Obsidious Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 No, definitely not. Leaf tells Bran that Coldhands "died long ago." Given that the CotF live for hundreds of years, I think it's safe to say that Coldhands is most definitely not Benjen. A few years wouldn't be "long ago" to her. Right, I've heard that one, but I assumed that maybe "died long ago" could mean something other than literal present death. Concerning Leaf's magical knowledge, maybe she knows the fate of what's to come. In joining the group that swears their lives to defending the realm, and knowing that the Night's Watch will crumble under the assault of the Others, maybe she sees the Night's Watch oath as a death wish, making "died long ago" go back farther for Benjen than just a couple years, to the start of his sworn service. Which I know is STILL a small amount of time for someone over 200, but even so, it helps (if only slightly) the theory of Benjen = Coldhands. Plus I like to stretch, otherwise I get all "cramped up". :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caerl Targaryen Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Right, I've heard that one, but I assumed that maybe "died long ago" could mean something other than literal present death. Concerning Leaf's magical knowledge, maybe she knows the fate of what's to come. In joining the group that swears their lives to defending the realm, and knowing that the Night's Watch will crumble under the assault of the Others, maybe she sees the Night's Watch oath as a death wish, making "died long ago" go back farther for Benjen than just a couple years, to the start of his sworn service. Which I know is STILL a small amount of time for someone over 200, but even so, it helps (if only slightly) the theory of Benjen = Coldhands. Plus I like to stretch, otherwise I get all "cramped up". :lol:Well, I don't know for certain that Leaf's "died long ago" comment rules out Coldhands as Benjen. Based on what we know about the CotF and how GRRM has gone out of his way to make sure we know that they live a really long time (Leaf in particular is at least 200), I think we can safely assume that "died long ago" means a lot longer than 2 years from Leaf's perspective. I suppose we could stretch things a little and say that 2 years is "long ago" from Bran's perspective. 2 years is a long time for a 9 year old. However, I do think that's stretching the facts to fit the theory instead of the other way around. I used to think Coldhands was Benjen as well. But that was before ADWD came out and we ended up with Leaf's comment about him dying "long ago." I was a bit disappointed with that line simply because I really wanted him to be Benjen as I thought that would be a cool and interesting twist. That said, I think making him even older than that is ultimately the better decision as it adds a sense of mystery and depth to the subplot. His ultimate identity may not even matter beyond being an ex-member of the NW. Knowing GRRM, though, Coldhands identity will matter (to some extent) in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maege Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 /spoiler/ Because HBO messed up and leaked that the goofy horned WW at the end of one of the episodes was the NK, then retracted the posting about ten mins later, but not before a WHOLE BUNCH of people got screencaps of it. Sooooooo, by this we are lead to believe that the NK is the leader, he was the one who changed the baby, and he was the center point of that circle of 13...... I tried the spoiler thing anyways.......... Also the cast list on IMDB mentions Night's King. He sure looked like the leader. The only question now is if NK is a title or the same character in Old Nan's story. Either way, the old stories gain credibility just by verifying NK's existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inc4 Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 It could be the Great Other!! The term "Other" is totally skipped in the TV show and so the term "The Great Other" could not be used. Instead they might have settled with "The Night's King" since it has a ring to it. It may not be the Night's King from the books (LC of NW) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordar Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 http://grrm.livejournal.com/368755.html#comments http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2014/05/02/george-r-r-martin-addresses-game-of-thrones-spoilers/ May. 1st, 2014 10:14 pm (UTC)no spoilers book readers?!Speaking of TV show and book readers, you got any comments on The Night's King incident or THAT scene in last episode. I don't know if you have any power over producers but please, do not let THEM spoil the books, while everyone is so focused on us readers spoiling TV viewers.Link | Frozen | Thread grrm May. 1st, 2014 10:51 pm (UTC)Re: no spoilers book readers?!How do you define "spoiler?"If something happens on the show before it happens in the book, I suppose one could call that a spoiler.If something happens on the show, but happens very differently in the books, is that still a spoiler?If something happens on the show, but never happens in books, what precisely was spoiled?And how many children did Scarlett O'Hara have, anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caerl Targaryen Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 http://grrm.livejournal.com/368755.html#comments http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2014/05/02/george-r-r-martin-addresses-game-of-thrones-spoilers/Good grief. He couldn't have been more