Please Don't Come into my Castle: The Fortresses of the Seven Kingdom

[Lord Reaver]

@ Khaleesi: Mind referring the chapter where Theon states how many the Bolton host is ? Just had a cursory read of his chapters, and while I find number for Stannis' host, I don't see any for the Bolton one other than it being "large", which doesn't really help much.

@Waters Gate: Force multipliers are nice on paper, but real life isn't quite as straight forward. A castle has only so many defensive positions. Having more people around than is needed to man those is simply more mouths to feed, which aren't doing anything useful. Sure, if there's going to be a long siege with attrition, you will need replacements, but then you're also more vulnerable to starvation.

[The Kinkslayer]

Winterfell was built in the middle of nowhere because a tree told Brandon the builder to do so.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

@ Khaleesi: Mind referring the chapter where Theon states how many the Bolton host is ? Just had a cursory read of his chapters, and while I find number for Stannis' host, I don't see any for the Bolton one other than it being "large", which doesn't really help much.

Sure, it's in his TWOW spoiler chapter. I wrote late Dance since by TWOW Bolton has sent out large portions of his forces into the countryside to face Stannis.

I don't know if I am allowed to link to the chapter here since GRRM doesn't have it up on his blog anymore, but its roughly in the middle of it.

[Nittanian]

Here is some info from SSMs:

The Tooth and the Tyroshi

First; did Ser Forley Prester send any part of his 4000 men at the Golden Tooth to Ser Stafford Lannister at Oxcross, in order to augment his host? Or were they all kept at the Tooth by Prester?

That's much too big a garrison for a small castle like the Tooth, so I expect that he sent many of them down to Ser Stafford. Blooded veterans to help train the raw green levies... of course, that didn't work out too well...

A Number of Questions

was Tywin really obligingly marching into Robb's trap when Edmure stopped him at the Red Fork? Did he really count on Lorch and Hoat with their IIRC 300 men holding Harrenhal and the northern prisoners in his absence?

Harrenhal is an immensely strong castle, and a garrison of three hundred is quite sizeable in medieval terms. Ser Amory =should= have been able to hold it. Lord Tywin likely thought that Roose Bolton might descend on the castle and besiege it, in which case Lorch could likely have held out for half a year or longer. The wild card here was Vargo Hoat changing sides.

[Lord Reaver]

Sure, it's in his TWOW spoiler chapter. I wrote late Dance since by TWOW Bolton has sent out large portions of his forces into the countryside to face Stannis.

That would explain it, then. I don't read the spoiler chapters.

[Naathi Prince]

A few seemingly ignored things.

The Eyrie is unimportant when it comes to control of the Vale, but the Gates of the Moon are not. The combination means that the Lord or King of the Vale can stash his wife and kids and valuables in the Eyrie without worrying about them getting snatched. Besides, the topography of the Vale indicates to me that raising large armies there is not really sustainable.

Storm's End's seaside location means that only part of the castle is exposed. I also don't see a spot in the Stormlands that would be better.

Oldtown might not be on the Mander, but it is closer to the Arbor and home to the Citadel, as well as less of a trip for Essosi vessels. In addition, the Mander has traditionally been raided heavily by the Ironborn.

Casterly Rock's placement is perfect.

[E-Ro]

“ Ah, and what a castle it is. Cavernous halls and ruined towers, ghosts and draughts, ruinous to heat, impossible to garrison . . ”

- Petyr Baelish, Lord of Harrenhal

There is no castle in our world that we can compare Harrenhal to. It is epic, in size, it is more like a city castle as opposed to just being a castle, but without thousands of men you cannot hope to defend it, it is too large.

Riverrun is a decent castle, but is compact and does not require many troops to garrison it. This is the only correct statement you made.

Dragonstone has been assaulted twice, and twice it has fallen. 200 men are not enough to garrison this castle, obviously.

Winterfell is huge, and while people boasted that 50 good men could hold off 10,000, those 50 men could not stop 20. a proper garrison is around 2,000 men. It can certainly operate with less, but the skeleton crew they had when Theon arrived was obviously not enough.

Lord Mace Tyrell descended on Storm's End with the Reach's host, while Lord Paxter Redwyne took the Arbor fleet and closed Shipbreaker Bay to all trade, essentially cutting Storm's End off. The siege continued for the better part of a year, with the garrison having to eat their horses, dogs and cats, and were nearly forced to eat their own dead.

The only notable action was the small attempted desertion.

There is nothing in text to suggest there ever was a storming of the castle, it is a given that Mace sat encamped doing nothing for the better part of a year, however he did have the entire power of the Reach and it is suggested that he could have stormed it and taken it, just that it would have been costly.

“ His sigil ought to be a fat man sitting on his arse. ”

- Cersei Lannister's thoughts

Of course you never touched on your other comments that were completely refuted. Just as these have been.

LMFAO. I was going to respond to your nonsense post with logic and reason, but then someone posted these two ssms

First; did Ser Forley Prester send any part of his 4000 men at the Golden Tooth to Ser Stafford Lannister at Oxcross, in order to augment his host? Or were they all kept at the Tooth by Prester?

