Reasons Roose Bolton is not so hated in the north afterall.

[Mourneblade]

He was made goddamn warden of the north immediately after his Kings murder. Of course the entire North knows of his treason and they definitely hate him for it.

someone had to.

This.... How did he become Warden of the North. Did he arrive at the Twins late and decide to bend the knee since the King was murdered without an heir and the war was lost? Or did he become Warden of the North because he betrayed Robb.

It is incorrect to assume everyone knows Roose's involvement especially in the North when there are so many stories and possibilities floating around out there. He is not liked that is for certain, but there is a clear difference between bending the knee after your king is dead and the war is lost, to Roose stabbing him in the heart and saying "Jamie Lannister sends his regards".

Very few in the North know the truth.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

This.... How did he become Warden of the North. Did he arrive at the Twins late and decide to bend the knee since the King was murdered without an heir and the war was lost? Or did he become Warden of the North because he betrayed Robb.

It is incorrect to assume everyone knows Roose's involvement especially in the North when there are so many stories and possibilities floating around out there. He is not liked that is for certain, but there is a clear difference between bending the knee after your king is dead and the war is lost, to Roose stabbing him in the heart and saying "Jamie Lannister sends his regards".

Very few in the North know the truth.

Everyone knew Sansa was still alive, she was the heir without her brothers. If Roose knew about the will, he also knows where Jon Snow is.

[Mourneblade]

Everyone knew Sansa was still alive, she was the heir without her brothers.

You mean King Tyrion Sansa's husband.... uhm yeah....

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

You mean King Tyrion Sansa's husband.... uhm yeah....

So, he gets in bed with the Lannisters because the legit Stark heir is...erm...in bed with the Lannisters?

[Mad Monkey]

If the Northmen actually believe -- after all the shit that he's put them through that Roose Bolton is on their side or not in bed with the Freys and the Lannisters, they deserve whatever the hell he does to them. I've seen some disgusting displays of suicidal naivete in this series before but that would take the cake. That would be like Brienne letting Biter convince her that he was just trying to give her a peck on the cheek for good luck.

There's being trusting but wary, and then there's being actively self-destructive and trusting Bolton after this would be a clear case of the latter. Same goes if Stannis accepts him on his team too.

Bolton simply doesn't seem to add that much. He's not incompetent, but he's not the kind of all-star that you would have to be to get away with being such a repulsive little gonif. There is basically no reason why anyone who wants to retake the North from the Freys and Lannisters shouldn't strike off his head as soon as possible. Even the dubious support of the Dreadfort men wouldn't be worth it -- Robb theoretically had the support of the Dreadfort and they still stabbed him in through the heart. Allying with Roose means sleepless nights wondering if someone else has made him a better offer, as well as the near certain guarantee that you won't be able to give him any real responsibilities because he will use it to enrich himself and weaken you "just in case" he wants to betray you later.

If you were playing Scrabble with Roose, he would be the kind of person who would try to insist that ZQJMPKO is a word hours after it's clear that nobody believes him and the dictionary doesn't agree with him. If you were playing Monopoly with him, he would be the kind of person who theatrically takes money out of the bank in full view of the other players while insisting that he's not stealing anything. If Roose were playing Jenga, he is the kind of person who would knock over the stack as soon as it's finished.

Any kind of partnership with him is inherently fruitless (unless you have a clearly dominant position) since you will have to spend all of your time and energy just keeping tabs on him. It would be like having a 2-year old in the cockpit of the F16 with you.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Roose is one man in a hall. What was he supposed to do? Who knows what story he spun? Perhaps he claims he was captured, then released on Tywin's orders as his nominated warden of the north as the best of a bad bunch?

To quote Sirius Black, "I would have died. I would have died rather than betray my friends", in this case, "lords". Many people there died trying to protect Robb.

[Mourneblade]

So, he gets in bed with the Lannisters because the legit Stark heir is...erm...in bed with the Lannisters?

No I said that because only the Flint's know that there are legitimate Heir's on the Loose. To the rest of the North their King is dead, any heirs are captured or dead, and the war is lost, someone had to bend the knee, and Roose is the strongest house remaining.

