Barristan Selmy... White Cloak of many Kings.

[league of blooDraven]

For all the good it did them and anybody else.

Unless they trusted rhaegar when he told them about the PtwP coming from aerys's line and that it was the only way to stave off the Long Night.

[Lord Damian]

Ser Barristan stood there and watched Cersei tare up Robert's will and userp the regency and threw Ned in the Black Cells. Ser Barristan knew Ned did not claim the throne for himself, he was there. Ser Barristan also owes Ned for saving his life from Roose Bolton at the Trident. I hope some day Ser Barristan pays Ned's memory back by saving one of his kids. Probably from Dany

[IRON BANK]

Lousy oathkeeper? Afraid of death? :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Barristan simply outlived his Kings. he served them faithfully as he could. What happened in RR is simply the natural thing. Barristan was wounded during the Trident and he couldn't have impacted what was going on in KL. After that, Robert became King and he was bound by his oath (that is the funny part about the OP) to serve him. KG doesn't choose the King, when the King changes, they swore the oaths to the new King. So, what Barristan did, when he became LC of Robert's Kingsguard was actually honoring his oaths. As for respecting Robert's will, do I need to remind you that Ned didn't write Joffrey's name, but the "rightful heir of the Throne" Barristan trusted Ned and his judgement regarding Lannisters (he shared the dislike, he didn't know the truth). Now, one can question his decision to go to Daenerys instead of Stannis. But, after Ned said what he said about Joffrey at Baelor's steps, and hom being discharged, he turned to the only thing he could have make his oaths fulfilled - Daenerys. Barristan is many things but lousy oathkeeper? Nope.

True: once again, quick and to the point (GREAT POST). Selmy IMHO is what a true knight presents, one of the few examples in ASOIAF.

[league of blooDraven]

Why would Barry be bound by an oath to Robert until he swore it? Esp in the case of a brutal overthrow of a long standing regime. Please cite where this is said in the text

[Oberyn2cool4Westeros]

I agree, he should've committed Seppuku instead of bending the knee to Robert.

[Mithras]

After Robert's Rebellion, he should have taken the black. Serving Robert and then Joffrey (with the Kingslayer as a brother all the while) stained his honor.

[Starspear]

After Robert's Rebellion, he should have taken the black. Serving Robert and then Joffrey (with the Kingslayer as a brother all the while) stained his honor.

And Selmy knows it too. He says as much.

[Mladen]

And Selmy knows it too. He says as much.

Self-assessment in Westeros is never reliable, If we are to trust it Cersei is extremely smart woman, right? Just like in Ned's case what they consider to be dishonorable may not be dishonorable at all.

[Mithras]

Self-assessment in Westeros is never reliable, If we are to trust it Cersei is extremely smart woman, right? Just like in Ned's case what they consider to be dishonorable may not be dishonorable at all.

Barristan was one of the people who urged Robert to send Jaime to the Wall. But he never thought of doing the same, especially after Kingslayer was pardonned.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that both Barristan and Robert were true steels. But even the truest steels rust if not taken care of properly.

The idiocy of Robert and Joffrey is not my concern. Barristan served Aerys after all and the KG do not choose their kings. But my point is that, the KL was sacked treacherously and the royalty he was sworn to protect was murdered ruthlessly. Worse, Robert rewarded the Lannisters for doing the dirty shit for him. Ned was closer than a brother to Robert but they nearly went fist-to-fist against each other because of this.

Barristan should not have served Robert after this and the only place he could go was the Wall. I think had he acted like this, Ned might have trusted him with Jon's secret at a certain point (maybe he would come to Robert's feast and Ned would tell him in Winterfell)

[Winterfell is Burning]

Ned gave them a chance to do what Barristan did and they refused and died. So yea, different choice and better oath keepers.

They were sitting out of the war without telling their king where they were.

Meanwhile, Barristan was leading troops for nearly the entire war and almost died fighting. Which of them did more for the Targaryen cause?

Also, none of them were seriously injured and had their lives spared by Robert's generosity, so you can't compare Ned's offer to what happened to Barristan.

We also don't know what would be Barristan's reaction if he was the one sitting pretty guarding Rhaegar's (presumedly) legitimate son.

[Mladen]

True: once again, quick and to the point (GREAT POST). Selmy IMHO is what a true knight presents, one of the few examples in ASOIAF.

Thank you... Barristan, IMHO, has some other issues to solve, but I think his honor is not one of them.

