Can a Jon Snow + Daenerys romance work in the final book? Part 2

[George48]

It wouldn't: Jon is married to the Wall and Dany is... herself (mourning Drogo but a the same time falling in love with Daario).

[PirateVergo]

So a 13 year old girl not stopping three huge barbarian warriors (and her husband) from killing her brother is disgusting?

Why are you asking me this? I'm not the character Jon Snow, and the answer would yes if I was, Martin clearly made clear that Jon was disgusted by Axell Florent for this reason.

How does Jon letting his love die in an attack on Castle Black, after he was the one who warned the Night's Watch about it rate?

Jon chose the nightwatch over Ygritte long ago, and he didn't let her die, it's not like he could have saved Ygritte.

Holding Daenerys accountable for Viserys' moronic behavior and death is insane.

From Jon's pov it's not insane at all, she's guilty of watching her own brother being burned without doing anything to help him.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Evidence? (Other than the relationship with Ygritte, which can super-easily be classified as "love the one you're with" or "any port in a storm.")

Clearly a certain level of attraction to Val, another strong, independent woman.

This. But clearly having icexombies as your enemies is so much simpler than mustache twirling villains.

But Dany has done things. Again she single handily took Astapor. That was here with the Dragon. That was her taking the Unsullied and freeing them.

Yes you are right, single handily. You are absolutely right, having to keep fighting with icezombies for your life every single moment of your life is so much easier than ordering people to do what you want.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Why are you asking me this? I'm not the character Jon Snow, and the answer would yes if I was, Martin clearly made clear that Jon was disgusted by Axell Florent for this reason.

Jon chose the nightwatch over Ygritte long ago, and he didn't let her die, it's not like he could have saved Ygritte.

From Jon's pov it's not insane at all, she's guilty of watching her own brother being burned without doing anything to help him.

Blaming Daenerys for not helping Viserys when she could not is the same as blaming Jon for not being with Robb at the Redd Wedding.

Neither of them could lift a finger to help but somehow Daenerys is to blame but Jon is not.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Clearly a certain level of attraction to Val, another strong, independent woman.

Well. Again, Val is hot. And she's the only hot chick around. And I don't think Jon has fallen for her, he has just noticed that she's hot.

Maybe you can put Ygritte and Val together for a tiny smidgeon of evidence that Jon has a certain type, but it sure ain't convincing. I think pretty much any straight guy would've gone for Ygritte under those very special circumstances, and 100% of straight guys would notice that Val is attractive.

So you don't even get to the part of figuring out whether Dany is that type. (But if you do, she is. . . .)

[Hodor's Dragon]

Yes you are right, single handily. You are absolutely right, having to keep fighting with icezombies for your life every single moment of your life is so much easier than ordering people to do what you want.

If you really feel that burning, snarky sarcasm is the best form of communication, at least try to come within a country mile of the facts.

[JonSnow4President]

But Dany has done things. Again she single handily took Astapor. That was here with the Dragon. That was her taking the Unsullied and freeing them.

You mean single handedly lied, betrayed good faith negotiations (once again, for an honorable motive, if done solely to free the slaves), and ordered a bunch of effectively mindless zombies to destroy the Masters (IIRC, frees them after the city falls), while her dragons burned stuff.

Yup, definitely her own dirty work.

[LordStoneheart]

Dare I keep going?

I don't find much conclusive in the type argument because Jon and Dany have both barely been with others. They were both (sort of, i Jon's case) forced into their first relationships. Dany's next choice is a swashbuckling clown but she recognizes why he's not good for her. To go by Barristan's analogy, she recognizes the fire but just doesn't see the value in mud. Jon Snow isn't mud though. He may be introspective but I do think he's exactly what she'd want if they were given that chance to interact. Jon on the other hand may have grown a lot during his arc but always remember his first hero: Daeron the Young Dragon, 15 year old Targaryen conqueror of sand lands whose efforts weren't successful for long. Its not a stretch to think they'd be into each other. And let me emphasize again that they're each teenagers. Are they really gonna say no to other? ;)

I do realize this ain't a fairy tale but I think its a little presumptuous to say they'd hate each other when we know they're more layered than "she like showy warrior men! He likes... Showy warrior women?"

Hmmmm.... :D

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Yes you are right, single handily. You are absolutely right, having to keep fighting with icezombies for your life every single moment of your life is so much easier than ordering people to do what you want.

So she has been in some never ending Ice Zombie hell, even though the Others have only been back for a short time.

And the amount of tragedies someone survives through is the only way to determine if someone is independent? So basically only women who are from beyond the Wall count?

your irrational hatred for the character is dumbfounding. All you are going to do is make yourself hate the series after Jon and Dany end up together.

Where as I want them together, but it wont be the end of the world if it doesn't happen.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Dare I keep going?

