(BEWARE SPOILERS) "...A Thousand Lying Whores..."

[rocksniffer]

I don't necessarily think so. Shae had been feeling neglected by Tyrion for awhile now, due to his recent lack of interest in sex with her, and I think this kind of rejection was something she had started to fear. She was a common whore who suddenly found herself with a royal life. It would be natural for her to be paranoid that it was too good to be true, after a life of being made promises by men who just wanted to use her. I don't think, given Tyrion's recent ambiguous behavior towards her, it would be natural for her to come to the conclusion that he was doing it out of love. Its only natural for US to come to that conclusion because we are shown the dialogue with other people regarding his true feelings for her. But from her viewpoint, I think it's reasonable that she felt she had been genuinely rejected.

rejected perhaps, but she surely knew her words of support would have been disbelieved and now that she must assume he is doomed she has to cast her lot with another powerful man if she wants to keep her royal life...let's see who show-Shae will find.... :smoking:

[Mr Smith]

OK its going to take me a while to calm down from probably the greatest twenty minutes of Game of Thrones to date, but I'm going to try, and put forward rational arguments defending the choices made in these critical scenes.

Shae - I'm very happy with what they've done. I know some are suggesting such retaliation is unrealistic because she should have been smart enough to know why Tyrion rejected her, but for everything the writers have done wrong with Shae, they have made it clear that she isn't very smart. Tyrion repeatedly warns her of danger, and she is completely heedless and utterly reckless. She's never met Cersei or Tywin, she's never been on the end of their ruthlessness, its not really implausible that she wouldn't take the threat seriously. I'll be interested to see if any explanation is given as to how Shae got from "on a ship to Essos" to standing in a witness box; they sort of need to give more of an explanation than they did in the book.

Jaime and Tywin - Excellent stuff. Made things a lot more real, and made it look less like Tywin was outright rooting for Tyrion's execution, a path which I was worried they would go down. Great acting from both throughout, with Jaime's constant inner conflict and Tywin's smug "I know what I'm doing and I'm in control" charisma.

The Murder Weapon - Bringing the necklace back was the one low point in the trial. I get that they wanted to give Margaery a moment to struggle with her conscience, but I would have preferred they just say it was one of the poison's from Pycelle's stock, and show just how far of the mark they are about who their enemies are. It also seems implausible that Littlefinger would leave a loose end like that.

The Varys Moment - Another great little addition. Very much in tune with both characters, and appropriate to provide cushion for the fact that Tyrion and Varys have been much closer in the show than in the book.

Very pleased they kept the majority of the book dialogue.

The acting all round was absolutely SUPERB.

Well done D & D!

[Newstar]

Another thing that bugs me about Shae selling out Sansa at length is that not only did the show make a big deal out of Shae's love for Sansa, but while she was clearly souring on Tyrion and feeling increasingly resentful towards him, she not once showed anything but affection for Sansa after the marriage and never seemed to direct her anger about the marriage towards her. She was clearly concerned in 4x01 that Sansa was not eating. So it's a big mystery that the show just had Shae sell out Sansa with no other apparent motive--again, absent coercion--than jealousy, since she'd never taken out her jealousy on Sansa before.

[Dragon of Valyria]

It's a problem with their whole portrayal of Shae -- you can understand the betrayal of the rather more mercenary Shae of the books, but the betrayal of this Shae seems far more out of left field and certainly out of character as it's been presented to us.

[Seneti]

It was interesting how the bit with TV Shae was left ambiguous. She did seem genuinely nervous. Was she coerced? Did she act out of mercenary concerns? Out of spite? Was her testimony bought, or forced? Was she just putting on a good show of being scared, to make her story more convincing? As with the PW and with the RW on the show, we might get explanations after the fact making it very clear what TV Shae's deal was, why she did what she did, and who if anyone was behind her testimony.

I did like Jaime trying to make a deal to save Tyrion's life (and Tywin smugly quaffing his wine afterwards as Jaime had no doubt played right into his hands). PD's being praised for the episode and rightly so, but NCW was fantastic.

I agree on both those points. Shae looked vaguely uncomfortable throughout the entire scene - was she scared? Angry? Spiteful? I'll be happy to see the outcome of this. And Jaime offering his position as a KG in trade for Tyrion's life just made me go "dawwww". Here's two people who - so far - truly love and support each other (Jaime and Tyrion), which is a rare enough occurence in GoT.

TV Shae was also dressed very nicely in her scene in 4x06. She seemed to be wearing a dead ringer for one of Sansa's old gowns, and she was wearing a pretty little gold necklace that she wasn't wearing before. Maybe this was a bit of a visual tipoff that TV Shae was profiting from her testimony.

