[Book Spoilers] True Utility of Craster's Keep Arc

[A Raven]

I know there is a thread already on Craster's as filler, but I wanted to tie it into some bigger threads that are not covered there, and probably would be lost in the 7+ pages of post already there (as it's degenerated currently into the efficacy of Valyrian steel against bone).

At first glance, the Craster's Keep arc feels like filler. It feels like bad writing, something glommed together perhaps to tug on heartstrings with another Stark faux-reunion. But bear in mind that there are a number of other things omitted from the books that have had readers feeling that there will be problems in the future. I wanted to write out a list of some of the things that are addressed with this arc, and what was expended to take care of them here, and how fine of a job the writers managed to do in order to clean it up as neatly as it was done. In no particular order:

• Explore the Great White North

  The show writers want to remind the viewers that the Others-beyond-the-wall are an important and major threat. There is much more exposition in the book about them, and the format itself means that they are very likely to be in the readers' mind even when they are not mentioned. For show viewers, they were seen in the first episode. Next, they are seen with Craster's child in season 2, and closing off the season at the Fist of the First Men. After that, Sam kills one in season 3. That's it. Viewers have much more reason to fear the wights than the Others, as other than killing the first disposable characters the viewers meet in the first episode, they steal a baby and get killed by a fat coward (as he is presented to viewers! Don't worry, Sam's cool...), and nothing else. As such, the viewers need both to be reminded of their existence AND be convinced of the severity of their threat. Using Craster's last son provides this opportunity.

• Bring Ghost back to Jon

  Ghost went missing in the first half of Season 3. Perhaps viewers largely forgot about him, but they needed a way to bring him back to Jon without having him randomly show up at the northern gate of Castle Black or scale the Wall by himself.

• Delay wildling attack on the Wall

  They've moved around some of the occurrences surrounding the battle at the Wall, but both with Stannis going to Braavos and Jon's early return, as well as his being judged by Janos Slynt and Alliser Thorne prior to the attack from the south. Most likely, the battle itself will be condensed, the attack from the front will coincide with the attack from the south, and while the Night's Watch will defeat the Thenns + Tormund, Stannis will show up just in time to break the main wildling attack from the north. To accomplish this, there needed to be action in Jon Snow's story that can at least be claimed to delay the attack, as without the mutineers, apparently Mance cannot learn that the Night's Watch is weak. I do not recall if in the show they mentioned Mance coming to Winterfell to see King Robert in the flesh, but if they haven't, I doubt they will because he obviously would have determined the state of the Night's Watch's strength at that point.

• Jon's knowledge of Bran's survival

  They get to have Sam both to be a loyal friend to Jon rather than hold to vows and words. This will lead more easily to a sexual relationship with Gilly and his eventual rescue of her and child from Moletown. Having Jon get the catharsis of cleaning out Craster's Keep, after it has been identified as the one possible location for Bran to have stopped by that they might find him, means that he can set that to rest for the moment. Or, they could recycle it later and omit the Hardhome ranging in favor of Jon using his power as eventual Lord Commander to organize a ranging to "rescue" Bran.

• Appease modern feminists

  There's been a lot of rape and removal of women's agency recently. Having a Crasterwife save Jon, then them strike off on their own direction (perhaps they could combine the elder Crasterwife with Mother Mole if they DO want to have Hardhome happen later?) will do much to pay lipservice to feminism.

• Justify Jon's reputation with Night's Watch rank and file

  The viewers have ample reason to root for Jon Snow. Most of the Night's Watch would only know him as a bastard born of traitor's stock who was resentful of his appointment as Mormont's steward, his preferential treatment in being able to range with Qhorin Halfhand, and then joining the wildlings after killing the Halfhand, who was revered. Then he comes back full of arrows, and pronounces his oathbreaking. A successful return from the difficult sortie to Craster's Keep will justify his reputation in their eyes and undermine Thorne's position when it comes time to elect a new Lord Commander. This is done quietly without much exploration of Night's Watch politics, as the show has less time to devote to that.