I don't find much conclusive in the type argument because Jon and Dany have both barely been with others. They were both (sort of, i Jon's case) forced into their first relationships. Dany's next choice is a swashbuckling clown but she recognizes why he's not good for her. To go by Barristan's analogy, she recognizes the fire but just doesn't see the value in mud. Jon Snow isn't mud though. He may be introspective but I do think he's exactly what she'd want if they were given that chance to interact. Jon on the other hand may have grown a lot during his arc but always remember his first hero: Daeron the Young Dragon, 15 year old Targaryen conqueror of sand lands whose efforts weren't successful for long. Its not a stretch to think they'd be into each other. And let me emphasize again that they're each teenagers. Are they really gonna say no to other? ;)

I do realize this ain't a fairy tale but I think its a little presumptuous to say they'd hate each other when we know they're more layered than "she like showy warrior men! He likes... Showy warrior women?"

Hmmmm.... :D

Jon's what, 16? And demonstrably not gay? And Dany is described as the most beautiful woman in the world?

Are we really and truly debating whether he'd hit it?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

If you really feel that burning, snarky sarcasm is the best form of communication, at least try to come within a country mile of the facts.

Ok.

Fact: Jon has a certain type of women. Fact: Dany doesn't fit.

Fact: Jon's father is Ned. Fact: Dany's Usurper's dogs.

Fact: Several foreshadowings point to another woman for Jon.

So she has been in some never ending Ice Zombie hell, even though the Others have only been back for a short time.

Really? Because last time I checked Craster was sacrificing his sons a long long time before the beginning of the books. So yes the free folk have seen the real enemy and they fight with it for their life every single day.

And the amount of tragedies someone survives through is the only way to determine if someone is independent? So basically only women who are from beyond the Wall count?

Huh? Dany depends on the Dragons and her followers, or do you believe that without her dragons Dany would had anything at all? No, she has power because of the dragons so she is dependent on them. Ygritte and or Val are depended on themselves. See the difference?

your irrational hatred for the character is dumbfounding. All you are going to do is make yourself hate the series after Jon and Dany end up together.

Where as I want them together, but it wont be the end of the world if it doesn't happen.

Sure.

[LordStoneheart]

Jon's what, 16? And demonstrably not gay? And Dany is described as the most beautiful woman in the world?

Are we really and truly debating whether he'd hit it?

"I am Daenerys Stormb-ohohohOHHHHH!"

[Hodor's Dragon]

.

Fact: Jon has a certain type of women. Fact: Dany doesn't fit.

Definition of fact.

[WSmith84]

Whether or not they'd find each other attractive is not nearly as important as whether they actually like each other. Dany is extremely good-looking and Jon can be considered to be good-looking too. That doesn't mean that they'll necessarily like the other's personality.

Jon will initially hold Viserys' death against her when he hears the bare facts i.e. Dany's husband killed Viserys as she watched. But when he learns the details, that will likely no longer count, or at least not nearly as much.

It will probably depend a lot on whether Jon and/or Dany are aware of Jon's heritage or not.

And of course, it will depend on whether Dany uses the words Usurper's Dogs - use that phrase one-too many times and she may end up with a throat full of direwolf teeth.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Ok... I have to say it.

The whole idea of Val being perfect for Jon because she's strong and independent is the same we can use to match him with Dany, Arianne, Elia and even Arya (yes, ewww... I know). Is like saying that a man nowadays looks for a woman who isn't an idiot. A woman who is strong, independent and not an idiot can be anything. I know women who are strong, good in their works but they lack depth, for instance.

The question is "what Jon wants?".

Ygritte wanted me to be a wildling. Stannis wants me to be the Lord of Winterfell. But what do I want? [...]Jon watched as that towering expanse of ice took on the reds and pinks of sunset. Would I sooner be hanged for a turncloak by Lord Janos, or forswear my vows, marry Val, and become the Lord of Winterfell? It seemed an easy choice when he thought of it in those terms . . . though if Ygritte had still been alive, it might have been even easier. Val was a stranger to him. She was not hard on the eyes, certainly, and she had been sister to Mance Rayder's queen, but still...

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me

Jon realises first that people have always wanted him to be something, and people have often also defined what he is. That's one of the reasons he joined the Watch, because he and his future children would have a bastard's name. Also, he took a decision, as Benjen said, without knowing what he was giving up. Had he not taking the black and things gone better for the Starks, he would have a wife and children. He probably wouldn't love the wife, but he would love his kids.

He considers Val as something like "yeah, she's pretty, I wouldn't be terribly unhappy with her" when he considers her as a wife but that's all she represents and that's the same thing every other Lord in Westeros has when they marry. Also, if he accepts Stannis' offer and marries Val, he will need to represent a role too. Will he have to if he marries her and become a wilding? Yes. Probably, because those aren't things Jon really wants nor what he is.

In his fantasy, like in Sansa's, the image of a spouse is replaceable: it's the children that matters to them because children represents a sense of family, in the same way Sansa wanted to name her children Bran and Rickon, Jon wants them to live the childhood he had, and in his childhood, the "female figure" of a mother is something he didn't have. So, Jon wants a family. A simple life as a man with children. Is Val a woman who will simply find herself happy being Mrs. Snow and having his children? Doesn't look like. Hell, not even Ygritte.