[Mourneblade]

If the Northmen actually believe -- after all the shit that he's put them through that Roose Bolton is on their side or not in bed with the Freys and the Lannisters, they deserve whatever the hell he does to them. I've seen some disgusting displays of suicidal naivete in this series before but that would take the cake. That would be like Brienne letting Biter convince her that he was just trying to give her a peck on the cheek for good luck.

There's being trusting but wary, and then there's being actively self-destructive and trusting Bolton after this would be a clear case of the latter. Same goes if Stannis accepts him on his team too.

Bolton simply doesn't seem to add that much. He's not incompetent, but he's not the kind of all-star that you would have to be to get away with being such a repulsive little gonif. There is basically no reason why anyone who wants to retake the North from the Freys and Lannisters shouldn't strike off his head as soon as possible. Even the dubious support of the Dreadfort men wouldn't be worth it -- Robb theoretically had the support of the Dreadfort and they still stabbed him in through the heart. Allying with Roose means sleepless nights wondering if someone else has made him a better offer, as well as the near certain guarantee that you won't be able to give him any real responsibilities because he will use it to enrich himself and weaken you "just in case" he wants to betray you later.

If you were playing Scrabble with Roose, he would be the kind of person who would try to insist that ZQJMPKO is a word hours after it's clear that nobody believes him and the dictionary doesn't agree with him. If you were playing Monopoly with him, he would be the kind of person who theatrically takes money out of the bank in full view of the other players while insisting that he's not stealing anything. If Roose were playing Jenga, he is the kind of person who would knock over the stack as soon as it's finished.

Any kind of partnership with him is inherently fruitless (unless you have a clearly dominant position) since you will have to spend all of your time and energy just keeping tabs on him. It would be like having a 2-year old in the cockpit of the F16 with you.

And how do you go about this... no Lord in the North can hope to "cut the head off" Roose, by themselves.... even if they are all united its tricky. You cannot fight the Iron Born, the Boltons, and the Freys without ending up like Robb, without some serious planning and uniting. It is not something that can be done overtly.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

No I said that because only the Flint's know that there are legitimate Heir's on the Loose. To the rest of the North their King is dead, any heirs are captured or dead, and the war is lost, someone had to bend the knee, and Roose is the strongest house remaining.

So if the North is back in the King's peace why can't Sansa claim her title? Why does it have to be Roose? He has no claim at all.

[Mourneblade]

So if the North is back in the King's peace why can't Sansa claim her title? Why does it have to be Roose? He has no claim at all.

....other than the King naming him Warden of the North....

[sanzor]

The flip side is that R+L=J is still a well kept secret 17 years on, or that the news that Tommen is an illegitimate bastard born of incest has been spread to every lord in westeros, and yet still, the Tyrells and Lannisters defend his legitimacy with the unanimous support of the Reach and the Westerlands. Sometimes, truth and justice mean F-all when it comes to power and consensus. Roose Bolton, in a position of power will deny those crimes as opportunistic lies and have the rumour mongers flayed. Roose in a position of weakness? Perhaps more of a problem, but I doubt he will stick around to answer to them.

your point about Merrett is a good one. Perhaps if a Stark consents to torturing Bolton or Frey men to extract a confession, then Roose would be sentenced, but only if he was in a position where he could be arrested without resistance- and I doubt that will ever come to pass.

Bolton is not a Tyrell in Dornish land. If anything, Stannis is the interloper, the Southerner, and he has been incredibly lucky so far given that he was going to march on the Dreadfort and had Roose's Karstark ruse rumbled for him. The Boltons have been hated for thousands of years, but they have always been strong enough to rebel against the Starks, kill many Starks and survive defeat intact. So the Tyrell in Dorne comparison does not work for me. The Boltons must be doing something right to get away with all their crimes unscathed and I think we are witnessing exactly why that happens- it's this vague unknowability of the crime committed by the ones left to judge for themelves, mixed in with division and fear from his fellow lords, clever protection and allocation of men making him too powerful to bring down entirely which explains a lot of it. I also think there is more to House Bolton than meets the eye, otherwise, they would not have the honour of being the Starks main antagonists for so many thousands of years, and yet still be surviving. Whether it is due to something magical, sacrificial, religious, or by surviving long enough for memories to fade, the irony is, the North does not remember because the North has forgotten everything about the old gods other than to pray to a tree. It forgot about the Others, the COTF, and Im sure as hell they will all forget about Roose Bolton and his vaguely suspicious involvement in someone else's crime with time. after all, the Boltons are known to have killed Starks and worn their skins, yet Ned and Robb both put a considerable degree of faith in him.