• Increase the Crannogmen's importance without storytelling

  Meera is severely undermined in this arc, as viewers cannot take her seriously as a huntress. She was surprised by the mutineers, and the next episode they were slaughtered like drunken pigs. So the tradeoff was to make them more mystic by showing Jojenvision to the audience. Jojenvision becomes the necessary guide for Bran. Meera, however, is presently superfluous. She will prove essential in a few episodes, but she has to climb back of the uselessness hole the writers put her into. It is also very unlikely that the Reeds will tell the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, but if they do, it will be because they traded Meera's worldly know-how for making her a keeper of lore.

• Direct Bran north in a very specific way without Coldhands

  Jojenvision shows them the way North, which will be expedited and finish by the end of the season, sans Coldhands. Incidentally, it alludes to Jojen's potential death when Bran gets north.

• Set up a causus belli for the Boltons against Jon Snow without Farya

  The Bastard of Bolton has less exploration in the show than in the books, despite being explored earlier. And it looks like the Winterfell marriage arc is unlikely to happen as written - they can dodge the necessity of it by setting up a conflict between the Boltons and Jon Snow; how will Roose react when Locke does not return and Jon Snow becomes Lord Commander of the Night's Watch? He will clearly view him as an enemy even prior to (or without) the conflicts in the book when he's mucking about in Northern affairs by supporting Stannis and playing matchmaker/King in the North by interfering with the Karstark family, something that legally is the responsibility and privilege of the Warden of the North, Roose Bolton.

• Clean itself up

  Mutineers were introduced and removed. Locke was continued and removed. With the literal burning of the keep, the extra elements added in are cleaned up while the story has been springboarded along.

It's hard to say for certain if it was worthwhile, but there's absolutely an argument to be made for the expediency of storytelling, and it provided more flexibility than shows up at first blush in terms of future events for the series.

[Adhara]

Bump.

Very neat and tidy.

I like.

[WinterisAlwaysComing]

I agree. I liked the extra Craster info. Only book purists seem to hate it. I haven't heard any non-book readers who had a problem with it.

Also, I find it ironic that people complain Craster's is filler wasting precious screen time, while also complaining that show-only characters Karl and Locke were killed in the very same "filler" event.

Otherwise, we'd have Bran boringly talking to trees and warging his way north forever.

[Dorne Sand]

I know there is a thread already on Craster's as filler, but I wanted to tie it into some bigger threads that are not covered there, and probably would be lost in the 7+ pages of post already there (as it's degenerated currently into the efficacy of Valyrian steel against bone).

At first glance, the Craster's Keep arc feels like filler. It feels like bad writing, something glommed together perhaps to tug on heartstrings with another Stark faux-reunion.

• Explore the Great White North

  The show writers want to remind the viewers that the Others-beyond-the-wall are an important and major threat. There is much more exposition in the book about them, and the format itself means that they are very likely to be in the readers' mind even when they are not mentioned. For show viewers, they were seen in the first episode. Next, they are seen with Craster's child in season 2, and closing off the season at the Fist of the First Men. After that, Sam kills one in season 3. That's it. Viewers have much more reason to fear the wights than the Others, as other than killing the first disposable characters the viewers meet in the first episode, they steal a baby and get killed by a fat coward (as he is presented to viewers! Don't worry, Sam's cool...), and nothing else. As such, the viewers need both to be reminded of their existence AND be convinced of the severity of their threat. Using Craster's last son provides this opportunity.

• Bring Ghost back to Jon

  Ghost went missing in the first half of Season 3. Perhaps viewers largely forgot about him, but they needed a way to bring him back to Jon without having him randomly show up at the northern gate of Castle Black or scale the Wall by himself.