Barristan was one of the people who urged Robert to send Jaime to the Wall. But he never thought of doing the same, especially after Kingslayer was pardonned.

That is incomparable. Barristan urged Robert to send Jaime to the Wall, because Jaime killed his King, thus truly being an oath breaker. He didn't say Robert "send him to the Wall because he was Aerys' KG" Barristan is not hypocritical, no matter how you spin it.

The idiocy of Robert and Joffrey is not my concern. Barristan served Aerys after all and the KG do not choose their kings. But my point is that, the KL was sacked treacherously and the royalty he was sworn to protect was murdered ruthlessly. Worse, Robert rewarded the Lannisters for doing the dirty shit for him. Ned was closer than a brother to Robert but they nearly went fist-to-fist against each other because of this.

Barristan should not have served Robert after this and the only place he could go was the Wall. I think had he acted like this, Ned might have trusted him with Jon's secret at a certain point (maybe he would come to Robert's feast and Ned would tell him in Winterfell)

And you don't think that Barristan wasn't responding to Aerys and Elia's murders. You already pointed out that Barristan urged Robert to send Jaime to the Wall. What is that if not reaction to what has been done to Targaryens? He couldn't have punished Tywin nor his men, but just like Ned, he reacted. It was pointless but he reacted.

Ned trusted Barristan, and it was plainly said in the books. Arguing that is plainly wrong. He couldn't have said anything to Barristan because Selmy was the KG and he knew how he would reacted:

Eddard Stark allowed himself a curse. Aside from his own retainers, there was scarcely a man in this city he trusted. Littlefinger had concealed Catelyn and helped Ned in his inquiries, yet his haste to save his own skin when Jaime and his swords had come out of the rain still rankled. Varys was worse. For all his protestations of loyalty, the eunuch knew too much and did too little. Grand Maester Pycelle seemed more Cersei’s creature with every passing day, and Ser Barristan was an old man, and rigid. He would tell Ned to do his duty.

So, Ned did trust him and considered him as a true knight:

“Even the truest knight cannot protect a king against himself,” Ned said. “Robert loved to hunt boar. I have seen him take a thousand of them.”

But, he also knew who Barristan was, a knight of the Kingsguard:

And as it happens, he is of age, Ned reflected, but he did not give voice to the thought. He trusted neither Pycelle nor Varys, and Ser Barristan was honor-bound to protect and defend the boy he thought his new king. The old knight would not abandon Joffrey easily. The need for deceit was a bitter taste in his mouth, but Ned knew he must tread softly here, must keep his counsel and play the game until he was firmly established as regent.

They were sitting out of the war without telling their king where they were.

We also don't know what would be Barristan's reaction if he was the one sitting pretty guarding Rhaegar's (presumedly) legitimate son.

Shall we mention that Whent probably was involved in whatever Rhaegar planned for Tourney at Harrenhal and that Arthur was his best friend? When we speak about their grand honor...

[league of blooDraven]

They were sitting out of the war without telling their king where they were.

Meanwhile, Barristan was leading troops for nearly the entire war and almost died fighting. Which of them did more for the Targaryen cause?

Also, none of them were seriously injured and had their lives spared by Robert's generosity, so you can't compare Ned's offer to what happened to Barristan.

We also don't know what would be Barristan's reaction if he was the one sitting pretty guarding Rhaegar's (presumedly) legitimate son.

You have no idea what aerys knew

I never said anything about who did more for the targaryen dynasty. Not one thing. But yea, you're right it was Barry IMO as well, he just didn't follow through on his vows. He didn't die well, he played the game of thrones.

Having your life spared when injured as opposed to having it spared when you're healthy? The same thing? No. Comparable? Yes

You're right, we don't.

[Winterfell is Burning]

You have no idea what aerys knew

Are you seriously trying to imply Aerys knew where Lyanna was hidden? And he wouldn't take her to KL and use her as a hostage against Robert, Ned AND Rhaegar? Really?

[Mithras]

That is incomparable. Barristan urged Robert to send Jaime to the Wall, because Jaime killed his King, thus truly being an oath breaker. He didn't say Robert "send him to the Wall because he was Aerys' KG" Barristan is not hypocritical, no matter how you spin it.

I think there is a misunderstanding because that was what I was trying to say. Jaime broke his vows and both Ned and Barristan urged Robert to send him to the Wall because of oathbreaking. I am not arguing that Barristan is hypocritical. He is an honest man but his minds works for only one thing he knows best. He was not able to come to his senses until he was slapped by Joffrey. And that is why his honor was hurt because of serving a drunkard and a madman. If he were brighter, he would spend the rest of his days at the Wall and his pages in the White Book would not end like it does.