With winter nigh, the WW's about to bear down on the wall, and the North being the next stop, the motto of "the north remembers" is the biggest joke their is. They should be garrisoning the wall with Manderly's, Umbers, Karstarks etc, but alas...

:agree:

I totally agree.The thing with the North remembers..u nailed it son.I also think Bolton's got something out of the ordinary about them..to hold up for thousands of years.It was a thread or a theory some time ago that the Boltons are the ones that traditionally punish the Starks for their bad decisions etc,oathbreaking etc...

[Mad Monkey]

And how do you go about this... no Lord in the North can hope to "cut the head off" Roose, by themselves.... even if they are all united its tricky. You cannot fight the Iron Born, the Boltons, and the Freys without ending up like Robb, without some serious planning and uniting. It is not something that can be done overtly.

As soon as possible, I said. Obviously he has them over a barrel now, but that doesn't mean that they trust him or they will back him if his advantage ever goes away.

[Mourneblade]

As soon as possible, I said. Obviously he has them over a barrel now, but that doesn't mean that they trust him or they will back him if his advantage ever goes away.

I do not think they are idle by any means, so I agree there, but with most of those houses losing their leaders, as soon as possible, is not a soon as we like, and Roose knows this.

[Nittanian]

In ASOS Tywin tells Tyrion:

Lord Bolton will wed the girl to his bastard son. We shall allow the Dreadfort to fight the ironborn for a few years, and see if he can bring Stark's other bannermen to heel. Come spring, all of them should be at the end of their strength and ready to bend the knee. The north will go to your son by Sansa Stark ...

I interpret that Tywin planned to eventually strip the Warden title from Roose and grant it to the Tyrion/Sansa Lannister line, and the Boltons would be too exhausted from fighting the ironborn to oppose the Iron Throne.

[Mourneblade]

In ASOS Tywin tells Tyrion:

I interpret that Tywin planned to eventually strip the Warden title from Roose and grant it to the Tyrion/Sansa Lannister line, and the Boltons would be too exhausted from fighting the ironborn to oppose the Iron Throne.

I agree 100%, Roose also understood this though and was planning for it... plot and sub plot.

[Alia Atreides]

To quote Sirius Black, "I would have died. I would have died rather than betray my friends", in this case, "lords". Many people there died trying to protect Robb.

true and Roose if you were to sort him into a house would go into Slytherin for his pragmatism and cunning. Roose cares only about his own ass being covered his own life, he would throw his bastard to them along with anyone else if it will preserve his own life and House, as he has already proved.

I would so love to get a POV of him as we only have seen him through another's eyes.

[Alia Atreides]

I agree 100%, Roose also understood this though and was planning for it... plot and sub plot.

ack. I hadn't seen your post yep on that as well he is anticipating this which makes him both fascinating and frightening at the same time for me. Also, I do not think Roose cares in the end if he is hated. As has been said by people greater than myself as it is not my quote ;) " In choosing between hate and love, Hate is the more predictable of emotions. "

[The Fourth Head]

"Roose Bolton's cold and cunning, aye, but a man can deal with Roose. We've all known worse."

score! this was the quote I had been searching for, spoken by a Locke and explaining why I think the North doesn't fully appreciate his danger. It's a grudging mistrustful consent, not open personal hatred and blame.

[Mourneblade]

score! this was the quote I had been searching for, spoken by a Locke and explaining why I think the North doesn't fully appreciate his danger. It's a grudging mistrustful consent, not open personal hatred and blame.

I believe that before the Wedding that the remaining lords of the north were of varying opinions, some like this stated above, others with hate, and others not sure either way. However Roose bringing them together allows them to share thoughts and stories they have heard, and to conspire, something Roose had planned for. What Roose could not have planned for, or anyone for that matter, is Stannis, Jon, and the weather all coming together in a worst case Bolton scenario.

So we shall see how this shakes out after the Battle of Winterfell.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

The flip side is that R+L=J is still a well kept secret 17 years on, or that the news that Tommen is an illegitimate bastard born of incest has been spread to every lord in westeros, and yet still, the Tyrells and Lannisters defend his legitimacy with the unanimous support of the Reach and the Westerlands. Sometimes, truth and justice mean F-all when it comes to power and consensus.

