Heresy 114

[Yield.]

Ooh... very interesting thought there, Urrax.. with good follow up by Yield. A possible misdirection by Martin right from the start of the books. (Or at least a multi-layering of meaning.) Of course the readers (and characters) are going to view the omen as concerning House Stark and House Baratheon... but Baratheon could be the (much overused) "red herring" here.

I find the possibilities more chilling than this. To me, the omen is more likely an indicator that the Green Men (or related parties) are the ones responsible for the downfall of House Stark / Winterfell. Death and destruction of direwolf... by elk.

[ FWIW - The idea that the mother direwolf symbolizes Winterfell, or House Stark, has grown on me a great deal.... as opposed to the more concrete connection to Ned's individual execution. Heresy has probably discussed this before somewhere, but as an omen it just seems to work better in several ways if we connect the dead wolf with the House. One thing in particular that makes more sense is the way it contextualizes Ghost / Jon. There's been a good bit of discussion about where Ghost came from, whether he's actually born of that same dead wolf... trying to make a direct tie-in between Ghost's biological origin and what we suspect about Jon himself, etc. But in the end, a lot of that seems like overthinking. Jon is a "son of Winterfell" - just as the other Stark children are all "blood of Winterfell." The mother direwolf serves as a stand-in for the House. And that makes sense in the larger framework, where Ned's death is a relatively small (albeit crucial and shocking) plot point, and the bigger issue through all five books (and counting) is the fact that Winterfell itself (the entire House of Starks) appears to have been wiped out. And we read on with bated breath to find out whether the pups survive... ]

Yes, "stag" is the word that I most readily associate with this scene as well. "Elk" is a word used much less frequently in these books - the mention I recall most vividly is the same posted above by FFR. I would not initially have connected these two words on my own - but a glance at the wikipedia article for elk shows that the word "stag" is appropriate for referencing the male elk. Go figure.

Good collection of quotations. That description of Mance's tent is an especially good find... I did not remember that one!

ETA: Initial post by Urrax. (Credit where credit is due!) :)

Yeah the Green Man sending an elk to kill the direwolf would really point to Bloodraven running his network again wouldn't it? The destruction of House Stark really sets in motion Bran fleeing for his life and going north of the Wall as his only alternative. I don't like to give Bloodraven too much credit but really he was an awesome spymaster and ultimate schemer.

I agree with you that the foreshadowing is more to do with the House that with the individual, because ironically the direwolf is the sigil of the entire Stark lineage and tied to Winterfell. So if Winterfell is left unmanned due to the expunction of the House members, what does that mean to the Ice forces that are already in motion? And is this a plan or serendipity?

[Jojen]

Its a point we discussed some time back in Heresy, with the thought being that raising the dead involves a partial awakening of the spirit sleeping within.

It would be fascinating if this also applied to the skin wearing/skinchanging of the FM. Although I believe we've more or less agreed that it has more to do with the bones than with the skin.

At any rate, I see a parallel between Bran's time in BR's cave and Arya's at the House of Black and White.

[Tyryan Lannister]

It would be fascinating if this also applied to the skin wearing/skinchanging of the FM. Although I believe we've more or less agreed that it has more to do with the bones than with the skin.

At any rate, I see a parallel between Bran's time in BR's cave and Arya's at the House of Black and White.

And I would throw in a parellel to Sansa's time at the Eyrie, and possibly also to Jon's time Beyond--all four of these excurssions have a Greek "trip to Hades, come out a changed man" quality to them

[Melifeather]

Yeah the Green Man sending an elk to kill the direwolf would really point to Bloodraven running his network again wouldn't it? The destruction of House Stark really sets in motion Bran fleeing for his life and going north of the Wall as his only alternative. I don't like to give Bloodraven too much credit but really he was an awesome spymaster and ultimate schemer.

I agree with you that the foreshadowing is more to do with the House that with the individual, because ironically the direwolf is the sigil of the entire Stark lineage and tied to Winterfell. So if Winterfell is left unmanned due to the expunction of the House members, what does that mean to the Ice forces that are already in motion? And is this a plan or serendipity?