Wow, and here I was thinking that this was just my imagination! Seems Shae inherited Sansa's wardrobe as a reward for her testimony.

[Envie]

It's a problem with their whole portrayal of Shae -- you can understand the betrayal of the rather more mercenary Shae of the books, but the betrayal of this Shae seems far more out of left field and certainly out of character as it's been presented to us.

Yes it very much does seem further out in left field on the show as they've portrayed Shae in relation to her concern and care for Sansa which did not exist in the book. That is why I think most viewers will believe Shae has been coerced into her testimony. She certainly behaved genuinely scared and nervous enough to have been coerced along with the pointed looks she got from both Cersei and Tywin.

Then again that may just be what they're trying to get us to believe to build up to the ultimate betrayal just before dear Tywin feels the need to visit the privy.

[Newstar]

I don't mind Shae turning on Tyrion out of spite and jealousy without being coerced--she'd been showing resentment and paranoia over their relationship as early as 3x02, so the signs were definitely there--but turning on Sansa, at least given how they've written TV Shae's feelings towards Sansa, which were always warm and loving no matter how pissed she was at Tyrion over the marriage, makes no sense absent coercion.

Wow, and here I was thinking that this was just my imagination! Seems Shae inherited Sansa's wardrobe as a reward for her testimony.

Not your imagination. The fact that she was wearing anything different at all jumped out at me since Shae's been wearing more or less the same outfit since the start of Season 2, and what made it even stranger is that the handmaidens in the show have a specific "uniform" (the halter dress Shae's been wearing), that's very different from the kimono-type gowns with metallic belts the highborn women wear, of the type Sansa wore in Season 2 and in Season 3. I think that was a very deliberate change, along with the pretty necklace Shae was wearing.

[Pib_Juju]

I thought Shae's scene in the trial made the whole decision to make her more of a sympathetic love-interest on the show seem an even bigger mistake then ever.

In the books she turns on Tyrion for some petty, material gain. That's the sort of thing that could make a person in Tyrion's position just sick with humanity in general.

In the show, she's more of an angry, rejected lover, taking revenge on the man who turned her out. Far less compelling-- not to mention less believable.

[Newstar]

I'm guessing the show will clarify TV Shae's motivations when Tyrion confronts her in (I assume) 4x10, although if I had to guess, her explanation to Tyrion will be "Because fuck you, that's why."

[HouseHarrison]

Humiliating and seeking revenge on Tyrion for rejecting her is one thing, but throwing Sansa, the girl she once said she would kill for, under the bus as well? Not cool (assuming no coercion).

Shae's a shameless bitch. It's good the show actually is going back to the characters roots in the book. Throwing anyone under the bus for the right price is exactly what GRRM's version of the character would do.

[Envie]

Not your imagination. The fact that she was wearing anything different at all jumped out at me since Shae's been wearing more or less the same outfit since the start of Season 2, and what made it even stranger is that the handmaidens in the show have a specific "uniform" (the halter dress Shae's been wearing), that's very different from the kimono-type gowns with metallic belts the highborn women wear, of the type Sansa wore in Season 2 and in Season 3. I think that was a very deliberate change, along with the pretty necklace Shae was wearing.

I also noticed the outfit she was wearing - it seemed too big for her. I could almost swear that was meant to be Sansa's clothing she was wearing and didn't Sansa wear a necklace just like that from previous seasons / episodes? We should comb back through old footage to see... major clue there if she's wearing Sansa's stuff...

Also, on the topic of necklaces - I freaking KNEW when Littlefinger threw the necklace back on Dontos' dead body that it would be found and that was done purposely... they've played up the whole Sansa scapegoat angle way way too much for my liking personally. It wasn't that obvious in the books but they always seem to feel the need to bash us over the head. In the book it was merely implied perhaps Littlefinger set it up to look like Sansa was partially to blame and a possible accomplice with Tyrion once she disappears. I just don't buy it that Littlefinger would leave a loose end like that necklace and Dontos dead body for them to find. I really don't think it's that easily believable.

[Newstar]

Shae's a shameless bitch. It's good the show actually is going back to the characters roots in the book. Throwing anyone under the bus for the right price is exactly what GRRM's version of the character would do.

Well, sure, but TV Shae's never been about the money, and she's always been nothing but loving towards Sansa since 2x06, no matter how jealous and resentful she was when it came to the marriage.

I also noticed the outfit she was wearing - it seemed too big for her. I could almost swear that was meant to be Sansa's clothing she was wearing and didn't Sansa wear a necklace just like that from previous seasons / episodes? We should comb back through old footage to see... major clue there if she's wearing Sansa's stuff...

Sansa never wore a necklace like the one Shae was wearing in this episode. Sansa did have a pink dress very like the one Shae was wearing in this episode, but it got trashed during the riot in 2x06.

