[Book spoilers] "The Iron Bank is like a temple"

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

Isnt there a moment in the book when Arya wonders where all the possessions of those who die in the temple are stored? Money and all.

could that not be an income to the bank?

very well could be...but FM seem to devout in their beliefs to simply "recycle" dead men's possessions...but i could be missing their practicality :dunno:

[Tixu Oty]

Did anyone else get the significance of this and what implications might come from it?

The Iron Bank is like a temple...the House of Black and White is the Temple of the Many Faced God...where the Faceless Men train. Connection between the two confirmed? Maybe...or am I overthinking it.

I understood it the same way. To me it sounded like a hidden confirmation that the Iron Bank and the House of Black and White aka the Faceless Men are connected in some way. There's nothing wrong with reading between the lines. Although I must say that whole part of the dialogue sounded too much. What with this comprised of people / comprised of stones thing??? It sounds so wrong you could almost say the writer was desperately trying to find a way to brink up the temple analogy. ;)

[Tixu Oty]

I have always operated under the premise the Iron Bank and the temple of black and white were the same. I thought this was fairly heavily implied.

I agree with you.

I think they meant to say that they are martial, obedient and diligent to their work.

Wow, you're right and you know, that does sound a lot like the way the Faceless Men operate. Tywin is implying the people at the Iron Bank are not corruptible almost like they have no individuality that comes into play. Yeah this stone metaphor is definitely a hidden allusion to the Faceless Men, I'm totally convinced now.

If Tywin had simply used a metaphor relating to a castle, or a house, or any other building I wouldn't have thought otherwise, but using a temple is a very specific, and strange, metaphor.

Yes, it seemed deliberate on the writer's part. A bit clumsy, but deliberate.

Isnt there a moment in the book when Arya wonders where all the possessions of those who die in the temple are stored? Money and all.

could that not be an income to the bank?

Well if you're looking for a financial connection the real question would be: since buying the service of the Faceless Men is so expensive, what do they do with all the money people are paying them? Surely not everyone is paying with their own life/their daughter's life. Rich people gotta be paying in actual money.

[ovis alba]

I saw it more as something connected to Cersei in the future.

Because she clearly turns down one temple (Iron Bank) and rather sides with a different one (Faith Militant) thereby basically ignoring what Tywin taught her here.

[boojam]

Jaqen as a FM worships the many-faced God, but he owes The Red God 3 deaths...because 3 men were saved from fire that day, and presumably the Red God (Rh'llor perhaps?) is responsible for deaths by fire.

From what we find out in Arya's time at the House of Black and White is that the FM don't worship the Many Faced God as much as honor him.

Which is god happens to need his due that day he's the one.

Just happened to be the Red God (not clear if that's Rh'llor or not), it could have been the Drowned God if Arya had of saved them from being submerged.

Actually , seems to me, when George was writing CoK he had really not worked out all of the FM's operating philosophy...'cause things seem more complex in Braavos at the HoBW when one gets down to details.

[Cubarey]

"As to Tywin's metaphor in the show: That was just stupid. A bank is a bank. It's a business enterprise. The guys working at the Iron Bank are cannot be all competent just because they work for the Iron Bank. If Tywin could replace an competent CEO with an incompetent CEO, the Iron Bank would not just operate as efficiently as before. It would make some sense for Tywin to be afraid if he knew of/suspected that there were connections between the Iron Bank and the Faceless Men. But he does not do this."

Think you are missing the point. Te Metaphor of the "Bank" as a "temple" is meant to emphisize it's institutional nature. Institutions do not get scared and do not care about good or bad times. The Bank has lent money and expects to get paid back, if it does not, it does not, forget, forgive or give rainchecks it acts in whatever manner it believes will get its money back. If this king is unable to repay back the loan then maybe another king will try harder. It sets up the rationale forwhy the Bank would finance Stannis; not because he is the lawful claiment but because he will pay the debt back one way or anotther.

And the metaphor is not strange or out of place. As the Bank is the only other instituion outside of Temples that are timeless in their universe. Kings, dynasties, powerful families come and go but Temples (the Gods) and the Iron Bank are eternal.

[Tixu Oty]

Even if we're right that there's a clue behind the temple metaphor, it doesn't mean that Tywin is dropping us a clue, it doesn't mean that Tywin is aware of the connections between the House of Black and White and the Iron Brank of Braavos. In Tywin's mind it clearly means that the Iron Bank is a strong institution that can't be swayed. But it's very possible that in the writer's mind, there was a double meaning, that is a hint at a connection with the Faceless Men. Of course I don't think Tywin would know that.

[ServantOnIce]

Perhaps Arya will receive a mission to go West and deal with those who've yet to pay their debts...

This

[AnotherCrannogman]

Agree. The lannisters owing the iron bank could mean they become FM targets and that makes the two plot lines come together.