What you are implying is a means for a punishment by Ice.

[Jojen]

And I would throw in a parellel to Sansa's time at the Eyrie, and possibly also to Jon's time Beyond--all four of these excurssions have a Greek "trip to Hades, come out a changed man" quality to them

Not to mention Dany's visit to the House of the Undying. Although, so far, she's the only one to destroy the place after she leaves.

[Frey family reunion]

Not to mention Dany's visit to the House of the Undying. Although, so far, she's the only one to destroy the place after she leaves.

Well she destroys everywhere else she leaves so why not.

[Harlan]

Yeah the Green Man sending an elk to kill the direwolf would really point to Bloodraven running his network again wouldn't it? The destruction of House Stark really sets in motion Bran fleeing for his life and going north of the Wall as his only alternative. I don't like to give Bloodraven too much credit but really he was an awesome spymaster and ultimate schemer.

Brynden is a tree now, though. Do trees scheme or plot? I feel like trees should just sit and watch for the most part....

[Tyryan Lannister]

Not to mention Dany's visit to the House of the Undying. Although, so far, she's the only one to destroy the place after she leaves.

Well she destroys everywhere else she leaves so why not.

It all fits with this dynamic:

Bran is a Builder

Jon is a Leader

Sansa is (being made into) a Politician

Arya is a Priestess (of sorts)

All four of which are roles essential for a thriving community (substitute priestess with "spiritual leader" or whatever if you like)

While we then have:

Dany is a Conqueror

Conquerors don't have a place in The Community--there sole purpose vis-a-vis The Community is to remake it in their own image, which requires destruction of the Old

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

...the app, much like the wiki, is really not to be trusted.

Just as a point of emphasis here, about the danger of relying on the wiki... and as an excuse for bringing up something otherwise not connected with our recent discussions... I'd like to highlight something I noticed recently during my continuing research into horticultural themes,

The other day, I found myself looking up definitions and references to "greensickness." Now, some of you may be more familiar with the term than I was... but it turns out that green sickness was a medical diagnosis that began trending in the 16th century thanks to a guy named Johannes Lange. Doctor Lange was approached by a father concerned that his daughter's face, which had "during the past year blossomed in rosy cheeks and red lips," had suddenly "turned pale, as if bloodless." And Lange's response was that this sort of change was commonly seen in young virgins who were "ripe for a man," and could be cured by marriage. He diagnosed her with "chlorosis" (greensickness), and referred to it as De Morbo Vigineo: "the disease of virgins."

Beyond that earliest "official" diagnosis, this disease makes numerous appearances in early modern literature - poetry, prose drama, etc. So, when Juliet refuses her father's arranged marriage, he curses her as "green-sickness carrion." And in Robert Greene's Mamillia (1583), a father resolves to find a marriage for his daughter because:

"...perceiving his daughter to be marriageable knowing by skill and experience, that the grasse being ready for the sieth, would wither if it were not cut, and the apples beeing rype, for want of plucking would rotte on the tree; that his daughter beeing at the age of twentie yeeres, would either fall into the greene sicknes for want of a husband, or els if she scaped that disease, incurre a farther inconvenience."

Or we get this exchange between managers of a brothel (from the Shakespearean collab Pericles, Prince of Tyre, ~1608):

Boult:

'Faith, I must ravish her, or she'll

disfurnish us of all our cavaliers, and make

our swearers priests.

Pand:

Now, the pox upon her green-sickness

for me!

(See also various poems dealing with greensickness, including some by Thomas Carew, and by Edward, Lord Herbert of Cherbury.)

Anyway, GRRM opens one of the Sam chapters in AFFC like this: "The sea made Samwell Tarly greensick." Which is rather clever, because basically Martin is using the term "greensick" as a sort of double-entendre - substituting "greensickness" where the reader would expect "seasickness," as Sam departs on a journey in close quarters with Gilly and her milk-laden breasts. It's a funny sentence that sets up all kinds of interesting subtext for the rest of his journey with Gilly to Oldtown... with Sam obsessing over his vow of celibacy, picking fights with Dareon for breaking vows of celibacy, fearing a reunion with the father who considered him less than a man... and ultimately culminating (climaxing?) with their "marriage" aboard the Cinnamon Wind after Maester Aemon's death (during which Sam continues to mentally obsess of his vows... "I said the words, I said the words, etc.")