• Delay wildling attack on the Wall

  They've moved around some of the occurrences surrounding the battle at the Wall, but both with Stannis going to Braavos and Jon's early return, as well as his being judged by Janos Slynt and Alliser Thorne prior to the attack from the south. Most likely, the battle itself will be condensed, the attack from the front will coincide with the attack from the south, and while the Night's Watch will defeat the Thenns + Tormund, Stannis will show up just in time to break the main wildling attack from the north. To accomplish this, there needed to be action in Jon Snow's story that can at least be claimed to delay the attack, as without the mutineers, apparently Mance cannot learn that the Night's Watch is weak. I do not recall if in the show they mentioned Mance coming to Winterfell to see King Robert in the flesh, but if they haven't, I doubt they will because he obviously would have determined the state of the Night's Watch's strength at that point.

• Jon's knowledge of Bran's survival

  They get to have Sam both to be a loyal friend to Jon rather than hold to vows and words. This will lead more easily to a sexual relationship with Gilly and his eventual rescue of her and child from Moletown. Having Jon get the catharsis of cleaning out Craster's Keep, after it has been identified as the one possible location for Bran to have stopped by that they might find him, means that he can set that to rest for the moment. Or, they could recycle it later and omit the Hardhome ranging in favor of Jon using his power as eventual Lord Commander to organize a ranging to "rescue" Bran.

• Appease modern feminists

  There's been a lot of rape and removal of women's agency recently. Having a Crasterwife save Jon, then them strike off on their own direction (perhaps they could combine the elder Crasterwife with Mother Mole if they DO want to have Hardhome happen later?) will do much to pay lipservice to feminism.

• Justify Jon's reputation with Night's Watch rank and file

  The viewers have ample reason to root for Jon Snow. Most of the Night's Watch would only know him as a bastard born of traitor's stock who was resentful of his appointment as Mormont's steward, his preferential treatment in being able to range with Qhorin Halfhand, and then joining the wildlings after killing the Halfhand, who was revered. Then he comes back full of arrows, and pronounces his oathbreaking. A successful return from the difficult sortie to Craster's Keep will justify his reputation in their eyes and undermine Thorne's position when it comes time to elect a new Lord Commander. This is done quietly without much exploration of Night's Watch politics, as the show has less time to devote to that.

• Increase the Crannogmen's importance without storytelling

  Meera is severely undermined in this arc, as viewers cannot take her seriously as a huntress. She was surprised by the mutineers, and the next episode they were slaughtered like drunken pigs. So the tradeoff was to make them more mystic by showing Jojenvision to the audience. Jojenvision becomes the necessary guide for Bran. Meera, however, is presently superfluous. She will prove essential in a few episodes, but she has to climb back of the uselessness hole the writers put her into. It is also very unlikely that the Reeds will tell the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, but if they do, it will be because they traded Meera's worldly know-how for making her a keeper of lore.

• Direct Bran north in a very specific way without Coldhands

  Jojenvision shows them the way North, which will be expedited and finish by the end of the season, sans Coldhands. Incidentally, it alludes to Jojen's potential death when Bran gets north.

• Set up a causus belli for the Boltons against Jon Snow without Farya

  The Bastard of Bolton has less exploration in the show than in the books, despite being explored earlier. And it looks like the Winterfell marriage arc is unlikely to happen as written - they can dodge the necessity of it by setting up a conflict between the Boltons and Jon Snow; how will Roose react when Locke does not return and Jon Snow becomes Lord Commander of the Night's Watch? He will clearly view him as an enemy even prior to (or without) the conflicts in the book when he's mucking about in Northern affairs by supporting Stannis and playing matchmaker/King in the North by interfering with the Karstark family, something that legally is the responsibility and privilege of the Warden of the North, Roose Bolton.

• Clean itself up

  Mutineers were introduced and removed. Locke was continued and removed. With the literal burning of the keep, the extra elements added in are cleaned up while the story has been springboarded along.

It's hard to say for certain if it was worthwhile, but there's absolutely an argument to be made for the expediency of storytelling, and it provided more flexibility than shows up at first blush in terms of future events for the series.

