PhD research: The Early Days of the Westeros Forum and the ASOIAF Fandom

[Kat]

I joined the "old board" in 2005, I guess in the summer, before AFFC came out. I posted a little there but didn't like the dark background (really!) and only started posting more once the board moved to this server. I actually never posted a whole lot about the books. I read the threads, certainly, and posted about AFFC and ADWD when they came out, but since the terrible days of my high school English classes I haven't been that big of an active participant in literary discussions. :lol: It did seem like when I got here, most people who post in the Miscellaneous sections now posted more frequently in the book forums, while nowadays those long-time fans either post less up there, or are a few in a much larger group of newer fans. Which is fine, because new ideas are good. I think the greater exposure of Game of Thrones in the media and the fact that social media and discussion forums have evolved since 2005 has led to really different discussions there. And the sub-fandom thing is definitely a thing.

When I first came here, I recall being able to look through virtually all of the fanart that Ran had linked from the main Westeros site. Now there's new stuff popping up on Tumblr and the like constantly. Having stuff that goes on outside of this forum means that there are fan works happening now that wouldn't have taken off before because there can be critical masses of fans beyond the board. For instance, the board's policy is no fanfic because George doesn't approve of it; we (moderators) take down pretty much all references to it. I don't really read it (because after years of exposure to crazy theories, that's exhausting) but I know it exists and personally don't really care. In fact, I'm glad that fandom outside of this board exists and affects the board here because it tends to bring in more feminist-friendly fans. At some point, maybe circa 2007, someone posted a feminist critique of the ASOIAF fandom based on discussions in the book threads here, and Ran responded to it saying that the board wasn't as much of a disgusting rape-apology pit as the author made it out to be (because the mods have tended to keep that stuff on lockdown). The influx of new fans, many of whom are female and geeky, has made the book forums less troll-pit-like, although the TV forums move so quickly that it's really hard to keep the friendly atmosphere in there. But I have to say, based on responding to moderation reports before and after the TV show and ADWD started, people get crazy worked up over book discussions. Unscientifically, most of the book discussion reports (excluding spoilers) are over heated arguments (people losing perspective that these are arguments about fantasy books!), while most of the TV forum reports are over people posting random vile stuff like rape apologies. But it's still better discussion here than elsewhere.

I've been going to Worldcon with people here since 2006. I mostly got into it because at the time I was living in the middle of nowhere and my main social outlet was posting on the board, specifically playing Mafia in Forum Games. I met a bunch of friends from there and have been to 5 Worldcons now. It's funny, because even though the 2006 Worldcon had a huge BWB turnout and was a pretty crazy party, the knightings didn't stop until later (due to too much demand I guess.) But the knightings/quests were pretty fun, and I still hold onto my title.

P.S. I blame this board for my going from the ca. 1997 rule of "everyone you meet on the internet is probably an axe murderer" to playing a forum game in which people got brutally axe murdered and turned into sausages to sharing a hotel room with those same people (hoping they were not really axe murderers) in less than a year. And all I got from my first con was a title, a pic with all the BWB laydeez on a bed with George and the hangover to end all hangovers. It was awful. 10/10 would go again.

[Happy Ent]

My story mirrors that of several others here, so I won’t tire you with it.

One thing only: don’t make the mistake of thinking GRRM was unknown before the TV show. By the time the first volume of A Song of Ice and Fire hit the bookstores in 1996, GRRM was a multiple Hugo and Nebula winner and very respected in the SF community, known basically for his short stories. (There was also a small Beauty and the Beast.) In the early 2000s, the first 3 volumes occupied the top spots of the internet book list. (And they still do.)

So GRRM before Game of Thrones (TV) was nothing like, say, J K Rowling before Harry Potter. Instead, he was already famous and universally recognised as such within the F/SF community.

[Nas!]

I was a fantasy nerd long before I was an Internet nerd. Books: 1997? Forum: 2006. I came here because my girlfriend's mom was interviewing GRRM for her radio show, and I've been trapped here ever since.

Eta: I suggested GRRM as an author to interview, and I was worried no one would come out to be in the live audience. I wouldn't have guessed that people would be lining up around the block to get in.