intentionally vague if he tried! :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maege Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 It could be the Great Other!! The term "Other" is totally skipped in the TV show and so the term "The Great Other" could not be used. Instead they might have settled with "The Night's King" since it has a ring to it. It may not be the Night's King from the books (LC of NW) I don't think the show needs to consolidate characters that appear for the first time with the ones that aren't yet resolved in the books. Why would they call "the Great Other", "Night's King" instead? Why not "Keyser Soze"? Also, there is no "the" in Night's King. Neither in the books nor in the synopsis/cast list, which leads me to believe that it's a title rather than a character (e.g. LC of NW). That closes the 8,000 year or so gap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jet199 Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 It could be the Great Other!! The term "Other" is totally skipped in the TV show and so the term "The Great Other" could not be used. Instead they might have settled with "The Night's King" since it has a ring to it. It may not be the Night's King from the books (LC of NW)The great other is a god like R'hllor not an Other or a person. Night's King on the show had 13 guys with him which is a number associated with NK and LH. Another clue some one found is show!NK had a very similar costume to the one a show!Ned wore in season 1 but in black. This indicates the Stark/NK link Old Nan suggests.What's Night's King's next move? I predict he will move slightly less than Dany did in the last book. I think GRRM will hold off revealing the Others until ADOS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inc4 Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Well, the show knows some part of the book-storyline. They may know that Night's King role doesn't appear anywhere but Old Nan's stories. So they might have chosen the name. Just a speculation, guys!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caerl Targaryen Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 I don't think the show needs to consolidate characters that appear for the first time with the ones that aren't yet resolved in the books. Why would they call "the Great Other", "Night's King" instead? Why not "Keyser Soze"? Also, there is no "the" in Night's King. Neither in the books nor in the synopsis/cast list, which leads me to believe that it's a title rather than a character (e.g. LC of NW). That closes the 8,000 year or so gap.Well, according to the legend, the Night's King was a very specific Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. So in that sense, there's "the" Night's King. I think the assumption by a lot of readers is that like other legendary people from the Age of Heroes (such as Bran the Builder), he was a unique individual. But that's problematic for a few reasons. For starters, it's a legend. Legends often have elements of truth but over time they evolve, get embellished, have lessons embedded in them, and ultimately don't accurately resemble exactly what happened. I've made the mistake of treating the Night's King story as an accurate historical account, and I think that's a big mistake because it isn't intended to be that. There are no written records from the Age of Heroes. Everything about that period of time has been passed down generation after generation in the form of stories and songs. Fairy tale may be more accurate in the case of such an old story. If we assume that the legend isn't an accurate historical account, and was embellished and changed over time like all good oral stories, it still provides important information and teaches lessons to future generations that hear it, especially those that are in the NW. 1) Don't break the oath of the NW or you'll "lose your soul." 2) Don't get involved in the politics of the realm. 3) The wildlings can be dangerous but even they are an ally against the true enemy: the Others. 4) Don't have sex with the Others as no good will come from that.* * If someone in Westeros really needs that explained to them they are beyond hope... This is a long-winded way of saying there's absolutely no reason why "Night's King" can't be a title and a legend about a specific LC that first took on that title. What's Night's King's next move? I predict he will move slightly less than Dany did in the last book. I think GRRM will hold off revealing the Others until ADOS.That seems unlikely. If any book has a title that indicates that the Others are finally making their move, it's TWOW. Plus, they started a rather large attack near the end of ADWD. GRRM has also said we should be seeing a lot more of the Others in the next book. Of course, being as vague as ever, he didn't elaborate on that. It's possible we'll just literally be seeing the Others, which isn't exactly new. This would especially be the case if they begin their attack or destroy the Wall. I suspect the biggest reveals about them won't be happening until late in TWOW or sometime in ADOS. Well, the show knows some part of the book-storyline. They may know that Night's King role doesn't appear anywhere but Old Nan's stories. So they might have chosen the name.That's a conclusion that not many people seem to be arriving at for some reason. The assumption is that D&D know where the story is going and therefore something big like that has to be a part of GRRM's master plan. The problem with that assumption is the exact opposite could also be true. It means they know where he won't