That's much too big a garrison for a small castle like the Tooth, so I expect that he sent many of them down to Ser Stafford. Blooded veterans to help train the raw green levies... of course, that didn't work out too well...

was Tywin really obligingly marching into Robb's trap when Edmure stopped him at the Red Fork? Did he really count on Lorch and Hoat with their IIRC 300 men holding Harrenhal and the northern prisoners in his absence?

Harrenhal is an immensely strong castle, and a garrison of three hundred is quite sizeable in medieval terms. Ser Amory =should= have been able to hold it. Lord Tywin likely thought that Roose Bolton might descend on the castle and besiege it, in which case Lorch could likely have held out for half a year or longer. The wild card here was Vargo Hoat changing sides.

Thank you Nittanian for providing this.

So Mournblade, my question to you would be how does it feel to be so wrong? Clearly, 300 men is enough to hold Harenhall, as per the authors words. OBVIOUSLY Littlefinger is using HYPERBOLE, do you know what that word means? It means he is exaggerating. And yes, the author is very much correct on this, 300 men is a HUGE garrison.

As for storms end getting stormed, none of what you quoted proves it wasn't. In fact there is no reason at all to assume the tyrells just sat there for a year.

Man, vindication feels amazing.

[Mourneblade]

LMFAO. I was going to respond to your nonsense post with logic and reason, but then someone posted these two ssms

Thank you Nittanian for providing this.

So Mournblade, my question to you would be how does it feel to be so wrong? Clearly, 300 men is enough to hold Harenhall, as per the authors words. OBVIOUSLY Littlefinger is using HYPERBOLE, do you know what that word means? It means he is exaggerating. And yes, the author is very much correct on this, 300 men is a HUGE garrison.

As for storms end getting stormed, none of what you quoted proves it wasn't. In fact there is no reason at all to assume the tyrells just sat there for a year.

Man, vindication feels amazing.

Are you daft? Did Vargo hold Harrenhal with 300 men? No.... it fell.

Using someone elses incorrect supposition to vindicate yourself is akin to asking your friend if its safe to jump off the Golden Gate, him saying yes, and you saying.... see I can jump off.... Vindication.....except the part little itty bitty fact that most people die doing it.

You can put 5 people in a castle but they wont hold it against an army.... but you keep toking that pipe if you want to.

Logic and reason... most of your post lack either lol. They are never lacking in troll crap though Brah.

[TheCrannogDweller]

The Eyrie is unimportant when it comes to control of the Vale, but the Gates of the Moon are not. The combination means that the Lord or King of the Vale can stash his wife and kids and valuables in the Eyrie without worrying about them getting snatched. Besides, the topography of the Vale indicates to me that raising large armies there is not really sustainable.

Are you sure you're not mistaking the Gates of the Moon with the Bloody gate?

Clearly, 300 men is enough to hold Harenhall, as per the authors words. OBVIOUSLY Littlefinger is using HYPERBOLE, do you know what that word means? It means he is exaggerating. And yes, the author is very much correct on this, 300 men is a HUGE garrison.

300 is probably what the skeleton crew for Harrenhall is. When Roose and Robb went to war, they left 600 men each to garrison Winterfell and the Dreadfort. I don't think GRRM is that good with numbers, to be honest. :D

[E-Ro]

Anyway, more on the siege of storms end.

Mace tyrell not ordering at least a few assaults on storms end is incredibly daft because it would have been obvious to EVERYONE involved that he was playing both sides and doing as little as possible just to see who would win. It is nonsensical to think that he just sat his men down and had them twiddle their thumbs for a year. He has more men then any other man in the kingdoms, losing a few is MORE then affordable for him. Especially considering the honor and glory that would have come with taking storms end.

So yeah, chances of storms end not getting stormed are slim to none. Until someone provides something that proves it was not stormed at least once it can be safely assumed that it was in fact stormed.

I mean really, the man that fought and killed a giant lost his arm at the siege. How he would have lost his arm there without any fighting is beyond me.

Are you daft? Did Vargo hold Harrenhal with 300 men? No.... it fell.

Using someone elses incorrect supposition to vindicate yourself is akin to asking your friend if its safe to jump off the Golden Gate, him saying yes, and you saying.... see I can jump off.... except the part little itty bitty fact that most people die doing it.

You can put 5 people in a castle but they wont hold it against an army.... but you keep toking that pipe if you want to.

Logic and reason... most of your post lack either lol. They are never lacking in troll crap though Brah.

I lack logic and reason? You were just completely proven wrong. the fact that your keeping this going just makes you look like a clown. Yet somehow i am the daft one? That was not anyone elses "incorrect supposition" It was grrms, you know, the guy that wrote the series? Here we go, one more time just so you can maybe this time get it.

First; did Ser Forley Prester send any part of his 4000 men at the Golden Tooth to Ser Stafford Lannister at Oxcross, in order to augment his host? Or were they all kept at the Tooth by Prester?

That's much too big a garrison for a small castle like the Tooth, so I expect that he sent many of them down to Ser Stafford. Blooded veterans to help train the raw green levies... of course, that didn't work out too well...

was Tywin really obligingly marching into Robb's trap when Edmure stopped him at the Red Fork? Did he really count on Lorch and Hoat with their IIRC 300 men holding Harrenhal and the northern prisoners in his absence?