In that same chapter he's elected Lord Commander and he realises that he needs to completely give up the dream of having kids of his own, in the same way Sansa sees that fantasy being taken away from her by other people making choices in her name. In the next chapters of Jon (those are in Dance), he has a sense of "doom" (yeah, I use that in purpose) because his fantasy is now completely gone.

So, I'm not saying that Dany is THE perfect match for Jon, but at least they both want the same: a place they can call home and people they can call family. Even if the rule together, when they are alone in their bedroom and take off their crowns, they will be incredibly happy together next to the fire, with their babies and their pets, chatting about the day and such.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Definition of fact.

Again; Dany doesn't fit Jon's criteria (and of course there are several foreshadowings that Jon will be with another woman)

And there is the small matter that for Jon Dany is a kinslayer.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Ok.

Fact: Jon has a certain type of women. Fact: Dany doesn't fit.

Fact: Jon's father is Ned. Fact: Dany's Usurper's dogs.

Fact: Several foreshadowings point to another woman for Jon.

None of those are facts. They are complete opinions

Really? Because last time I checked Craster was sacrificing his sons a long long time before the beginning of the books. So yes the free folk have seen the real enemy and they fight with it for their life every single day.

We don't know that they were taking Crater's sons before then. The wolves might have been taking them. There is decent amount of signs that the magic in the world (including the Others has only returned since the Comet showed up).

Huh? Dany depends on the Dragons and her followers, or do you believe that without her dragons Dany would had anything at all? No, she has power because of the dragons so she is dependent on them. Ygritte and or Val are depended on themselves. See the difference?

Would Val and Ygritte be anything with out the other Free Folk or Mance Rayder?

Daenerys is a Queen so you cant use people doing things for her against her. She couldn't do those things even if she wanted to.

But she is not completely dependent on others, she could have just been a toy to Drogo, but instead she learned how to make him love her. She has taken what she has been givin and turned it into something. Most other women in here place would not have done half as well as she has done.

[LordStoneheart]

JonCon that last bit was so beautiful...

JQC, this is probably another impasse for us but just think about what their future child could be named...

Jhaegard Snowstorm

:D

[Hodor's Dragon]

Ok... I have to say it.

The whole idea of Val being perfect for Jon because she's strong and independent is the same we can use to match him with Dany, Arianne, Elia and even Arya (yes, ewww... I know). Is like saying that a man nowadays looks for a woman who isn't an idiot. A woman who is strong, independent and not an idiot can be anything. I know women who are strong, good in their works but they lack depth, for instance.

The question is "what Jon wants?".

Ygritte wanted me to be a wildling. Stannis wants me to be the Lord of Winterfell. But what do I want? [...]Jon watched as that towering expanse of ice took on the reds and pinks of sunset. Would I sooner be hanged for a turncloak by Lord Janos, or forswear my vows, marry Val, and become the Lord of Winterfell? It seemed an easy choice when he thought of it in those terms . . . though if Ygritte had still been alive, it might have been even easier. Val was a stranger to him. She was not hard on the eyes, certainly, and she had been sister to Mance Rayder's queen, but still...

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me

Jon realises first that people have always wanted him to be something, and people have often also defined what he is. That's one of the reasons he joined the Watch, because he and his future children would have a bastard's name. Also, he took a decision, as Benjen said, without knowing what he was giving up. Had he not taking the black and things gone better for the Starks, he would have a wife and children. He probably wouldn't love the wife, but he would love his kids.

He considers Val as something like "yeah, she's pretty, I wouldn't be terribly unhappy with her" when he considers her as a wife but that's all she represents and that's the same thing every other Lord in Westeros has when they marry. Also, if he accepts Stannis' offer and marries Val, he will need to represent a role too. Will he have to if he marries her and become a wilding? Yes. Probably, because those aren't things Jon really wants nor what he is.

In his fantasy, like in Sansa's, the image of a spouse is replaceable: it's the children that matters to them because children represents a sense of family, in the same way Sansa wanted to name her children Bran and Rickon, Jon wants them to live the childhood he had, and in his childhood, the "female figure" of a mother is something he didn't have. So, Jon wants a family. A simple life as a man with children. Is Val a woman who will simply find herself happy being Mrs. Snow and having his children? Doesn't look like. Hell, not even Ygritte.

In that same chapter he's elected Lord Commander and he realises that he needs to completely give up the dream of having kids of his own, in the same way Sansa sees that fantasy being taken away from her by other people making choices in her name. In the next chapters of Jon (those are in Dance), he has a sense of "doom" (yeah, I use that in purpose) because his fantasy is now completely gone.

So, I'm not saying that Dany is THE perfect match for Jon, but at least they both want the same: a place they can call home and people they can call family. Even if the rule together, when they are alone in their bedroom and take off their crowns, they will be incredibly happy together next to the fire, with their babies and their pets, chatting about the day and such.

Interesting post, thanks. I can't really see the Father Knows Best future for Jon and Dany, but it's a nice fantasy.

[Faint]

The whole idea of Val being perfect for Jon because she's strong and independent . . .

There is that and the fact that Benioff and Weiss already took the Jon and Val romance behind the woodshed and put it down.