What does the wiki do with this? Well, first of all I was sort of surprised to find a Wiki of Ice and Fire article on this at all - but it actually came up when I did a general google search - here it is. And let me say that I'm not just being critical of the wiki for failing to notice what I've outlined above. I didn't notice it either until I started looking things up, and it's subtle. So the wiki definition isn't terrible, it just isn't very insightful: "Greensick mostly means suffering from seasickness but it can also refer to being hung over." Here's the whole thing:

Greensick mostly means suffering from seasickness but it can also refer to being hung over.

Characters who suffer from greensick

• Ser Archibald Yronwood - suffers from chronic, debilitating greensick
• Ser Rodrik Cassel
• Samwell Tarly
• Jayne Ladybright
• Penny
• Irri
• Jhiqui

Quotes “ "A jape, Your Grace. From the ships. I was greensick the whole way from Volantis. Heaving and . . . well, I shouldn't say." ”

- Ser Archibald Yronwood, explaining his nickname of Greenguts to Daenerys Targaryen

So, no beef with the initial definition, as simple as it is. But that list of characters who "suffer" from greensickness is just wrong. I ran searches, so I can say with some certainty that this is not a list of characters who are described as "greensick" in Martin's books. It is a list of characters who have been seasick or hungover in Martin's books. I may have missed a few, but the only characters I've seen referred to as "greensick" are Sam, Archibald Yronwood, and Arya (once when Yoren claims she's drunk), with Jeyne Ladybright described as greensick in a WOW sample chapter. Never Rodrik Cassel (though he gets seasick). Never Irri or Jhiqui (though, again, they don't like traveling by boat). And never Penny (though I might double check that one... she very well could suffer from "virgin's disease.")

But that's the wiki.

(End of Useless Trivia Rant) :)

ETA: Should have mentioned, that cinnamon seems to have been one of the more prominent herbal remedies prescribed for treatment of greensickness. Thus, perhaps, the Cinnamon Wind...

ETA2: Cinnamon being associated with heat (i.e., fire), whereas the greensickness is associated with the frigid cold (i.e., ice). Other herbal treatments were similarly associated with "warmth," including both wormwood and mint... each of which appear disguised as characters or Houses in these books. Wormwood being House Mormont... and Mint being House Lannister (or at least, Tyrion... by the end of ADWD).

[Tyryan Lannister]

Brynden is a tree now, though. Do trees scheme or plot? I feel like trees should just sit and watch for the most part....

I've always had a feeling the oak in my backyard is up to no good....

[Tyryan Lannister]

Just as a point of emphasis here, about the danger of relying on the wiki... and as an excuse for bringing up something otherwise not connected with our recent discussions... I'd like to highlight something I noticed recently during my continuing research into horticultural themes,

The other day, I found myself looking up definitions and references to "greensickness." Now, some of you may be more familiar with the term than I was... but it turns out that green sickness was a medical diagnosis that began trending in the 16th century thanks to a guy named Johannes Lange. Doctor Lange was approached by a father concerned that his daughter's face, which had "during the past year blossomed in rosy cheeks and red lips," had suddenly "turned pale, as if bloodless." And Lange's response was that this sort of change was commonly seen in young virgins who were "ripe for a man," and could be cured by marriage. He diagnosed her with "chlorosis" (greensickness), and referred to it as De Morbo Vigineo: "the disease of virgins."

Beyond that earliest "official" diagnosis, this disease makes numerous appearances in early modern literature - poetry, prose drama, etc. So, when Juliet refuses her father's arranged marriage, he curses her as "green-sickness carrion." And in Robert Greene's Mamillia (1583), a father resolves to find a marriage for his daughter because:

"...perceiving his daughter to be marriageable knowing by skill and experience, that the grasse being ready for the sieth, would wither if it were not cut, and the apples beeing rype, for want of plucking would rotte on the tree; that his daughter beeing at the age of twentie yeeres, would either fall into the greene sicknes for want of a husband, or els if she scaped that disease, incurre a farther inconvenience."

