Stannis, Renly and kinslaying.

[Lord Thornhart]

Melisandre 100% killed Renly. Stannis is just rumored to be a kinslayer, but being called a kinslayer is not the same as being one and vice versa. For example, even though it is extremely obvious Gregor killed his sister, he is not a kinslayer because no one has ever called him that.

[A Man Has Said]

Yeah but then a man could go a step further and say that what with Renly intending to queue jump Stannis, Stannis can only assume Renly means to do away with him, and for that reason he attacked him first in an attempt to either make him stand down, or kill him.

That green armour...

Can you find ONE WORD in the text of the novels that indicates Renly intended to kill Stannis before Stannis besieged Storm's End?

IN FACT, no-one in Westeros hears from Stannis from the time the novels begin until shortly before he shows up at Storm's Landing with the Red Witch. For all Renly knows, he's taken himself out of the game.

The timeline (not canon, but there is no canon timeline) has Jon Arryn dying in the second month of 298 AL, which is presumably the time that Stannis leaves King's Landing and Robert takes his ponderous expedition to Winterfell.

It's over a year later (299, 3rd month) and after Robert is dead that Stannis (aka Mr. Duty) sends out his "Joffrey is a bastard" letters.

Two months later Catelyn reaches Bitterbridge.

Two months after that is when Renly first treats with Stannis. It's the first time he has heard of the twincest allegation, and the first he's seen or talked to his brother in a year and a half.

So where is your theory of Renly's intent to kill Stannis written in the novels?

We're supposed to be discussing THE NOVELS in this forum, not your wild conjecture.

[Minsc]

Is executing a traitor kinslaying? If the gods have any sense, I'm sure they've forgiven Stannis. Renly was, after all, the younger brother, and it was his duty, according to their laws, to bow down to his elder brother.

Bloodraven is considered a kinslayer for leading the archer company that killed his half-brother Daemon Blackfyre, thus likely yes.

[The Kinkslayer]

It wasn't incest.. I mean kinslaying, because Stannis was born again amid salt and smoke.

Azor Ahai reborn has no brothers.

[The Drunkard]

Probably, but kinslaying is a silly taboo. If someone doesn't deserve to die, they don't deserve to die, and if they do, they do. That they're related to you shouldn't matter. I wouldn't hold it against Roose if he killed Ramsay, I don't hold it against Tyrion for killing his father, I wouldn't care if Asha killed any of the other Greyjoys, I don't hold it against Robb for killing Rickard (though that's a dubious claim on Rickard's part), I don't hold it against Bloodraven for having his archers kill his brother, I don't hold it against Dany for not doing anything to stop Viserys' death, and I don't hold it against Stannis for knowingly or unknowingly killing Renly at the time the two agreed to do battle.

[Winterfell is Burning]

When Renly crowned himself, he signed Stannis' death sentence. Killing him is more than justified.

That said, Bloodraven was more than justified in killing Daemon Blackfyre and people call him a kinslayer anyway.

Can you find ONE WORD in the text of the novels that indicates Renly intended to kill Stannis before Stannis besieged Storm's End?

IN FACT, no-one in Westeros hears from Stannis from the time the novels begin until shortly before he shows up at Storm's Landing with the Red Witch. For all Renly knows, he's taken himself out of the game.

The timeline (not canon, but there is no canon timeline) has Jon Arryn dying in the second month of 298 AL, which is presumably the time that Stannis leaves King's Landing and Robert takes his ponderous expedition to Winterfell.
It's over a year later (299, 3rd month) and after Robert is dead that Stannis (aka Mr. Duty) sends out his "Joffrey is a bastard" letters.

Two months later Catelyn reaches Bitterbridge.

Two months after that is when Renly first treats with Stannis. It's the first time he has heard of the twincest allegation, and the first he's seen or talked to his brother in a year and a half.

So where is your theory of Renly's intent to kill Stannis written in the novels?

We're supposed to be discussing THE NOVELS in this forum, not your wild conjecture.

How is a younger brother supposed to be crowned king if the older brother is alive, capable, and not a Maester or member of the NW?

Tell me, how does that happen?

Renly doesn't need to say out loud he wants Stannis to die, it's already implicit that he wants him and Robert's (alleged) children to be killed the moment he crowns himself.