I do think the nicer outfit was a tipoff that Shae's been compensated amply for her testimony, but I don't think that money motivated TV Shae; it was probably just a nice bonus to accomplishing her main objective (revenge on Tyrion).

Also, on the topic of necklaces - I freaking KNEW when Littlefinger threw the necklace back on Dontos' dead body that it would be found and that was done purposely...

Me, too. That seemed entirely too deliberate--why not throw both the necklace and the body overboard?--and I'm glad to have had that suspicion vindicated in 4x06.

they've played up the whole Sansa scapegoat angle way way too much for my liking personally

In the show, it almost seems as if Sansa's being tried in absentia along with Tyrion. I didn't get that sense in the books.

[joachim]

Cersei probably thinks that Tyrion arranged her escape. More significant is that someone noticed that Sansa was wearing that necklace. "I mean, really, how often do you look at a man's shoes?"

[Banner Without Brothers]

If her motivation was coercion I don't think she would have thrown in the personal details that she did. The "I am yours and you are mine" bit. She threw that in specifically to hurt him as much as she could. I think it was definitely spite.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

Sometimes you'll hear about murderers from their friends or family "i never thought it, he was so nice and lovely".

Just because Shae was bubbly for most of the series doesn't mean she was incapable of betrayal. Just means the right triggers were pushed. Considering she's a whore, I'm sure if we were to see her life through her eyes then the whole situation with Tyrion would be spelled out.

It shouldn't have to be spelled out.

[Newstar]

I noticed on rewatch that unlike Book Shae, who came up with some truly ridiculous lies about Tyrion--he arranged for the death of the boy he was to marry, he raped her repeatedly, he forced her to become a whore, Tyrion killed Joffrey because he wanted to have the throne, etc. etc.--most of what TV Shae said about Tyrion, aside from the bits about colluding with Sansa to murder Joffrey and filching poison from Pycelle, was pretty much true.

If her motivation was coercion I don't think she would have thrown in the personal details that she did. The "I am yours and you are mine" bit. She threw that in specifically to hurt him as much as she could. I think it was definitely spite.

Yes. She took her testimony as an opportunity to air her grievances against Tyrion. Her account at the trial was really an account of all her outrage, anger, resentment, and heartbreak over the relationship. The lies about Tyrion murdering Joffrey were only the icing on the cake; the real meat of her testimony was the story of how Tyrion (in her mind) used her, abused her, took her love for granted, and ultimately threw her away in favour of Sansa.

[SummerSong]

I thought Shae's scene in the trial made the whole decision to make her more of a sympathetic love-interest on the show seem an even bigger mistake then ever.

In the books she turns on Tyrion for some petty, material gain. That's the sort of thing that could make a person in Tyrion's position just sick with humanity in general.

In the show, she's more of an angry, rejected lover, taking revenge on the man who turned her out. Far less compelling-- not to mention less believable.

You seriously think it's not believable that an angry rejected woman takes revenge on the man who rejected her? You clearly haven't seen many ugly breakups. People plan all sorts of elaborate revenge scenarios. "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" is a famous saying for a reason. You may prefer the book version of Shea's betrayal, but the show version is very credible. The unsullied won't have a problem with it.

[Newstar]

Having rewatched the scene, I'm not really seeing coercion. When Tyrion begs her "Please don't" and she looks at him, all her "nervousness" and fear drop away and the glare she gives him is one of pure contempt. This is definitely "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" territory.

[Emperoreddy]

You seriously think it's not believable that an angry rejected woman takes revenge on the man who rejected her? You clearly haven't seen many ugly breakups. People plan all sorts of elaborate revenge scenarios. "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" is a famous saying for a reason. You may prefer the book version of Shea's betrayal, but the show version is very credible. The unsullied won't have a problem with it.

She also jumps to the worst quickly. She flipped out when he once called Sansa a "great beauty" and goes into her "Shae, the funny little whore" act rather easily. Really doesn't seem outlandish that she wants some revenge after what Tyrion said to her.

I think part of her is forced, she seemed confused and scared when Tyrion demands trial by combat. Maybe part of her deal involved keeping him alive ala the deal Jamie struck.

[SeanF]

I thought Shae's scene in the trial made the whole decision to make her more of a sympathetic love-interest on the show seem an even bigger mistake then ever.

In the books she turns on Tyrion for some petty, material gain. That's the sort of thing that could make a person in Tyrion's position just sick with humanity in general.

In the show, she's more of an angry, rejected lover, taking revenge on the man who turned her out. Far less compelling-- not to mention less believable.

In the books, it's never been made explicit whether she turned on Tyrion for gain, out of bitterness, or through coercion. Possibly, a combination of all three.