[MinDonner]

OP, you're lucky enough to be here during one of the iconic board traditions, the World Cup Random Country Allocation - check out the thread in Ent and prepare to be confused/amused as everyone gleefully adopts the stereotypes of their assigned nation for some fun sports jingoism. I believe this started to head off the chances of any actual jingoism that might have led to proper fights, but that's all from way before my time.

I've been here since '06 (whoa, almost exactly 8 years now, to the week!); I mostly started off in the Lit forum (especially while the Goodkind threads were in full flow) with occasional forays into the book threads. There were a lot more fun threads back then, which didn't immediately get banished to Forum Games, so the book threads also had topics like "What shows would be on Westeros TV?" (big props to whoever came up with the science-fiction serieses Maester Who and Steam Trek :thumbsup:). There were fewer threads overall, so much easier to keep up with the various theories, crackpot and otherwise, and get to know the posters better. The last time I ventured into the book threads was just after ADwD came out; it was useful for finding out about Frey Pie (which I'd missed in the book itself), but the sheer volume of new threads flooding the board was just too offputting and I didn't stick around long enough to find out what new crackpottery may have been emerging.

Aside from the constant crashes, the post-HBO influx has made it nigh impossible to have the friendlier small-scale conversations in the book/show threads that we used to have, which is a real shame. I have a lot of friends on this board who I'd like to discuss the show with, but the show threads rapidly turned into a showdown between nitpicky book purists and semi-literates who just liked the tits, and I've not been in there since Season 1. For a while during season... 2?, we had a sneaky show-discussion thread hidden in Ent, under a topic title professing to be about Embroidery or something (for a cunning disguise!) - that was quite fun, especially having to phrase your opinions in embroidery-language ("I liked the way the rose pattern merged with the wolf pattern this week", etc), but the mods caught on eventually and it got closed down. :(

I mostly stick around here out of habit nowadays, and rarely get dragged into any deeper discussions, but we do still have some vestiges of the sense of community that we used to have, and this is still probably the Best Place On The Internet. Recent awesome examples of that are the response to Merc Chef's Kickstarter, and the really heartwarming support for Robin when she came out as trans*. And I'm hoping the World Cup shenanigans will be as much fun as the ones in previous years... :)

[Derfel Cadarn]

Min, I thought you'd been around longer fpr some reason. I sort-of met you at the Oxford meet-up in 2007 (unles I'm confusing you with someone else) and your board name was pretty familiar.

I started the books in 1999 but didnt fallin love with the series until 2000 when ASoS came out. I joines the ezboard forum in late 2001 or 2002. I met GRRM in 2005 at Glascon and a couple months later at a Glasgow booksigning.

The forum has changed, and a lot of the pld days posters have sadly moved on. It would be interestig to see what the board would gave been like if there had been no show. With AFfC and ADwD having disappobted some readers, plus the gaps between books, I wonder if it would have withered, or if the misc stuff would have sustained it.

[Solmyr]

Reading through some of other people's stories and how they feel about the post-TV show fans, I just wanted to add that I actually envy all those, who haven't read the books yet. That feeling is a repetition of what the person, who first told me about the books, shared with me: "I envy those who haven't yet read the books, for they are yet to experience the joy of reading them for the first time.".

[awesome possum]

For a while during season... 2?, we had a sneaky show-discussion thread hidden in Ent, under a topic title professing to be about Embroidery or something (for a cunning disguise!) - that was quite fun, especially having to phrase your opinions in embroidery-language ("I liked the way the rose pattern merged with the wolf pattern this week", etc), but the mods caught on eventually and it got closed down. :(

That is honestly the worst part for me of the shows popularity. I want to talk about this show so bad but it's so damned popular now that trying to get your thoughts across is like dropping a snowball into an avalanche. So I end up boring my wife's ears off with stuff she understands not at all. Like last night, I was trying to explain to her what happens with Rorge and Biter in the books and also how I have no idea where they're going with Jorah's story because of the difference in him still, you know, being there. After five minutes of rambling I finally noticed she was not paying attention to me at all.

Just the other day I had an idea that we need to maybe take over a thread of a show that's on hiatus or was canceled; no one will suspect a thread called, "The Tom Green Show Discussion Thread."