Or we get this exchange between managers of a brothel (from the Shakespearean collab Pericles, Prince of Tyre, ~1608):

(See also various poems dealing with greensickness, including some by Thomas Carew, and by Edward, Lord Herbert of Cherbury.)

Anyway, GRRM opens one of the Sam chapters in AFFC like this: "The sea made Samwell Tarly greensick." Which is rather clever, because basically Martin is using the term "greensick" as a sort of double-entendre - substituting "greensickness" where the reader would expect "seasickness," as Sam departs on a journey in close quarters with Gilly and her milk-laden breasts. It's a funny sentence that sets up all kinds of interesting subtext for the rest of his journey with Gilly to Oldtown... with Sam obsessing over his vow of celibacy, picking fights with Dareon for breaking vows of celibacy, fearing a reunion with the father who considered him less than a man... and ultimately culminating (climaxing?) with their "marriage" aboard the Cinnamon Wind after Maester Aemon's death (during which Sam continues to mentally obsess of his vows... "I said the words, I said the words, etc.")

What does the wiki do with this? Well, first of all I was sort of surprised to find a Wiki of Ice and Fire article on this at all - but it actually came up when I did a general google search - here it is. And let me say that I'm not just being critical of the wiki for failing to notice what I've outlined above. I didn't notice it either until I started looking things up, and it's subtle. So the wiki definition isn't terrible, it just isn't very insightful: "Greensick mostly means suffering from seasickness but it can also refer to being hung over." Here's the whole thing:

So, no beef with the initial definition, as simple as it is. But that list of characters who "suffer" from greensickness is just wrong. I ran searches, so I can say with some certainty that this is not a list of characters who are described as "greensick" in Martin's books. It is a list of characters who have been seasick or hungover in Martin's books. I may have missed a few, but the only characters I've seen referred to as "greensick" are Sam, Archibald Yronwood, and Arya (once when Yoren claims she's drunk), with Jeyne Ladybright described as greensick in a WOW sample chapter. Never Rodrik Cassel (though he gets seasick). Never Irri or Jhiqui (though, again, they don't like traveling by boat). And never Penny (though I might double check that one... she very well could suffer from "virgin's disease.")

But that's the wiki.

(End of Useless Trivia Rant) :)

Very very interesting indeed

Going off of a small thing you bring up, the NW vows and celibacy. Something that I have been rattling in my brain is the question of do the vows actually require you to remain celibate? I argue no. The wording is "shall father no child" and "shall take no wife", not "shall sleep with no woman". Yes, pregnancy, marriage, and sex are very much interrelated, but they are not equal. I would say that the purpose of these parts of the words is to emphasize that a Black Brother does not love, for love is the death of duty. Sex does not necessarily equal love. The point being that by sleeping with Ygritte and Gilly, Jon and Sam did not break their vows (now, Jon falling in love with Ygritte might be a break in the vow)

[Melifeather]

After further reflection on Yield's post regarding the possibility of Bloodraven running the show, killing off House Stark and my first thought going to a punishment by ice, but what if it's more than that? What if Bloodraven is making way for Daenerys to sweep in and destroy Ice just as Melisandre wants to destroy darkness and the god who's name shall not be mentioned? Either that or, he's bringing ice and fire into conflict so that they destroy each other and thus eliminate magic from the world?

I don't think I'm alone in Heresy with feeling some favoritism towards the Jon and the Starks, so it's dismaying to think that the good guys will perish, but it could be a situation where their end is a means towards a greater good.

[King of Winters]

Crackpot: Maybe the Green Men, knowing that someone/something was sending the Starks the direwolf pups for no good purpose, tried to forestall it by sending one of their elks to kill Mama, and it got there just too late?

Unlikely as the antler has been fashioned into a weapon by somone:

A foot of shattered antler, tines snapped off, all wet with blood

The tines have been snapped off on purpose and someone has used it to kill the Direwolf there for some reason. That reason is so the Starks could find them.

