Heresy 116

[Frey family reunion]

Re: the sheep sacrifice to the WW's, it may have some parallels to what may be behind the dragon taming. In the PatQ, the only wild dragon that was able to be tamed was Sheepsteeler, after he was given numerous "sacrifices" of sheep. Granted more meals than sacrifices, but the parallels are there. I also wonder if it is a coincidence that the group of people who were able to tame dragons were ancient shepherds.

[Jojen]

Its actually in the World Book:

Their song and music was said to be as beautiful as they were, but what they sang of is not remembered save in small fragments handed down from ancient days. Maester Childer's Winter Knights, or the Legends and Lineage of the Starks of Winterfell, contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time that Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children of the forest in raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech which was described as sounding like a song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of children is a tale in itself, and not worth the repeating here. But it seems clear that their speech originated, or drew inspiration from, the sounds they heard everyday, and probably shared much of its beauty.

The Winter Knights sound like WW, no?

[Jojen]

Another thought:

If Craster was only doing what he was told to do (i.e., give his boys to the WW), how long did he intend to keep doing it? How many babies do the WW need? It's possible that some don't survive the transformation, so maybe he figured he'd give them as many as possible until he's told to stop.

Was there a plan in place for when he could no longer "perform" his role, or did he expect his daughter-wives to find someone to be the new Craster? Because if not, that's awfully short-sighted on both sides (Craster and his women and the WW). Granted, that assumes that we know what the WW are up to, which is presumptuous at this point. Maybe he or they thought they'd be rewarded with a second life or immortality of another sort, or at the very least, a prominent position in the new world order if he survived that long. After all, what was it in for any of them other than not to be killed by the WW? Seems like since they have what the WW want, they'd be in a better bargaining position.

[Eira Seren]

If it's true that Craster's sons get turned into White Walkers, then the Nights King was also trying to make White Walkers. What was the Nights King thinking? If the Wall was built to contain the White Walkers, then how were they to get through, if that is the intent? Does it make sense to keep them north? The White Walkers wear ice armor. Was the Nights King making an army?

Where's the betting office, I'm placing my money on The Crystal.

I'm not sure we know the night king was sacrificing to the WW, we know "atrocities" were committed, we know he loved a woman who was probably a female WW and "gave her his seed" and in consequence his soul as well.

That said it would stand to reason than if he loved this WW then he would help him, "giving her is seed" could literally mean making little human/WW hybrids (there is precedent in the Long Night with genders reversed, if you believe Old Nan) or he could mean giving her his children, anyway that would be an atrocity and, if it were a big enough sin in the eyes of the Old Gods, it could mean he forfeited his soul, again this could be more literal, meaning an actual deal making the NK a WW.

That's a good point, now that you mention it. This probably goes back to the Old Gods/ Cold Gods discussion (ie, are they different?). If the Old Gods are in fact the Singers, then my question would be, what do the Singers have against this deal? Even if the Singers and WW are allies at times. . .

Sadly true.

Heresy can't even agree on something trivially simple... like whether Jon had a supernatural sense of Ghost before reencountering him at the end of SoS. This remains the case even given double direct POV statements from Jon to this effect.

Yeah, although sometimes I prefer it that way, variety is nice and to a decent degree keeps us from wholesale blind defense of one particular theory or another. Sadly, we know what that looks like :)

Lacking the information which the books don't provide - not because Old Nan didn't tell but because it hasn't so far at any rate been passed on, we don't know yet, but...

The sacrificing to the Others bit is paralleled by Craster. He sacrifices to the Cold Gods and evidently has been doing for years without anybody getting their knickers in a twist about the Others coming, just as Mormont expresses his concern at the white walkers on the shore but doesn't blow a trople blast on the horn and warn everyone to bar the gates and lock up their daughters. We can safely assume that there was no great invasion or attempted invasion while the Nights King was sacrificing, but we can't assume that the blue-eyed lot weren't coming in the night to collect their tithe to hell.

As to Joruman and the Stark of Winterfell, there is likewise no mention of a battle with white walkers and their undead followers; it was the Nights King who was defeated, not the blue-eyed lot. It might however be not unreasonable to interpret this as a premptive move; to prevent the blue-eyed lot coming down from the north at some future time.