[Inevittable]

Wow, thanks everyone. I've been offline for the weekend and it's fantastic to come back and see so many replies. From a once-over I can see a few themes emerging:

The higher volume of fans since the TV show has lessened the 'community' feel of the forum

It's difficult to join in and have your voice heard on the areas frequented by relatively new members

Those of you who have been around for a very long time seem to have said all you need to say about the books and enjoy talking about other things instead

Differing opinions about the relative 'superiority' of book-readers

General dissatisfaction with the wait between books, but overall pleasure taken from the series as a whole

There's a high intellectual level to the community

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this quick summary.

[Xray the Enforcer]

A number of us are inveterate drunks who are forced to support England sports sides, either due to accident of birth or malevolence of the random-country-picker.

[Errant Bard]

England also had a reputation for being the most violent of all footballers, at one time, if I recall.

It's difficult to join in and have your voice heard on the areas frequented by relatively new members

No, it's easier. Whatever you post you will get a larger audience and more people interested in your ideas than before. It's just that you will not be as significant as you could have been before.

General dissatisfaction with the wait between books, but overall pleasure taken from the series as a whole

It's more that you end up not caring much either way after a while. Disappointment is vocal with those new to waiting. Overall pleasure fades with time and contrast.

There's a high intellectual level to the community

There are some amazing posters, and some subjects magnify that, but I think it is just a factor of the early fandom being book-readers, and having had time to grow up in the decades since the release of AGOT. You know, the nerds, only adult. For the rest, since the TV release, I am really not seeing much difference with other places discussing popular culture.

[Gertrude]

As an example of the community feel this board had (has?) you can look over a thread memorializing a beloved board member. It's been nearly 5 years since his passing and his loss is still keenly felt by many - he was part of this family.

It did used to be more carefree and people felt comfortable enough to talk about anything. I can't imagine NHAW happening now. (That's naked hatted avatar week - great fun, no actual naughty bits). Lot's of good people have joined, but so many have left or don't post much and it doesn't feel the same.

I joined the old board shortly before it migrated after lurking for a long bit. I remember people talking about Lord Manwoody's passing, but wasn't around long enough to know him. I imagine people felt much as they did when hearing about EHK or Brude. (sorry I am being so maudlin - I just saw the EHK thread pop up on the front page and I was thinking about it, sorry) I came for the books, stayed for the people. And mafia.

Occasionally we have a spurt of collective silliness in misc and it feels like earlier times, but they are a bit further apart. There was a few days when all we could talk about were mac and cheese, cannibalism and copperhead snakes, etc - all spawned from other threads as parody. And mostly good-natured ribbing of floobs. And it is good-natured. Rarely do I see an established poster be outright rude.

I see where some of the floob (flood of noobs) would see some cliquishness, but I don't think it's that bad, honestly. We had an adopt a floob program for the first season :P I think a lot of it is that we have all had a part in shaping this board and we know the tenor and tone of things here. Some posters (not all, obviously) come in and either just don't fit in with that or don't care to. It's like a stranger coming to a party in your living room - you don't know who they are but there they stand, drinking your whiskey and insulting your furniture. So yeah, everything I just said is confirmation of the cliquishness, isn't it? LeSigh. OK, fine I'll own it. Its our clubhouse and our rules. If you don't like it, leave or die a death of a thousand cuts by sharp wit and biting sarcasm. (but we really are a welcoming and friendly group, promise!)

My perception of George has been shaped almost exclusively by this board. I have heard nothing but positive things about him from people who have met him and interacted with him. I feel this board is very protective of him because of the personal relationship he has with many of the BwB. That's not a bad thing at all, it's just another quirk of the board that floobs might not get if they don't pay attention. (and I always get a giggle when I see someone post something like 'who is this Ran guy that you all defer to him?') I am getting frustrated with his pace mainly because now it is a race between the show and him. If it were just the books, I'd wait like I always have and know the next one is going to be excellent. Now with the show (probably) overtaking the books, I am sad and frustrated. I don't want to have the story 'spoiled' for me by the show, but even less do I want to accidentally get spoiled without watching it because of the internet. So, soooooo torn and frustrated on that score.

[Gertrude]

There are some amazing posters, and some subjects magnify that, but I think it is just a factor of the early fandom being book-readers, and having had time to grow up in the decades since the release of AGOT. You know, the nerds, only adult. For the rest, since the TV release, I am really not seeing much difference with other places discussing popular culture.

This is a pretty good point, I think.

