Le Cygne

Rethinking Romance: Love Stories of ASOIAF, Part 2

149 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

@weirwood eyes I loved all your comments throughout this thread! I'm also a breastfeeding counselor too!! 

Thank you very much. :) Always nice to meet a fellow BFC. :) 

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On 12/12/2017 at 1:00 PM, Lady Dacey said:

Just wanna say I read through the whole thread and really enjoyed all the analysis and discussion! I never cared for Sandor/Sansa as a couple, I always saw him just as a figure of her imagination, playing a part on her personal development from girl to young woman, but now you've got me hoping a few more interactions between the two. I wouldn't go as far as hoping for a marriage, but I definetely abandoned the idea I had that their story was over on page already.

Arya and Gendry always stood out for me as a possible romantic couple, I think it's obvious they have strong feelings for each other but don't acknowledge it (Arya) or don't know how to act about it (Gendry). The articles about those two in the thread are a delight to read, but I got the impression they were "speaking to the converts". I'd love to go through a chronological re-read of their chapters to highlight how Martin gives us so many hints of their underlying feelings, even if some readers choose to overlook them. 

That's my take as well with their story.

I'd love to go throught it as well!

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On 12/13/2017 at 6:48 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I love how you point out the symbolism of the bloody white cloak, the fact that she dons his cloak herself pointing to the importance of autonomy in her story, and the cedar chest mirroring a hope chest. I know I mentioned this already but it struck me in one of his short stories that he includes a cedar hope chest, revealing that he absolutely knows the symbolism in having her place his cloak in one!

Nice points, and a great find of the cedar hope chest mention in GRRM's other story! These were commonly used by young women to prepare for married life. I found some ads here and here. Love stories are about hope, and this one is beautifully so.

Found a nice quote from Diana Gabaldon in Voyager, Marsali reminds me of Sansa. She wants to marry the man she loves, Fergus, who, like Sandor, has only his heart to offer, and he's older, too (Marsali is 15, Fergus is 30), but she knows what she wants:

So she had done it. One fifteen-year-old girl, with nothing but stubbornness as a weapon. “I want him,” she had said. And kept saying it, through her mother’s objections and Jamie’s arguments, through Fergus’s scruples and her own fears, through three thousand miles of homesickness, hardship, ocean storm, and shipwreck.

She raised her face, shining, and found her mirror in Fergus’s eyes. I saw them look at each other, and felt the tears prickle behind my lids. 

“I want him.” 

Edited by Le Cygne

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On 12/10/2017 at 1:07 PM, Nasty LongRider said:

Ohhhhh, nice, didn't see that parallel there.  Really, really like it.

He's got some nice Jane Eyre ones going on, too. Right down to the wording, I'll add that later. :)

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1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

So she had done it. One fifteen-year-old girl, with nothing but stubbornness as a weapon. “I want him,” she had said. And kept saying it, through her mother’s objections and Jamie’s arguments, through Fergus’s scruples and her own fears, through three thousand miles of homesickness, hardship, ocean storm, and shipwreck.

She raised her face, shining, and found her mirror in Fergus’s eyes. I saw them look at each other, and felt the tears prickle behind my lids. 

“I want him.” 

This is gorgeously written and reminds me why I liked the DG books so much. This is a wonderfully romantic descriptor of how fiercely the heart can burn for someone. I love it! 

Yes the moment I read the about the Hope chest in The Skin Trade it set bells ringing. I'd clocked that the Cedar Chest Sansa places the cloak in could be a Hope chest symbolically already and you will recall I'd been saying so for years. But when I read the skin trade and he had a hope chest specifically and told us as readers what one is and what they were used for I knew I'd been right! Being British I'd not realised how ubiquitous they once were in the states, so wasn't certain that GRRM would be familiar enough with them for the use of a Cedar chest to really be as symbolic as I thought. Now I am 100% certain.  

And when you examine The Skin Trade it too is the beginning of a Beauty & the Beast story. As it was originally the first of an intended series of stories and without giving spoilers I will point out we have a beast (he's a werewolf.) who is into the beauty, but she isn't into him. This is the set up for a beauty & the beast story. As is SanSan.

GRRM & DG give nods to and borrow from one another quite a bit if you look closely at both bodies of work. I know they are friends. So I feel this is likely deliberate. Little nods to each other and what not. Jamie's mother and father eloped and hid out until she was visibly pregnant. This was indeed quite common historically. Rhaegar & Lyanna were likely doing the same thing initially until Aerys fucked it all up by burning Brandon& Rickard. DG has a baby inherit land and property despite very obviously not being the daughter of the man it belonged to simply because legally she is his heir as her mother was married to him. Asha is probably pregnant and is officially married to Erik Ironmaker and Theon can not produce his own heir. So it is likely her child will inherit the iron islands despite being rather obviously not her husbands kid. ie: a bastard should not inherit but as they will "officially" be legitimate due to her marriage they can. If we look at the Iron Islands history too in TWOIAF there is a similar situation with an uncle having his nephew ( I think) inherit the driftwood crown as he has not had any children of his own.

And of course DG named the plantation of Aunt Jocasta Riverrun. 

Just some little thoughts and observations. No real point other than that I like those little easter egg type things.

Edited by The Weirwoods Eyes

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4 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Nice points, and a great find of the cedar hope chest mention in GRRM's other story! These were commonly used by young women to prepare for married life. I found some ads here and here. Love stories are about hope, and this one is beautifully so.

The cedar hope chest tradition is really a nice one.  My grandfather had a cedar chest made for my mother when she was in high school.  Of course, my sibs and I knew her long after she was married and by then she had filled the chest with many little remembrances of her children.  Sadly, the tradition just didn't carry on with her daughters.  

What's put in a hope chest is completely up to the woman who owns it; she gets to decide what is important enough to warrant safe keeping in that special, hopeful space.  So Sansa placing the bloody cloak in the chest does have meaning not just for her story, but Sandor's as well. 

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7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

And of course DG named the plantation of Aunt Jocasta Riverrun. 

Just some little thoughts and observations. No real point other than that I like those little easter egg type things.

Oh, that's a good one! There's also a name Geillis as a "seer of the future" uses, Melisande! And lots more, like Jamie saying to Claire, like Sandor says to Sansa, whether you will it or no, which is about strong feelings on an instinctual level, something deep and true. I like that DG says Marsali's strength is her own inner feelings, and knowing what she wants. That's something no one can ever take from her, not even a cruel world, that strength that comes from within.

Edited by Le Cygne

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4 hours ago, Nasty LongRider said:

What's put in a hope chest is completely up to the woman who owns it; she gets to decide what is important enough to warrant safe keeping in that special, hopeful space.  So Sansa placing the bloody cloak in the chest does have meaning not just for her story, but Sandor's as well. 

Ah, that's beautifully said, and very true. She gets to decide, and that's what makes it so special.

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