1. It could have been done with bran arc with other changes

2. could have been done otherwise, with john send to oversee battle preparation on the other side of the wall. use the time to mark how much he misses him

3. why changing the time frame? the way it is written provides ample material (battle, villages in danger and the need to pull back villagers, even some thorne vs john more politics, dialogue with aemon, sam and Other research)

4. Well jon's arc is beautiful in the back without that knowledge. We can imagine many stories and arcs where he doesn't need to know

5. this one is funny as they didn't even have to poke at feminist the way they did in the first place...and after all the whoring and raping that has been done in the first seaon i think they don't give a damn about feminists

6. stick to the original will have done the same. Make it a figth over what should be done with the villagers south of the wall and an opposition between thorne and jon, make it about the cleverness of the preparation of the battle to come against the thens, about the obligation of training even the builders an stewards, make it about and young and rebelious jon vs a hatefull and straigthforward thorne. Make it about jon redeeming himself from his oathbreaking and put his efforts to the ground with a pompous arrival of janos slynt

7. they just managed the contrary as you state it very well for meera. even jojen is diminished but for his moment against the mutineers where he is the true guide not just a simple reminder of bran's own vision

8. jojen abilities in bran arc should have been enougth

9. I'am ok with introducing locke for this purpose but create a full sum zero arc ? surely there was another way

For this arc to exist they had to propose a scenario where jon think of a very stupid reason to go north of the wall motivated by a major info he doesn't have compared to the book which allisters agrees to, when they obviously lack the men to handle the wildlings coming and let him have enougth men where is plan is to get him killed. They made an impropable scenario of a chained ghost a trap for summer and bran meera jojen captured when they have a greenseer with them, at the exact same time of the attack of jon on the mutineers.

even if they needed what you have listed (and there are some very valid points just ike the jon/bolton tension), they botched it in my opinion. It is not about the changes or the additionnal arc. Is it about how he is brougth to the screen the plots that motivate it, its realism. The lack of emotions of jon knowing about bran info which is brougth off screen!, the absence of gost in any interaction of jon at the wall. he could have mentionned it to sam that he missed him no?

Since joffrey death, nothing happens really much in kings landing. But we get to see new interactions and dialogues even a bit twisted. and it is interesting and funny. I think that the same could have been done at the wall. and if you need some action for bran, gods they are wildlings, undead, others there even some rogue NW, surely there was something else to do rigth if you felt compelled to add some action? but why adding some action at all? Yes his trip is boring but kind of peotic also to watch him going to his doom in this oppressive and dangerous north. then you'll tell me that it doesn't work on screen. Tell peter jackson who has to screen the whole frodon trip which is one of the most boring until they arrive in mordor

[David Selig]

How exactly did showing a few more pointless rape scenes and naked breasts was really appeasing to feminists. Because at the end the women made the idiotic choice to burn the keep and (supposedly) all the supplies there and somehow survive in the wilderness with the Others and Mance's army coming? This doesn't make sense.

[Darryk]

Agree with all the reasons given.

On a character and story development level, it strengthened Jon's leadership position, fleshed out Bran and Jojen's relationship and showed Bran's strengthening resolve.

On an entertainment level we got a great performance form Burn Gorman, a cool sword-fighting sequence, and Hodor breaking a guy's neck.

And it brought Jon and Ghost back together, which is always a good thing.

Also, since GRRM keeps going on about how the show runners sometimes kill off characters who aren't dead in the books, it was the first time in awhile that I've genuinely feared for characters; wasn't entirely sure Meera was going to survive the captivity. (I knew they wouldn't kill off any of the others yet)

[AzorAhai42]

I agree with almost everything you said, but I think you're holding Jojenvision in too high of a regard. It was established in episode 2 that Bran can use the Weirwoods to inform him of his next move.

[ViennaGirl]

How exactly did showing a few more pointless rape scenes and naked breasts was really appeasing to feminists. Because at the end the women made the idiotic choice to burn the keep and (supposedly) all the supplies there and somehow survive in the wilderness with the Others and Mance's army coming? This doesn't make sense.

Sigh. Yes, this.