[Laniki]

I understood it the same way. To me it sounded like a hidden confirmation that the Iron Bank and the House of Black and White aka the Faceless Men are connected in some way. There's nothing wrong with reading between the lines. Although I must say that whole part of the dialogue sounded too much. What with this comprised of people / comprised of stones thing??? It sounds so wrong you could almost say the writer was desperately trying to find a way to brink up the temple analogy. ;)

The House of Black and White shows no outward appearance of being the training vehicle of the Faceless but is only where people go to find a quick and painless death. From what we’ve seen, the temple is manned with only a few that tend to the needs of the temple and those that seek out their own death. The HoBW shows no outward appearance of being the training school for the Faceless Men. However, when the Faceless gather at the House of Black and White, it appears to be in secret. So, is it well known that the Faceless are from the House of Black and White? How is a Faceless Man contacted? Who brokers the negotiation when the services of a Faceless Man are required? It seems the most likely source of contact and why it is known throughout both Westeros and Essos that the Iron Bank gets its due is because they are the point of contact with the Faceless. The Iron Bank has the resources to set the price and act as the enforcement to secure payment, something the House of Black and White would likely stay far away from. As was mentioned by Tixu Oty, there may be a known association between the House of Black and White and the Iron Bank.

[D_Richard]

That's the connection. You don't pay us, we'll back your enemies, provided they honor your debts, therefore your enemies kill you, if they fail, we'll send a FM to get the job done. Either way, you don't pay us, well valar morghulis as we say in Braavos lol

Love it!

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

Perhaps Arya will receive a mission to go West and deal with those who've yet to pay their debts...

i did not consider that...truthfully, i love watching Arya learn the arts of the FM, sooooo curious to see more that i never thought about her return to KL...

but i love this idea! completing IB's hit out on Cersei, plus being the first name crossed off her list with her own hands :cheers:

[Tixu Oty]

The House of Black and White shows no outward appearance of being the training vehicle of the Faceless but is only where people go to find a quick and painless death. From what we’ve seen, the temple is manned with only a few that tend to the needs of the temple and those that seek out their own death. The HoBW shows no outward appearance of being the training school for the Faceless Men. However, when the Faceless gather at the House of Black and White, it appears to be in secret. So, is it well known that the Faceless are from the House of Black and White? How is a Faceless Man contacted? Who brokers the negotiation when the services of a Faceless Man are required? It seems the most likely source of contact and why it is known throughout both Westeros and Essos that the Iron Bank gets its due is because they are the point of contact with the Faceless. The Iron Bank has the resources to set the price and act as the enforcement to secure payment, something the House of Black and White would likely stay far away from. As was mentioned by Tixu Oty, there may be a known association between the House of Black and White and the Iron Bank.

Actually I don't believe the connection, if it does exist, would be known to people at least not outside of Braavos. I took Tywin's metaphor more as a wink wink from the writer.

I don't think people who want to hire the Faceless Men do so through the Iron Bank either.

And to answer your question, yes, it is well known that the House of Black and White is the Faceless Men's headquarters, at least in Braavos, and at least well known enough that the sailor who takes Arya there knows to direct her to the temple. This coming from guys who were also very eager to let her learn all their names and give her gifts. So the sailors definitely knew that iron coin + valar morghulis = faceless men = house of black and white. At least that's how I took it.

However, I'm not sure how people would know how to hire a Faceless Men, but I assume it's not all that important. My guess: you may have to go to Braavos and know someone who knows someone...

[boojam]

The House of Black and White shows no outward appearance of being the training vehicle of the Faceless but is only where people go to find a quick and painless death. From what we’ve seen, the temple is manned with only a few that tend to the needs of the temple and those that seek out their own death. The HoBW shows no outward appearance of being the training school for the Faceless Men. However, when the Faceless gather at the House of Black and White, it appears to be in secret. So, is it well known that the Faceless are from the House of Black and White? How is a Faceless Man contacted? Who brokers the negotiation when the services of a Faceless Man are required? It seems the most likely source of contact and why it is known throughout both Westeros and Essos that the Iron Bank gets its due is because they are the point of contact with the Faceless. The Iron Bank has the resources to set the price and act as the enforcement to secure payment, something the House of Black and White would likely stay far away from. As was mentioned by Tixu Oty, there may be a known association between the House of Black and White and the Iron Bank.

One thing about it citizens of Braavos are infinitely respectful or deathly afraid of the House of Black and White.

Think of the captain of the Titan's Daughter when Arya shows him Jaqen's coin.

No if ands or buts! He and his crew are as friendly to her as their pet dog, if they had a pet dog!

Then in Ugly Little Girl.