About Jon, two people knew the truth of his parentage, Ned and Howland. You know the old saying, "two people can keep a secret, if one of them is dead"? Right.

As for the twincest, again, the number of people in the know was very limited, and yet as of now Cersei is officially accused of this crime. Now the number of people who knew firsthand is two, the perpetrators themselves, and they had all the reason in the world to keep their mouth shut. It got out. The Red Wedding, OTOH, had hundreds, if not thousands, eye witnesses.

Roose Bolton, in a position of power will deny those crimes as opportunistic lies and have the rumour mongers flayed.

Right. Are you familiar with the character of Standartenführer Stirlitz, Soviet spy from a TV show and a hero of numerous jokes?

Bormann and Muller having a coffee in Muller’s office. Stirlitz with a tray full of oranges walks in, puts the tray to the table, takes the secret documents from the vault and leaves.

Who was this one ? asks the stunned Bormann.

This one? Stirlitz -the Red Army’s best agent in Berlin, replies Muller

And why don’t you arrest him ??? asks Bormann

Muller frowns. Eh, he will wriggle out as always!.. Will say he brought us oranges!…

Roose's denial will work only in a joke setting.

Bolton is not a Tyrell in Dornish land. If anything, Stannis is the interloper, the Southerner, and he has been incredibly lucky so far given that he was going to march on the Dreadfort and had Roose's Karstark ruse rumbled for him. The Boltons have been hated for thousands of years, but they have always been strong enough to rebel against the Starks, kill many Starks and survive defeat intact. So the Tyrell in Dorne comparison does not work for me.

The Boltons must be doing something right to get away with all their crimes unscathed and I think we are witnessing exactly why that happens- it's this vague unknowability of the crime committed by the ones left to judge for themelves, mixed in with division and fear from his fellow lords, clever protection and allocation of men making him too powerful to bring down entirely which explains a lot of it.

Right now, they are exactly in the same position: the hated Iron Throne's designated ruler. Although Tyrell hadn't took part in anything remotely as outrageous as the Red Wedding, and Dorne really had to fear the Iron Throne's potential retaliation, so agreed, the analogy isn't perfect.

As for all your remarks about Stannis - I agree with them, but how's that relevant? He can slip on the way to the privy and break his neck tomorrow, Roose Bolton is still fucked.

Again, there's nothing vague in Roose Bolton's fault: he was an accomplice in the Red Wedding, everybody knows it, accolades from Tywin would be proof enough even if every single participator kept his mouth shut - which is pure fantasy. They already talked, and they will talk more. Did Hugo Wull sound as if he had any doubts? Or did he sound as if he wanted to bring Roose Bolton down by building a court case against him? OK, so there's no iron-clad proof. Guess what: it matters not. "I only brought oranges" will work only on those who want to believe that Stirlitz only brought oranges.

Did Wyman Manderly sound as if he believed that Stirlitz only brought oranges? "Roose Bolton lies about his part in the Red Wedding" - are those the words of someone who believes in Roose's explanations, whatever might they be? And, happy coincidence, Roose, or anybody else, doesn't have a single Manderly hostage.

I also think there is more to House Bolton than meets the eye, otherwise, they would not have the honour of being the Starks main antagonists for so many thousands of years, and yet still be surviving. Whether it is due to something magical, sacrificial, religious, or by surviving long enough for memories to fade, the irony is, the North does not remember because the North has forgotten everything about the old gods other than to pray to a tree. It forgot about the Others, the COTF, and Im sure as hell they will all forget about Roose Bolton and his vaguely suspicious involvement in someone else's crime with time. after all, the Boltons are known to have killed Starks and worn their skins, yet Ned and Robb both put a considerable degree of faith in him.

Centuries of loyal service, intertwined with a rebellion every once in a while. Hey, the Iron Throne let the Greyjoys get away with that, too, at least twice. And gods know there's nothing special, or even especially valuable, about the Greyjoys. Hell, even Mr. Ruthless himself, Tywin Lannister once said: "when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you". Granted, he wasn't good at practicing what he preached, but the principle is still sound.