Harrenhal is an immensely strong castle, and a garrison of three hundred is quite sizeable in medieval terms. Ser Amory =should= have been able to hold it. Lord Tywin likely thought that Roose Bolton might descend on the castle and besiege it, in which case Lorch could likely have held out for half a year or longer. The wild card here was Vargo Hoat changing sides.

The only reason HH fell was because it was taken by treachery, it did not fall because it was stormed. The people inside flipped sides and freed some prisoners. so yes, HH is easily garrisoned by 300 men. You lose. Better luck next time!

Oh and by the way here are the links to the ssm's

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Tooth_and_the_Tyroshi

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/A_Number_of_Questions1

Like i said, vindication, it feels good.

[E-Ro]

So once more, Harenhall would have held with 300 men if it was stormed or sieged, it fell because of the treachery from the inside.

Yet according to mournblade I am daft.

You cant just say "hruuuur druuur it didnt stand with 300 men it was taken"

Yeah no shit it was taken, but IT WAS NOT TAKEN BY STORM OR SIEGE. Go re read the quotes I just posted from the author himself, and then go re read the books before you start calling people daft brah.

even the author of the books agrees!

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/A_Number_of_Questions1

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Tooth_and_the_Tyroshi

[Naathi Prince]

Are you sure you're not mistaking the Gates of the Moon with the Bloody gate?

Yes, the Bloody Gate guards the Vale, but the Gates of the Moon guard the Eyrie itself.

[Aaron_Targaryen]

The 300 at Harrenhal would have been sufficient because of Harrenhal's defenses. Any attacker would have had to create large siege engines to storm the castle which would have taken a good bit of time. Tywin left it to go fight the Northern army in the field which would have been the force that posed the most threat to Harrenhal so the 300 would have been sufficient from the fact that the majority of the enemy forces would have been busy.

There's no evidence that Storm's End was assaulted or if the Reach army just waited for the defenders to starve. Ned says that Stannis held it for a year starving while Lords Tyrell and Redwyne sat outside with their hosts, banqueting in sight of his walls. They most likely didn't assault Storm's End which is well known to have never been taken by assault.

[Naathi Prince]

I thought it was well known that garrisons were typically small? You don't want a massive garrison...too many mouths.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Yes, the Bloody Gate guards the Vale, but the Gates of the Moon guard the Eyrie itself.

Ok, but apart from being situated at the base of the Lance, isn't the Gates of the Moon just a regular castle? It's a stout keep, but there is nothing formidable about it.

[Mourneblade]

The 300 at Harrenhal would have been sufficient because of Harrenhal's defenses. Any attacker would have had to create large siege engines to storm the castle which would have taken a good bit of time. Tywin left it to go fight the Northern army in the field which would have been the force that posed the most threat to Harrenhal so the 300 would have been sufficient from the fact that the majority of the enemy forces would have been busy.

There's no evidence that Storm's End was assaulted or if the Reach army just waited for the defenders to starve. Ned says that Stannis held it for a year starving while Lords Tyrell and Redwyne sat outside with their hosts, banqueting in sight of his walls. They most likely didn't assault Storm's End which is well known to have never been taken by assault.

As a delaying, or attrition tactic, sure, but it would not have held to an assault. Tywin knows that he can bleed the North and win. If Rooses sieges it, then its 6 months until the defenders starve, and 2/3rds of the Northern forces are held up by 300, If Roose Assaults it, 300 could take out 3000, but Roose takes the castle in a few days. Either way under the scenario where there is no trechary, its a win for Tywin.... but the castle falls either way.

Remember also that this is the Authors personal opinion on this... the same author who wrote that a person, and numerous straw men got shot with arrows from people 700 feet below them... he is not a expert on medieval warfare or weapons.

[Universal Sword Donor]

As a delaying, or attrition tactic, sure, but it would not have held to an assault. Tywin knows that he can bleed the North and win. If Rooses sieges it, then its 6 months until the defenders starve, and 2/3rds of the Northern forces are held up by 300, If Roose Assaults it, 300 could take out 3000, but Roose takes the castle in a few days. Either way under the scenario where there is no trechary, its a win for Tywin.... but the castle falls either way.

Remember also that this is the Authors personal opinion on this... the same author who wrote that a person, and numerous straw men got shot with arrows from people 700 feet below them... he is not a expert on medieval warfare or weapons.

It's a good thing this isn't a work of authentic, historical fiction then.

[Mourneblade]

It's a good thing this isn't a work of authentic, historical fiction then.

True enough, but even the author has admitted to taking some unrealistic liberties that he has since regretted with some of the battle sequences.

[Artos Cold]

Logic would place Winterfell at White Harbour: it's the largest city north of the Neck, the largest port, and a hub of trade. It is just across the Narrow Sea from the Free Cities, and guards the White Knife river, which flows into the heart of Northern territory.
 
It'd also be comparatively mild, climate-wise, being both southerly and maritime.

White Harbor was built 1300 years ago, Winterfell was built 8000 years ago.