Consider this from A Dance with Dragons:

Ugly Little Girl, Arya slips a House of Black and White coin in a man's purse:

"The kindly man understood. "And with that coin and the others in his pursse, he paid a certain man. Soon after that man's heart gave out. Is that the way of it? Very sad?" The priest picked up the coin* and tossed it into the pool. "You have much and more to learn, but it may be you are not hopeless."

"That night they gave her back the face of Arya Stark.'

-George R.R. Martin

*The coin that went into the pool was a golden dragon of Westeros.

A coin from the House of Black and White went to the man , who is the 'hit', who has a heart attack.

By the way there is NOTHING but NOTHING mentioned, before , during or after, about that coin being poisoned.

At least I can't find it.

It was the sight of coin and the thought of being fingered by the FM that killed Mr. Insurance Man.

Arya got an acolytes robe for that.

Pretty clever!

"I am not in danger, Skyler. I am the danger! A guy opens his door and gets shot and you think that of me? No. I am the one who knocks!"

BRYAN CRANSTON as Walter White [secret Faceless Man :)]

[Fat Trell]

One thing about it citizens of Braavos are infinitely respectful or deathly afraid of the House of Black and White.

Think of the captain of the Titan's Daughter when Arya shows him Jaqen's coin.

No if ands or buts! He and his crew are as friendly to her as their pet dog, if they had a pet dog!

Then in Ugly Little Girl.

Consider this from A Dance with Dragons:

Ugly Little Girl, Arya slips a House of Black and White coin in a man's purse:

"The kindly man understood. "And with that coin and the others in his pursse, he paid a certain man. Soon after that man's heart gave out. Is that the way of it? Very said?" The priest picked up the coin* and tossed it into the pool. "You have much and more to learn, but it may be you are not hopeless."

"That night they gave her back the face of Arya Stark.'

-George R.R. Martin

*The coin that went into the pool was a golden dragon of Westeros.

A coin from the House of Black and White went to the man , who is the 'hit', who has a heart attack.

By the way there is NOTHING but NOTHING mentioned, before , during or after, about that coin being poisoned.

At least I can't find it.

It was the sight of coin and the thought of being fingered by the FM that killed Mr. Insurance Man.

Arya got an acolytes robe for that.

Pretty clever!

"I am not in danger, Skyler. I am the danger! A guy opens his door and gets shot and you think that of me? No. I am the one who knocks!"

BRYAN CRANSTON as Walter White [secret Faceless Man :)]

This is nonsense. The coin was poisoned.

[boojam]

This is nonsense. The coin was poisoned.

Can you cite the page and passage where that is said?

[clawson24]

I found the analogy a bit odd. It seemed like an overly involved and elaborate way of making it clear that the Iron Bank is not a good organization to screw over.

[Tixu Oty]

Can you cite the page and passage where that is said?

The exact way of killing the insurance man is never detailed. However, there are plenty of reason to assume he was indeed poisoned. Lots of emphasis on how the insurance man always bites the coins. Plus we know Arya learned about poisons in a previous chapter. It seems like the logical conclusion.

The heart attack option though doesn't sound that good. First, it is never said that the insurance man has a weak heart, merely that he's 50 something. Betting on a heart attack is definitely not a sure fire way to ensure someone is dead. Arya would be a fool if she had gone through all that trouble for such an uncertain result, and so the kindly man surely would not be telling her that she may not be hopeless.

[boojam]

The exact way of killing the insurance man is never detailed. However, there are plenty of reason to assume he was indeed poisoned. Lots of emphasis on how the insurance man always bites the coins. Plus we know Arya learned about poisons in a previous chapter. It seems like the logical conclusion.

The heart attack option though doesn't sound that good. First, it is never said that the insurance man has a weak heart, merely that he's 50 something. Betting on a heart attack is definitely not a sure fire way to ensure someone is dead. Arya would be a fool if she had gone through all that trouble for such an uncertain result, and so the kindly man surely would not be telling her that she may not be hopeless.

In this case:

Absence of evidence ... is evidence of absence.

George has established the reputation of the House of Black and White in Braavos.

Arya assesses the insurance man is elderly.

Arya does the simplest thing, she surprises him with the Faceless Men's 'calling card'.

He panics and has a heart attack.

Kindly man: " Soon after that man's heart gave out. Is that the way of it? Very sad?"

As dramatic narrative this is more subtle and very elegant.

Subtle ingenuity is highly prised by the FM , which is the main point in this chapter.

Arya proves herself to be creatively cunning.

Numquam ponenda est pluralitas sine necessitate.

Plurality must never be posited without necessity.

Occam's razor

[salmonsnake]

Unless you're coming up with a formula or measuring something, Occam's razor isn't very useful for understanding anything. Least of all fiction. I do hope people would stop deploying it like it's a truth rather than a specific principle for a specific methodology for a specific practice.