[Mya Stone]

I started lurking right around when I read the first three books, in 2003. I didn't officially join until 2004, over on EZBoard. (I, for one, miss the black background :p). This board single-handedly watched me grow from a 23 year old girl into an almost 33 year old woman and mother. I have forged many lifelong friendships because of the close knit aspects of the community (although he doesn't post anymore at all, really, my fiancee/baby daddy is a long-time boarder as well).

I don't feel compelled to post here very often anymore. Part of it can be contributed to the overwhelming numbers of people here, but mainly it's because of the rise of social media. I don't feel the need to come here to check in on my group of friends, because we're all in contact via Facebook.

I have met George a handful of times. He has always been very sweet. I helped organize a human chess match for him at WorldCon in 2006. He gave my very pregnant self a seat (on his lap) at the World Fantasy convention in 2007. Alas, I haven't been to a con since then - I blame having two children on that.

It may not be the small community it used to be, but I still feel a bond to those who were here before the show. It sounds like I'm being cliquish, and maybe I am...but I find it really hard to get through all the posts in the show threads. I tend to stick to Entertainment (and sometimes GC, if something catches my eye.) My forays into the show threads has ended with me missing the level of intelligent discourse we used to have.

Alas...I just saw the EHK thread - it still affects me, to this day. His death, more than any other, is what will always keep me coming back here. I will always wonder how he would have felt about the show, and I'm sure he'd have more than a few choice words to share.

[Greywolf2375]

General Chatter is less harmless fun (I mean it's been years since a Zakalwe talked about his dick), but feels like it gets the same volume of post it always got. The community there was not renewed as it was in books forums.

Alas...I just saw the EHK thread - it still affects me, to this day. His death, more than any other, is what will always keep me coming back here. I will always wonder how he would have felt about the show, and I'm sure he'd have more than a few choice words to share.

I joined in Dec 06 after a short time of lurking around the board - I'd, as others have said, was trying to find when the next book was to be published and happened to click on the link to this piece of heaven from GRRM's site.

To answer your questions:

1) the history of the forum has been covered well by others

2) I have met him twice - at Cons. Both times I found him very approachable and friendly. First time he literally got into a car of strangers and went to dinner. Not surprisingly, he really didn't like/want to talk about the story or even his prior work but about football or damn near anything else.

3) As a former project manager, I have a lot of respect for everything he has up in the air. Trying to manage all of the different projects, appointments etc and still have his own life is a pretty amazing feat. I of course would love to see the book out next week and then the following by year end but that is because I am selfish and want to enjoy more of the story!

4) Well, changes in the fandom. This has been covered as well...but I point you to the two quotes above. While they are of wildly different topics, I think those two things really define where the board was pre-show. Yes, there are still hijinks (as you can see by the World Cup efforts) and there are still bonds being built - but while the community of fandom for GRRM has grown exponentially (which is fantastic) I think the community of Westeros.org itself has been reduced. The friendshps that existed before still exist, but you don't feel like you are walking to Cheers anymore, it's more like going into TGIFriday. Still a fun place to be, still get served, but something is missing or different. That's not necessarily a good or bad thing, just something to be adjusted to.

[zelticgar]

Inevittable,

Not sure if you are aware but some of the old boards exist as mirror sites. Here is a link with a nice argument between me and Ran about whether Brienne is a "realistic" character. God i was such a misogynist back then :) Ran was right as usual.

Some legendary posters on that thread - Ken, Dirjj, Jeff... There is no date but I am guessing 1999.

http://community.fortunecity.ws/healthclub/rowing/100/clashkin/thread12/thread121.html

[drawkcabi]

Inevittable,

Not sure if you are aware but some of the old boards exist as mirror sites. Here is a link with a nice argument between me and Ran about whether Brienne is a "realistic" character. God i was such a misogynist back then :) Ran was right as usual.

Some legendary posters on that thread - Ken, Dirjj, Jeff... There is no date but I am guessing 1999.

http://community.fortunecity.ws/healthclub/rowing/100/clashkin/thread12/thread121.html

That's awesome :)

[mouse]

I started posting on Ezboard in 2000 and was a frequent poster for years. Since the newest incarnation of the board, I have been merely a sporadic poster. I've been to several WorldCons - the older ones included San Jose in 2002, Toronto, Boston, LA, and perhaps one other I can't recall, and the more recent were Reno and Chicago.