Also, "paying lipservice to modern feminists?" (from the original post) Paying lipservice means that you don't really mean it - you're just checking a box. I don't think that would be HBO's goal. They'd either want to actually acknowledge a feminist viewpoint (which they often do in this show, because the source material is arguably fairly feminist) or not, but I don't think anyone would have the goal of paying lipservice to feminism.

[Chebyshov]

Well put, OP. Two things though:

3. You're 100% right here, but I think this is the biggest misstep of the producers. They wanted an episode 9 battle, but they're using a battle that I just don't think fits that role so well. So while I don't really have an issue with the Craster's arc, I do have an issue with Jon's post-battle chapters being slopped together in one episode.

5. I raise you a Crasterwife stabbing Karl with the most problematic depiction of rape yet.

[Fat Trell]

I like all the pieces in this arc. I just don't like how they were arranged. It heavy-handedly solved the Jon competence problem, which was very much a show creation.

I don't understand the point of filler that is solved so quickly. If the goal is to kill time, why not have the mutineers stick around as a plot device? Why kill off Locke before he has any real impact on Jon or his storyline?

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

I agree. I liked the extra Craster info. Only book purists seem to hate it. I haven't heard any non-book readers who had a problem with it.

Also, I find it ironic that people complain Craster's is filler wasting precious screen time, while also complaining that show-only characters Karl and Locke were killed in the very same "filler" event.

Otherwise, we'd have Bran boringly talking to trees and warging his way north forever.

truer than you know...some unsullied i know who hated Oathkeeper, absolutely LOVED this ep, specifically for Caster's...hey D&D need a wider focus group than just book readers and they clearly know how to keep things lively to attract everyone...i have mixed feelings about the scene but by no means did i hate it... i agree with the person who started this thread on most of the points...

if they showed Jon and Bran meeting, then i would have been right along everyone else screaming for D&D's heads, that would have been tooooo much...

as it stands, IMO no really significant change...and no one can deny the scene was entertaining (HODOR, warging, jojen hand fire, jon's fighting, karl's epic dialogues and so forth)...it was good TV which is good enough for me

[Envie]

Sigh. Yes, this.

Also, "paying lipservice to modern feminists?" (from the original post) Paying lipservice means that you don't really mean it - you're just checking a box. I don't think that would be HBO's goal. They'd either want to actually acknowledge a feminist viewpoint (which they often do in this show, because the source material is arguably fairly feminist) or not, but I don't think anyone would have the goal of paying lipservice to feminism.

Yeah lets please not take the conversation in a 'feminist' argument direction. As a female who enjoys the books and the show very much and has absolutely no problem with the presence of 'whores' and nudity / sex scenes in the show - I don't really want to hear the term "lip service" being flung out there casually when as pointed out - there are tons of great feminine role models in the story defying the odds stacked against females in this harshly male dominated fantasy world. Arya Stark, Daenarys Targaryen, Asha Greyjoy, Brienne of Tarth and yes, even Sansa Stark or Cersei Lannister / Margaery Tyrell could be argued as great female icons for their ability to play the 'game of thrones' in the limited capacity they've been given it.

That being said, I think I understand the original intentions meant by the remark. As the writers pointed out in the 'inside the episode' video - there's powerful symbolism in having the women of Craster's Keep watch it burn to the ground and survive / triumph over 'evil' even if they're now faced with even greater perils ahead on their own. It was symbolism for Jon Snow's leadership and what he stands for as well.

That one 'feminist lips service' remark sticking point aside, I feel the OP list is well thought out and on point with valid arguments as to why the Craster's Keep story arc was useful for the show and not just pointless filler. While I still think it was done as filler to stretch out Bran's story longer (face it, there really just wasn't much for Bran to do this entire book / season other than trudge through snow and ice north of the wall) ... there's a lot more that was definitely accomplished by creating the extra characters and scenes.

Because I felt the scenes were well done - great acting and action - it wasn't pointless. It was enjoyable and added to the value of the show over the books at a point in the books where things were stalling for those characters.