be going as well. In other words, it allows them to invent material that's consistent with, doesn't contradict, and doesn't actually spoil the endgame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titanx5 Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Just because you are defeated doesnt mean you are gone, in LOTR Sauron was believed to be killed twice during the downing/destruction of Numenor and on the slopes of Mount Doom. So yes maybe the Nights King was killed but raised up fr the dead into a full WW, and wishes to destroy the North of what they did to him, kinda gives the WW motive in a way. However even though this could be a spoiler I will reserve judgement of whether this is indeed the Nights King until WOW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inc4 Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 wishes to destroy the North of what they did to him, kinda gives the WW motive in a way. We still don't know what exactly were the motives on their first attack 8000 yrs ago. It's unlikely that their motives are gonna be as simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caerl Targaryen Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Given how much GRRM has spoken out against fantasy including a Dark Lord or Evil Wizard or something along those lines, it would be insanely disappointing and hypocritical if he ended up having a singular, clearly evil villain for a fantasy series that was intended to go against those fantasy clichés. I have to agree with Inc4 that the motives of the Others probably aren't nearly that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewton Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 No, definitely not. Leaf tells Bran that Coldhands "died long ago." Given that the CotF live for hundreds of years, I think it's safe to say that Coldhands is most definitely not Benjen. A few years wouldn't be "long ago" to her. But then again, even to someone who lives for hundreds of years a couple years might a long time for someone to be hanging around after dying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caerl Targaryen Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 But then again, even to someone who lives for hundreds of years a couple years might a long time for someone to be hanging around after dying.Hmm. I'm not sure if that's reading too much into what Leaf said or if that's a rather clever interpretation. I'm going to go with clever interpretation because it gives me hope that Benjen may actually still be relevant to the story. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maege Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Here's an idea: would the CoTF have animosity toward the NW? would joining the NW in their eyes be the same as death? and if so, is that why Benjen "died" a long time ago?I'm not 100% sold on Benjen = CH (specially if CH is out of the show). But like you said, I want Benjen to be relevant, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 /spoiler/ Because HBO messed up and leaked that the goofy horned WW at the end of one of the episodes was the NK, then retracted the posting about ten mins later, but not before a WHOLE BUNCH of people got screencaps of it. Sooooooo, by this we are lead to believe that the NK is the leader, he was the one who changed the baby, and he was the center point of that circle of 13...... I tried the spoiler thing anyways.......... You need to use brackets [ spoiler ] and then [ /spoiler ] but with the spaces removed. HBO also said that was a mistake. Could have been a staff member adding 2+2 and getting 5. Putting up his or her own conjecture rather than the facts. Gerold Dayne is the night's king. His next move is stealing Dawn from Starfall and saying a few one-liners.I support this idea. I'm not saying he has to be dead. Just that the legend implies that the combined attack against him put an end to whatever he was doing. If he was still alive, why would he wait over 8000 years to strike back? Well it took him a while to build up his army. He's not really an Other so he can't use their army. He had to come up with his own. Some rogue Others are probably helping him, but NK is pretty much on his own here. It's a grudge thing, and I'm not sure the Others like NK anymore than we do after he stole their princess (conjecture by me) and took her south of the Wall where they couldn't get her back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 http://grrm.livejournal.com/368755.html#comments http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2014/05/02/george-r-r-martin-addresses-game-of-thrones-spoilers/ Scarlett had three children. They left two out of the movie. I see his point there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gash Posted May 10, 2014 Author Share Posted May 10, 2014 And this proves what about the books exactly?In the books, it seems likely that the Night's King has been dead for over 8000 years. The legend states that he was defeated by the King in the North and the King-beyond-the-Wall. To me, "defeated" means "killed." It doesn't mean "ran off to fight another day."No, definitely not. Leaf tells Bran that Coldhands "died long ago." Given that the CotF live for hundreds of years, I think it's safe to say that Coldhands is most definitely not Benjen. A few years wouldn't be "long ago" to her. he's not alive. he's a zombie white walker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Who was defeated and slain with his bride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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