That's my guess, too. The only other way I'd see it is if we conflate the story of the NK's defeat with with the Battle for the Dawn. I know we've been over that before, and if I recall there are some factors that don't quite work out (timelines being one). So I agree, it's a preventative measure.

[redrose]

I agree with that but, there was a foundation laid for that,meaning in a world where telapathic creatures are prevelent and they opt to communicate in dreams that would serve as a bridge where language is a problem" First contact" would have most likely been as i say through tree,crow or wolf dreams.The language part would come after.I don't see how first contact in WW case would be established,and therin is the problem "first contact" would not be a pleasent affair a human would run the first time this weird thing shows up and feinting friendship then asking for babies wouldn't fly i think. Lastly,we have had no WWs speaking the common tongue since they showed up.Why not retain the language if that ever happened.They have amnesia too?

Nah this whole think started with exposure and as i said it so happen something did pick up the baby and kept doing it.Unless,we can proove WWs can establish a telepathic link to humans.

I think the communication between races is definitely a problem but may also be a key point. IIRC there is only leaf that can communicate with bran et al in the cave and there are very few instances of CoTF being able to talk the common tongue throughout the story.( it may in fact be the only one and i will stand corrected if there are other instances).

[wolfmaid7]

Another thought:

If Craster was only doing what he was told to do (i.e., give his boys to the WW), how long did he intend to keep doing it? How many babies do the WW need? It's possible that some don't survive the transformation, so maybe he figured he'd give them as many as possible until he's told to stop.

Was there a plan in place for when he could no longer "perform" his role, or did he expect his daughter-wives to find someone to be the new Craster? Because if not, that's awfully short-sighted on both sides (Craster and his women and the WW). Granted, that assumes that we know what the WW are up to, which is presumptuous at this point. Maybe he or they thought they'd be rewarded with a second life or immortality of another sort, or at the very least, a prominent position in the new world order if he survived that long. After all, what was it in for any of them other than not to be killed by the WW? Seems like since they have what the WW want, they'd be in a better bargaining position.

This is one of the reasons i and others have proposed it was not a ritual started by Craster.He was just a harvest child himself saved over when his predecessor died.Lets say Craster,didn't meet his death at the hands of the NW,it would have happened eventually,by the slow decay of time he would have succumed to death....Then what would have happened to the women. Choices are Craster would have gotten to old so

1. The moment he proved to frail they would have kept a harvest child.It's kind of what happened anyway because Craster did die and they did keep a harvest child.

2. Take advantage of the axe to get rid of the now frail and usless seed donor eventually.

3. It is inevitable, a few visitors would have come upon them in the meantime and get their freak on with those who had their moonblood.Babies wouldn't be in short supply,the women are the bloodline that never changes.When monster come of age establish him as the new donor.

I think the communication between races is definitely a problem but may also be a key point. IIRC there is only leaf that can communicate with bran et al in the cave and there are very few instances of CoTF being able to talk the common tongue throughout the story.( it may in fact be the only one and i will stand corrected if there are other instances).

What's interesting is that according to Leaf "she speaks the common tongue for Bran's sake" and their is a desire there for communication.I see no precedence for that happening at the Keep. Woman has a baby Craster exposes him X picks up child.There seems to be no interaction beyond that.

[addicted to snow]

In ASoS's, when Jon interrogates Gilly: Why do you think GRRM had Jon ask such poorly worded questions & jump to conclusions?

Was GRRM's trying to show:

• That Jon is an total idiot, and incapable using sound interrogation or reasoning practices? or
  
• Was GRRM trying to hide something that was related to their conversation? (specifically, Gilly's side of the conversation)
  

If you think that GRRM was trying to hide something then you just won a new car!!!

[Melifeather]

Re: the sheep sacrifice to the WW's, it may have some parallels to what may be behind the dragon taming. In the PatQ, the only wild dragon that was able to be tamed was Sheepsteeler, after he was given numerous "sacrifices" of sheep. Granted more meals than sacrifices, but the parallels are there. I also wonder if it is a coincidence that the group of people who were able to tame dragons were ancient shepherds.