[Lord Spark of House Spark]

"Climb back out of the uselessness hole"

Love that phrase :rofl:

[Harry Lime]

Also, it's a big character moment for Bran. He doesn't just narrowly miss Jon like at Queenscrown (which so many people are comparing it to). He chooses not to go to Jon. He's fully committed to his quest now.

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

Also, it's a big character moment for Bran. He doesn't just narrowly miss Jon like at Queenscrown (which so many people are comparing it to). He chooses not to go to Jon. He's fully committed to his quest now.

:agree:

people who were upset after Oathkeeper that Jon's gona miss out on his big character moment with Stannis...well this is a big character moment for Bran...appearing to choose the good of the realm over himself and his family...

IMO, show!Bran's reasons are better than book!Bran's reasons...books he was just a kid hoping to walk again, looking for a miracle and jojen was just helping him do whatever he wanted...show, they haven't really explained his motivations so it seems like he's going to learn to be a more powerful warg and jojen's comments are making it seem like he's the last hope, that without his warging abilities, everyone is doomed..i like it!

[MrsManderly]

Great post - I'm (almost) persuaded!

On OP's item 9: I don't think this plot is to needed for a JS/Bolton animosity since I'm pretty sure they will be bringing Farya into the show. The talk earlier in the season between Brienne and Jaime and, more to the point, between Roos and Ramsay, about Arya being presumed dead and a Stark being needed to legitimise the claim to Winterfell hints heavily towards that + to lose Farya would detract fundamentally from Reek's arc and possibly have other implications on the story in TWOW

She may not be Jayne Pool but I think we will be getting Farya - early next season I would guess

[Hard Hugh]

Also, it's a big character moment for Bran. He doesn't just narrowly miss Jon like at Queenscrown (which so many people are comparing it to). He chooses not to go to Jon. He's fully committed to his quest now.

I thought this was very significant as well. he made an active choice to see this through all the way. he could have been a kid again (on some level) could have had someone else take away the responsibility and decsions....but he chose to see it through alone to the end. A lot of courage and character shown here.

[littleRickon]

I think you missed one:

show that Brans warging of Hodor is problematic, and that Bran isn't just on a path into pure light and goodness.

We had the first instance of Brodoring in the Queenscrown episode, where it was a surprise pretty much for Bran as well, and where it gets painted as an achievement that very few wargs can do. In the books we have more exposition to the severity of the situation, of how Bran kind of not thinks very much about it, but if you look carefully, you can still see how he is basically violating another person for not much more than killing boredom and exploring caves. I thought how the show depicted the killing of Locke and Hodor's obvious shock and disgust was very strong in that department.

edit: epic typo

[ViennaGirl]

I think you missed one:

show that Brans warging of Hodor is problematic, and that Bean isn't just on a path into pure light and goodness.

We had the first instance of Brodoring in the Queenscrown episode, where it was a surprise pretty much for Bran as well, and where it gets painted as an achievement that very few wargs can do. In the books we have more exposition to the severity of the situation, of how Bran kind of not thinks very much about it, but if you look carefully, you can still see how he is basically violating another person for not much more than killing boredom and exploring caves. I thought how the show depicted the killing of Locke and Hodor's obvious shock and disgust was very strong in that department.

Definitely true. What he did to Hodor was very problematic and violative of Hodor's agency. Of course, it probably saved everyone's life, but it's a great moment of darkness for Bran.

[Chebyshov]

Definitely true. What he did to Hodor was very problematic and violative of Hodor's agency. Of course, it probably saved everyone's life, but it's a great moment of darkness for Bran.

I think it was one of the best ways to showcase the inherently problematic ways of Bran doing this, which we learn in the book. Taking a life was obviously a darker twist, but Locke seemed like enough of a threat to warrant it.

The big stableboy no longer fought him as he had the first time, back in the lake tower during the storm. Like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him, Hodor would curl up and hide whenever Bran reached out for him. His hiding place was somewhere deep within him, a pit where not even Bran could touch him. No one wants to hurt you, Hodor, he said silently, to the child-man whose flesh he’d taken. I just want to be strong again for a while. I’ll give it back, the way I always do.