Martin made Cersei look like such a dumbass, mustache-twirling villain, so I'm kind of digging what they've been doing with the character in that regard. I only wish Lena's performance was more like book!Cersei in terms of fiery temper and bitchy snark. She's too cold and serious and reserved, but she's being like that since the pilot so I guess I'll have to accept it.

[Emperoreddy]

But I don't mean only this specific episode. Remember Cersei's conversations about Joffrey, she pretty much wonders why Joffrey is the little shit he was when in books she praised Joffrey's assholery as something Tommen should be.

I mean I agree, she has definitely been toned down and made more sympathetic in the show, but her crazy side is still there in the show too and getting worse and things turn to shit and she drinks more and more. There is definite change, I just still see it getting to the same place.

[SkaggCannibal]

Yes Cersei was wonderful this episode, a point of enjoyment troughout. I disagree with the opinions that book Cersei isn't clever enough to pull this off. Cersei is misjudged by people constantly, she's very capable of putting up a facade. We only got to know the real Cersei once we got chapters of her, and the show still isn't at that point yet. I'm sure we'll see more of the real cray-cray Cersei in the future, but Tywin still isn't dead yet and escaped Tyrion not lurking behind every corner. We'll see enough of it eventually.

[voodooqueen126]

I mean I agree, she has definitely been toned down and made more sympathetic in the show, but her crazy side is still there in the show too and getting worse and things turn to shit and she drinks more and more. There is definite change, I just still see it getting to the same place.

So basically she's nicer but still stupid, emotional and crazy.

I wish they had kept they had made her smarter and kept the vicious.

[Emperoreddy]

So basically she's nicer but still stupid, emotional and crazy.

I wish they had kept they had made her smarter and kept the vicious.

She is smarter in the show too, I think its more her arrogance and paranoia that leads to her "stupidity". And I still think she is pretty vicious, toned down definitely, but she is nasty in a different way (that ice cold bitchy way). I don't know any non book reader that finds her sympathetic. Everyone thought Joff was worse, but I know plenty that can't wait for karma to find its way to her.

This is also very in character with TV Cersei, its not the first time she used her true emotions as a manipulative tool to try and control people. I recall her pulling this with Ned and ruining it too by pulling a 180 and letting shit slip that she is still nasty.

[Koi No Yokan]

So basically she's nicer but still stupid, emotional and crazy.

I wish they had kept they had made her smarter and kept the vicious.

The viciousness will come.

[Red Tiger]

Cersei less vicious? Remember how bitingly vindictive and petty she was at Joffrey's wedding feast.

If you don't Pycelle, Brienne and Sansa can remind you. Cersei was smiling gleefully during the dwarf play.

[Bilbo Baggins]

The show is going a great job of making certain characters more morally ambiguous without losing their bite.

Tywin, while never evil, is much livlier in the show. The help of seeing him outside of a Tyrion POV is good, because he's much less miserable. Charles Dance is also the fucking man, so that helps. And Cersei is a lot more... soft in the show, for want of a better word. To be analogous, book Cersei would get you in her bed and sleep with you. Then bury a knife in your gut very angrily. Show Cersei would playfully seduce you, never revealing more than she needs to, gaining your trust and making you dance to her tune, then slowly slide a blade beneath your ribs. This will change, I have no doubt, but for now I am loving it.

[Red Tiger]

The show is going a great job of making certain characters more morally ambiguous without losing their bite.

Tywin, while never evil, is much livlier in the show. The help of seeing him outside of a Tyrion POV is good, because he's much less miserable. Charles Dance is also the fucking man, so that helps. And Cersei is a lot more... soft in the show, for want of a better word. To be analogous, book Cersei would get you in her bed and sleep with you. Then bury a knife in your gut very angrily. Show Cersei would playfully seduce you, never revealing more than she needs to, gaining your trust and making you dance to her tune, then slowly slide a blade beneath your ribs. This will change, I have no doubt, but for now I am loving it.

Agreed, I think people are making too many assumptions with this "whitewashing" nonsense. Cersei has shown plenty of pettiness, hypocrisy and signs of being a truly loathsome being (again, Witness her smiling at Joffrey's play). She might still end up causing all types of hell in the future, maybe by destroying the Lannister/Tyrell alliance.