[The Stags Man]

Probably, but kinslaying is a silly taboo. If someone doesn't deserve to die, they don't deserve to die, and if they do, they do. That they're related to you shouldn't matter. I wouldn't hold it against Roose if he killed Ramsay, I don't hold it against Tyrion for killing his father, I wouldn't care if Asha killed any of the other Greyjoys, I don't hold it against Robb for killing Rickard (though that's a dubious claim on Rickard's part), I don't hold it against Bloodraven for having his archers kill his brother, I don't hold it against Dany for not doing anything to stop Viserys' death, and I don't hold it against Stannis for knowingly or unknowingly killing Renly at the time the two agreed to do battle.

The stain for kinslaying is if someone is not able to forgive/spare/trust their own blood why would they do that for anyone else?

[James Arryn]

Not necessarily all the mutineers.

Stannis is dealing with the repercussions of having to do Renly before Renly did him. Totally legit. Renly told him he will kill him. If that doesn't justify homicide of anyone, nothing does.

I drive to your neighbourhood. I break into your house. I hold a gun to your wife's head. You reach for a baseball bat and I shoot you, under the 'hey, man, it was kill or be killed! What was I supposed to do?' rationale.

Stannis attacked Renly. Stannis attacked Renly. Stannis attacked Renly. It's amazing to me now often this is glossed over. Stannis attacks Renly, then when Renly goes to defend himself in an honourable fashion, Stannis shadowbaby assassinates Renly and somehow this was Stannis just reacting to Renly.

[Boarsbane]

I drive to your neighbourhood. I break into your house. I hold a gun to your wife's head. You reach for a baseball bat and I shoot you, under the 'hey, man, it was kill or be killed! What was I supposed to do?' rationale.

Stannis attacked Renly. Stannis attacked Renly. Stannis attacked Renly. It's amazing to me now often this is glossed over. Stannis attacks Renly, then when Renly goes to defend himself in an honourable fashion, Stannis shadowbaby assassinates Renly and somehow this was Stannis just reacting to Renly.

Renly was asking for it by not magically knowing Stannis had crowned himself.

[James Arryn]

Renly was asking for it by not magically knowing Stannis had crowned himself.

...or that he was supposing any grounds for it other than Renly's own, which was not based on succession, but rather success and survival. Renly never declared war on Stannis. The first he knew about their being at war was when Stannis attacked him.

Renly, it can be assumed, like the rest of Westeros probably imagined that Stannis and he were more united by the common enemy/danger of the Lannisters than divided over who wears the crown. His first instinct was to get Ned fully in charge, so it's not like he was obsessed with ruling for it's own sake. But it was the best option available. And short of shadow-baby assassins, it still would be.

[Boarsbane]

...or that he was supposing any grounds for it other than Renly's own, which was not based on succession, but rather success and survival. Renly never declared war on Stannis. The first he knew about their being at war was when Stannis attacked him.

Renly, it can be assumed, like the rest of Westeros probably imagined that Stannis and he were more united by the common enemy/danger of the Lannisters than divided over who wears the crown. His first instinct was to get Ned fully in charge, so it's not like he was obsessed with ruling for it's own sake. But it was the best option available. And short of shadow-baby assassins, it still would be.

I was kidding, I think it is stupid to claim it was self defense by Stannis when he instigated the confrontation.

[James Arryn]

I was kidding, I think it is stupid to claim it was self defense by Stannis when he instigated the confrontation.

No, I knew we were in agreement.

I was just taking the absurdity one step further, the whole 'Renly, who thought Joff represented the succession argument for Kingship, and was therefore challenging based on other grounds for the crown, like Robert had before him, was somehow betraying Stannis because of...succession'....? thing.

Sorry if my phrasing was unclear.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Renly was asking for it by not magically knowing Stannis had crowned himself.

It doesn't matter if Renly knew Stannis was crowning himself or not; when he crowns himself, he's sentencing Stannis to death, and he knew that pretty well, as anyone that knows the laws of succession and how the politics of Westeros work knows.

[Winterfell is Burning]

No, I knew we were in agreement.

I was just taking the absurdity one step further, the whole 'Renly, who thought Joff represented the succession argument for Kingship, and was therefore challenging based on other grounds for the crown, like Robert had before him, was somehow betraying Stannis because of...succession'....? thing.

Sorry if my phrasing was unclear.

