joluoto2 Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 The Freys had a reason to turn cloak (Robbe breaking his deal), but they had no reason to do it the way they did.What does worst turncloak mean? If it means who turned their cloak Ãn worst possible way, then certainly Team Frey- Bolton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Did the Freys even technically turn the cloak? They are a Riverland house who constantly insisted to be neutral, then they got drawn into the whole Northern independence mess by being payed to do so (they had no obligation to House Stark at that point, a Tully being married to one doesn't really matter to them). And after they provided everything they were supposed to, they never got what they paid for on top of that. The Red Wedding was a dick move, but they never betrayed Robb. If anything they betrayed Edmure but they found a loophole through marrying him to a Frey and trying to produce a Tully heir (for some reason). The Boltons betrayed their liege lord and king (they are the turn cloaks) and the Lannisters were eliminating an enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Tyrells and Freys: two upjumped and ambitious Houses who broke the guest right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted May 14, 2014 Author Share Posted May 14, 2014 Did the Freys even technically turn the cloak? They are a Riverland house who constantly insisted to be neutral, then they got drawn into the whole Northern independence mess by being payed to do so (they had no obligation to House Stark at that point, a Tully being married to one doesn't really matter to them). And after they provided everything they were supposed to, they never got what they paid for on top of that. The Red Wedding was a dick move, but they never betrayed Robb. If anything they betrayed Edmure but they found a loophole through marrying him to a Frey and trying to produce a Tully heir (for some reason). The Boltons betrayed their liege lord and king (they are the turn cloaks) and the Lannisters were eliminating an enemy.This Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadwood Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 The Riverlords (Ed as chief) had accepted Robb as king. So yes the Freys turned.As well as turning against the Gods, an even larger crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 The Riverlords (Ed as chief) had accepted Robb as king. So yes the Freys turned. As well as turning against the Gods, an even larger crime. Under the promise that they get a queen, which they didn't get. A contract goes both ways. Violating the guest right is heresy, not treason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost's Shadow Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Robb was not king then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourneblade Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 The Tyrells ain't no turncloaks! What they did is not technically the definition of "turncloak". They just changed sides only after their king died and chose the most advantageous side. The biggest turncloaks are the Freys and the Boltons who are literally in no one's allegiance but their own. If you're going to go even further than that, most sellswords and sellsword companies. The Tyrells did that twice, They turned their cloak for Renly, then turned their cloak back, and all signs point to them doing it again lol. That being said it is the Freys hands down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted May 14, 2014 Author Share Posted May 14, 2014 The Tyrells did that twice, They turned their clock for Renly, then turned their cloak back, and all signs point to them doing it again lol. That being said it is the Freys hands down.Who did turn their cloak to join Renly? And again how could they turn their cloak when Renly was dead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourneblade Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Who did turn their cloak to join Renly? And again how could they turn their cloak when Renly was dead? They flipped sides to join Renly, once Renly was dead they flipped sides back to the crown.... 1+1 = 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted May 14, 2014 Author Share Posted May 14, 2014 They flipped sides to join Renly, once Renly was dead they flipped sides back to the crown.... 1+1 = 2They serving no one at the time Robert died, and no when Renly died, that is not flipping, but being a free agent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Robb was not king then. Yeah, still they didn't get neither Robb (who became king) nor Arya. Those two were the biggest contributors to Walder agreeing and those were also the ones who would have bound the Freys to the North in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 They serving no one at the time Robert died, and no when Renly died, that is not flipping, but being a free agent. Not serving anyone at that point is still treason though. They didn't know about the incest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted May 14, 2014 Author Share Posted May 14, 2014 Not serving anyone at that point is still treason though. They didn't know about the incest.Okay, that is a good one flip I count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourneblade Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 They serving no one at the time Robert died, and no when Renly died, that is not flipping, but being a free agent. Margery was Queen under Renly, They could have rallied around her, the same way the Blackfish did with Jayne, but instead they turned their cloaks back to the crown. but hey if you want to argue semantics be my guest. I was participating in your thread to offer my opinion, not to split hairs on the meaning of loyalty and cloak turning to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted May 14, 2014 Author Share Posted May 14, 2014 Margery was Queen under Renly, They could have rallied around her, the same way the Blackfish did with Jayne, but instead they turned their cloaks back to the crown. but hey if you want to argue semantics be my guest. I was participating in your thread to offer my opinion, not to split hairs on the meaning of loyalty and cloak turning to begin with. Your opinion your opinion, I will not challenge it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadwood Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Under the promise that they get a queen, which they didn't get. A contract goes both ways. Violating the guest right is heresy, not treason. That was to cross the river and get the men. As a poster says, Robb was not King then. I don't think Hoster Tully had joined to. After Hoster joined, then by the system the Freys were under the Starks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the conquoring bastard25 Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Who did turn their cloak to join Renly? And again how could they turn their cloak when Renly was dead? The Tyrells turned their cloaks because their allegiance should have been to Joffery after Robert dies, but instead they decided to be come kingmakers and crown Renly, that's high treason. Then when Renly is dead instead they pledge their swords where they should have been in the first place with Joffery only so long as Marg gets to be queen. Yet they kill Joff so they would have a more tracetable king in Tommen. Yet again, I don't see them sticking with Tommen for much longer, as Aegon is home and I think he's going to want his palace and throne back. So if the Tyrells are smart they are going to turn their cloaks again and bend the knee to Aegon sixth of his name all hail King Aegon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted May 14, 2014 Author Share Posted May 14, 2014 The Tyrells turned their cloaks because their allegiance should have been to Joffery after Robert dies, but instead they decided to be come kingmakers and crown Renly, that's high treason. Then when Renly is dead instead they pledge their swords where they should have been in the first place with Joffery only so long as Marg gets to be queen. Yet they kill Joff so they would have a more tracetable king in Tommen. Yet again, I don't see them sticking with Tommen for much longer, as Aegon is home and I think he's going to want his palace and throne back. So if the Tyrells are smart they are going to turn their cloaks again and bend the knee to Aegon sixth of his name all hail King Aegon. I see that more practical then turn cloak, but I guess they can two sides of the same coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladysnowheart Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 most turncloak of them all: lord walder frey, followed by theon greyjoy. my humble opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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