[Harlan]

The tines have been snapped off on purpose and someone has used it to kill the Direwolf there for some reason. That reason is so the Starks could find them.

We definitely don't know that. the diremommy could have tried to take down a dear and got stabbed in the throat with a tine. In the struggle, the tine broke off and became lodged inside the diremommies throat. We don't know that a person did anything....

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Very very interesting indeed

Going off of a small thing you bring up, the NW vows and celibacy. Something that I have been rattling in my brain is the question of do the vows actually require you to remain celibate? I argue no. The wording is "shall father no child" and "shall take no wife", not "shall sleep with no woman". Yes, pregnancy, marriage, and sex are very much interrelated, but they are not equal. I would say that the purpose of these parts of the words is to emphasize that a Black Brother does not love, for love is the death of duty. Sex does not necessarily equal love. The point being that by sleeping with Ygritte and Gilly, Jon and Sam did not break their vows (now, Jon falling in love with Ygritte might be a break in the vow)

Yes, I think that's a fair take from a reader's perspective. Difficult to imagine that interpretation being implemented (or admitted to) in official practice - though Tormund sort of makes that very argument to Jon from the wildling perspective, as they trek south with the Hordes. ("After the seed is planted, you have naught to do with it..." or something close). And it's actually sort of descriptive of what happens with Mole Town (much sex, very few paternity suits), and might explain the rejection of baby Craster back in the day as well ("Sorry ma'am, I said a vow.") In that sense, the vow starts to look like something of a disclaimer: a "buyer beware" sign to women. Weird as that sounds.

Also reminds me of an earlier discussion (maybe on another thread, regarding the identity of Jon's father) - in which I pointed out the distinction between "father" and "baby daddy." As far as Jon Snow is concerned, Ned Stark was one, but not the other. And if we made that same distinction with respect to the NW vows... well that would leave us with the point you make in your post, basically. (Full circle. Huzzah!)

[JNR]

Going off of a small thing you bring up, the NW vows and celibacy. Something that I have been rattling in my brain is the question of do the vows actually require you to remain celibate? I argue no. The wording is "shall father no child" and "shall take no wife", not "shall sleep with no woman".

I think so too. Presumably the NW could solve the entire problem by sticking to certain sex acts as a matter of routine.

"As all can plainly see, I am but taking a girlfriend. And what she is doing to me involves a 0% chance of fathering children."

The Kingsguard might or might not similarly have such options as a technical matter, if we knew the exact terms of the vow they swore... which would also be tremendously helpful in addressing certain matters that are discussed endlessly in the General section.

[Urrax2]

Back on the topic of skinchanging: The tomcat with the damaged ear who appeared to Arya back about the time Ned was beheaded, and shows up again hanging around Tommen's cat in the epilogue to Dance - is somebody skinchanging him to spy on Kings Landing? Who?

[Tyryan Lannister]

Back on the topic of skinchanging: The tomcat with the damaged ear who appeared to Arya back about the time Ned was beheaded, and shows up again hanging around Tommen's cat in the epilogue to Dance - is somebody skinchanging him to spy on Kings Landing? Who?

One of the older theories on this one is that it is BR (I'm not quite sold on it)

Another theory about that cat (and this is one that I quite like) is that this cat is the same one that Princess Rhaella had with her during the Sack (and therefore could potentially be host to her disembodied soul, say some)

[Melifeather]

Back on the topic of skinchanging: The tomcat with the damaged ear who appeared to Arya back about the time Ned was beheaded, and shows up again hanging around Tommen's cat in the epilogue to Dance - is somebody skinchanging him to spy on Kings Landing? Who?

I think quite a number of people have suspected Bloodraven.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Just as a point of emphasis here, about the danger of relying on the wiki... and as an excuse for bringing up something otherwise not connected with our recent discussions... I'd like to highlight something I noticed recently during my continuing research into horticultural themes,

My primary use of the wiki is to locate book/chapter for quotes, and then I go to an online source and can find the quote much quicker.