No, he's betraying Stannis because Renly knows that a younger brother can NEVER ascend to the throne if the elder brother is alive and not removed from the succession.by being incapable, Maester or NW member.

As long as Stannis is alive, he has a far better claim than Renly and everyone knows it; do you really think the Tyrells would just let him ran loose without doing anything while he's a threat to Margaery and her future children?

Renly can only become King by murdering Stannis or at best forcing him to join the NW, no discussion there.

[James Arryn]

No, he's betraying Stannis because Renly knows that a younger brother can NEVER ascend to the throne if the elder brother is alive and not removed from the succession.by being incapable, Maester or NW member.

As long as Stannis is alive, he has a far better claim than Renly and everyone knows it; do you really think the Tyrells would just let him ran loose without doing anything while he's a threat to Margaery and her future children?

Renly can only become King by murdering Stannis or at best forcing him to join the NW, no discussion there.

You're wrong.

Where was Egg, in the line of succession? Did he have everyone 'ahead' of him killed after he took the throne? What was the Dance about? Was Robert ahead of or behind Viserys in the line of succession?

His. Entire. Point. Was. That. Succession. Was. Only. Part. Of. The. Argument.

When he proposes that Ned take over, did he suggest murdering all the children?

No. Because he is more interested in the reality of power than the false illusion that there is a clear delineation of who succeeds based only on birth. He KNOWS that Robert was not Aerys' heir. And he knows Stannis knew that, too.

[IRON BANK]

commanders are responsible for the actions of their subordinates, So stannis did kill his brother. However we also have the fact that Renly and Stannis were in an open war with one another Renly knowing the facts and not submitting to Stannis. So any actions by Stannis might be able to be overlooked him being the older brother and next in line to the throne.

[Boarsbane]

commanders are responsible for the actions of their subordinates, So stannis did kill his brother. However we also have the fact that Renly and Stannis were in an open war with one another Renly knowing the facts and not submitting to Stannis. So any actions by Stannis might be able to be overlooked him being the older brother and next in line to the throne.

Renly doesn't know the facts. Stannis' letter looks like a self serving lie because he waited too long to send it.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Egg was crowned because Aemon refused the throne, and the Grand Council had the power to nominate him, it was a special situation. Besides, there was no other heir besides one feeble-minded daughter of Aerion, who was behind Egg in the line of succession anyway.

Ned didn't wanted to kill all the children because there was no need: he was going to reveal without a doubt that they were bastards. And he was against killing Dany for moral and ethical reasons, not political ones.

Why do you think Tywin killed Rhaegar's children and Robert tried to kill Aerys'? Because as long as they are alive, they were a threat, despite the fact the entire dynasty was overthrown.

And they were just children, Stannis a grown man and one of the most respected commanders in the 7 Kingdoms, known for his strength and determination, from a dynasty that has not been overthrown.

Again, do you actually believe that Renly and the Tyrells, specially the latter, would just let Stannis alive and free? Seriously? Because if you do, there's a bridge I'd like to sell you.

[IRON BANK]

Renly doesn't know the facts. Stannis' letter looks like a self serving lie because he waited too long to send it.

Renly does not know that the older brother comes first in the sucession. Yes he does. Does Renly realize now that his brother the king is dead, Stannis as the older brother makes decisions for his family? Yes he does. Does Renly go against that arrangement? Yes He does. At that point Does Renly PUT HIS LIFE AND OTHERS THAT FOLLOW HIM AT RISK? hE SURE DOES.

[James Arryn]

commanders are responsible for the actions of their subordinates, So stannis did kill his brother. However we also have the fact that Renly and Stannis were in an open war with one another Renly knowing the facts and not submitting to Stannis. So any actions by Stannis might be able to be overlooked him being the older brother and next in line to the throne.

What facts does he know?

Stannis doesn't even know. He strongly suspects. Because we are given a unique narrative view, we know Stannis' suspicions are real, but he doesn't. His suspicions conform to his desires in a way which would seem ridiculously convenient to an outsider, or court of law, or w/e.

Or, to put it another way...Baratheons are famed for their thick dark hair and joy of life.

Robert had thick dark hair and a joy of life. The laughing storm, likewise. Renly, too.

....BUT WAIT A MINUTE...

Now, imagine that argument presented by Renly a year after Stannis is crowned. You gonna buy it?