On meeting George and interactions with him at WorldCon then and now:

Those early WorldCons were amazing opportunities to sit down with George and have him regale us with stories well into the wee hours. Yes, he had other events he needed to attend, but you could tell he was looking forward to relaxing with his fans and getting to know them on a personal level. Similarly, I was one of the attendees who went to the Chicago dinner posted about above. (It was a model train convention he was in town for.) For that one, George actually emailed us - reached out to his fans! - to set up the dinner. We had dinner at one of the Greek restaurants on Halsted in Chicago. I count myself as so fortunate to have had these opportunities.

More recently, I get the impression that George wants to have these long chats with his fans, but he has many more professional obligations than he did in the past. And even when he can make it to the events, there are just so, so many people. It's not a change in him, but it IS a change in the circumstances, and it's disappointing on a personal level.

On BwB interactions then and now:

The BwB parties at WorldCon were much more intimate back then. One of my favorite memories is the trivia contest in 2002, which George moderated and many BwB'ers competed in. I was by far one of the least knowledgeable and refused to participate; I was the timekeeper, and also was 'live-blogging' the event on the Board - with, I should add, Ran constantly editing my posts to correct misspellings and errors. There were also quests and knighting ceremonies.

Now, the BwB hosts large parties. There are private BwB gatherings, but they are still much, much larger. As I am not as active on the boards as I once was, I often don't know half the people there. I feel less camaraderie. I must say, though, our organizers do an amazing job at organizing things.

On the board in the early days:

I can't add too much that hasn't already been said about the intimacy and level of intellectual discussion. Even when we argued, there was still a sense of respect and friendship. I had arguments with several people and to this day consider them lovely people. I can echo others about the fact that people I've gotten to know on the boards, even if I've never met them, have really impacted my life. Others have mentioned the death of EHK; I never thought I could grieve for someone I only knew from words on a screen. One change I can't attribute to the boards is the impact of Facebook. Back in the day, we were ONLY words on a screen. Later, we were words + avatars. But now, I see others' personal lives through Facebook. That increases the sense of personal connection.

[Jaxom 1974]

I'm actually confused about when I first hit the ezboard site. It was sometime around 2001, as I want to say stumbling on to ASOS in late 2000 not knowing it was out yet helped me seek out Martin ' s site, thus the forum, for better access to information.

I first read ACOK in 1998 as it was a gift from a girlfriend at the time (the only positive legacy of that eventual horror show). Oddly enough, I started reading it not knowing it was the second book. I caught up though!

I've been privileged to meet GRRM once when invited to a dinner by some of the other Chicago peeps. It read at, I think, the same Greek restaurant mentioned above. George wad in town, I believe, for the E2C2 comic convention. That was a wonderful time. Got to meeta number of boarders.

The board had changed. And in my heart I know it's good, but my head hates it. I hate that it's virtually impossible to discuss the books or the shows in a proper connect because of the air of superiority exhibited by floob members who've joined because of the show who think they've created this board.

As Mya mentioned, knowing that I can use social media to keep in touch with others is a boon.

[mouse]

I've been privileged to meet GRRM once when invited to a dinner by some of the other Chicago peeps. It read at, I think, the same Greek restaurant mentioned above. George wad in town, I believe, for the E2C2 comic convention. That was a wonderful time. Got to meeta number of boarders.

I just went back through old emails.

The Chicago dinner I referred to was a Sept. 2006 dinner, and it was for sure when George was in town for a model train convention in, I think, Schaumburg. I attended that dinner. I don't remember you being there, Jax.

There was another Chicago dinner in April 2010. I was out of town that weekend, and so I did not attend. I do think it was at the same restaurant, though!

[Jaxom 1974]

I just went back through old emails.

The Chicago dinner I referred to was a Sept. 2006 dinner, and it was for sure when George was in town for a model train convention in, I think, Schaumburg. I attended that dinner. I don't remember you being there, Jax.

There was another Chicago dinner in April 2010. I was out of town that weekend, and so I did not attend. I do think it was at the same restaurant, though!

Yeah. I'm referring to the 2010 one. Pretty sure George was in town that year for the Hedge Knight coming out add a comic.

I could not make, or was not invited, to the 2006 dinner. :p