And you don't think that Barristan wasn't responding to Aerys and Elia's murders. You already pointed out that Barristan urged Robert to send Jaime to the Wall. What is that if not reaction to what has been done to Targaryens? He couldn't have punished Tywin nor his men, but just like Ned, he reacted. It was pointless but he reacted.

Ned trusted Barristan, and it was plainly said in the books. Arguing that is plainly wrong. He couldn't have said anything to Barristan because Selmy was the KG and he knew how he would reacted:

But he also saw that his reaction backfired. What did Ned do after getting the same answer from Robert? He removed himself from the south, spoke a silent FU and returned to his home. A bright man would take a lesson from him.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Very lousy oathkeeper. Ridiculously shameful to bend the knee to Robert, but continuing to serve him? Total disgrace. He should've gone to the Wall or something like that.

Then Joffrey doesn't want him anymore and he goes to Dany. Another betrayal.

We're not talking about a free man changing allegiances. He's a freaking KG!

What's next? Leaving Dany for Aegon because Ashara is with him?

[Stormland's Fury]

Great swordsman, but lousy oathkeeper? Afraid of death? Why, Barristan?

Why didn't he join Renly (or his Kingsguard)? He's the first knight of Kingsguard who got dismissed so he would probably revert to being a Stormlord or at least be under obligation to join whoever family member is holding Harvest Hall. Instead he just skips to Essos.

While it's admirable that he wants to help the last Targaryen, from an oath keeping standpoint it makes no sense, especially since he would keep the next best oath and be able to dispose those who brought shame upon him (and want him dead). For someone who is considered strictly honorable he's very lax about the whole loyalty thing.

[juanml82]

And you don't think that Barristan wasn't responding to Aerys and Elia's murders. You already pointed out that Barristan urged Robert to send Jaime to the Wall. What is that if not reaction to what has been done to Targaryens? He couldn't have punished Tywin nor his men, but just like Ned, he reacted. It was pointless but he reacted.

Of course he could. He kills them, sail to Braavos and presents King Viserys, the third of his name, with the heads of the Usurper and at least some of his dogs.

[Lord Reaver]

Very lousy oathkeeper. Ridiculously shameful to bend the knee to Robert, but continuing to serve him? Total disgrace. He should've gone to the Wall or something like that.

Barristan didn't bend the knee to anyone. He met Robert at the Trident, remember ? What he did was accept the position of Kingsguard after Robert had become king after Aerys. He served the 7k by protecting the King before and during the rebellion, and he continued doing so after it. Nobody in-world holds this against him (Eddard Stark included), I see no reason why we should.

Then Joffrey doesn't want him anymore and he goes to Dany. Another betrayal.

A betrayal yes, but not the one you seem to think it is. Joffrey betrayed Barristan by dismissing him from the KG, something never done before. Not to mention Joff tries to kill him afterwards.

We're not talking about a free man changing allegiances. He's a freaking KG!

Nope. Once Joffrey dismissed him, he was no longer KG, and he was indeed free to change his allegiance (as much as any other lord in Westeros).

[Roxy Carmichael]

Why didn't he join Renly (or his Kingsguard)? He's the first knight of Kingsguard who got dismissed so he would probably revert to being a Stormlord or at least be under obligation to join whoever family member is holding Harvest Hall. Instead he just skips to Essos.

While it's admirable that he wants to help the last Targaryen, from an oath keeping standpoint it makes no sense, especially since he would keep the next best oath and be able to dispose those who brought shame upon him (and want him dead). For someone who is considered strictly honorable he's very lax about the whole loyalty thing.

He considered returning to his cousins at Harvest Hall, but didn't wan't bring Joff's anger down on them. I don't think he cares so much about the Lannisters or Baratheons, he feels an obligation to serve Dany and earn back some of his honor by guarding the last Targaryen.

[Stormland's Fury]

He considered returning to his cousins at Harvest Hall, but didn't wan't bring Joff's anger down on them. I don't think he cares so much about the Lannisters or Baratheons, he feels an obligation to serve Dany and earn back some of his honor by guarding the last Targaryen.

Forgot that one. But he had no qualms about serving the Baratheons or the Lannisters as soon as the Targaryens were disposed, so I'm not sure where his change of heart came from.