Wasn't Mirri Maz Duur from a tribe known as "lamb people"? The Lhazareen were peaceful people, but viewed by the Dothraki as weak and timid. Mirri also knew spells. Could her people be the same shepherds that tamed dragons?

[JNR]

variety is nice and to a decent degree keeps us from wholesale blind defense of one particular theory or another. Sadly, we know what that looks like :)

A very sound point. Better too many ideas than too few.

In ASoS's, when Jon interrogates Gilly: Why do you think GRRM had Jon ask such poorly worded questions & jump to conclusions?

Was GRRM's trying to show:

• That Jon is an total idiot, and incapable using sound interrogation or reasoning practices? or

Was GRRM trying to hide something that was related to their conversation? (specifically, Gilly's side of the conversation)

If you think that GRRM was trying to hide something then you just won a new car!!!

Ah, yes, the infamous "Jon failed to ask Gilly if she ever actually saw an Other" exchange. I remember it well.

[Black Crow]

A very sound point. Better too many ideas than too few.

Ah, yes, the infamous "Jon failed to ask Gilly if she ever actually saw an Other" exchange. I remember it well.

As to the first yes, the point of heresy is not to promote or defend a particular theory.

As to the second, I think too much significance is being laid on the words of Jon's questions. Gilly says Craster gives up his sons to the Cold Gods. Said "cold gods" come and go and don't sound like wights but their masters, as he's heard of from Old Nan. He asks about their eyes, she tells him. It is therefore an entirely reasonable inference that she has indeed seen them, without getting picky about the form of words. :cool4:

[Eira Seren]

Well, I didn't see anything much heretical in this week's episode. The last one this season is called "The Children," so I'll be chewing on my fingernails til then.

I can see why, if they're trying to preserve the Craster bloodline, the wives might send Monster to the Wall. It does seem a bit shortsighted, though, considering they're about to be under attack. But until he's much older, he's not really going to be a great asset for them?

[Blade of Sunlight]

My only problem with the wives sending Monster across the Wall and preferably "somewhere warm" only to get him back is that I see no compelling reasons for him to return, and no reasons for them to expect him to.

It's a lot more comfortable to live in a moderate climate, not having to deal with widlings and the NW.

As for the reasons for him to return, a number of old female relatives for him to reproduce with, an hypothetical privileged place with the WW. The only real reason for him to return (that I see) would be brainwash by Gily, but she didn't appear to like the place either...

[lokisnow]

the only thing of interest to heresy is that it is crucial to the plot that Stannis' daughter is at the wall. The show won't be doing anything with her this season nefarious but she is being maneuvered very publicly and consciously, making sure everyone knows she's going there, and that something big is in her future at the wall.

Theories that do well on the forums tend to be those with small ideas that explore older, very established theories in new ways, reinforcing or illuminating them, instead of contradicting them.

Here's an example. In my time on the forums, I've seen a guy trot out a theory of Lightbringer that (IMO, obviously) was bang on the money. He made a logical case, backed it up with ample evidence, presented it clearly, and in short, just destroyed all competing theories.

And he got nowhere... because Apple Martini had already popularized the (IMO incorrect) theory that Lightbringer is the Night's Watch.

Be careful with theories, no matter how pretty they are or good it feels, a theory can still bite your cock off.

Lightbringer is just a sword. A hunk of metal swung by some rough bastard who told grand stories about himself. There are lots of guys swinging hunks of metal around westeros and telling grand stories about themselves. Ice was just a sword. Needle is just a sword. As is Longclaw or Dawn. There's nothing special about any of them, and one thing I feel sure of is that Martin is never going to have someone wielding a magic sword that makes a man king. Martin is probably going to show the guy that wields a sword is only wielding a fake and telling lies about what he's done to deserve to be king. He's already show us Stannis wields a fake sword, he's not going to give Stannis a really, real all magical Excaliber with light up glitter effects (batteries not included). The whole magic sword fetish is barking up the wrong series.

If it's true that Craster's sons get turned into White Walkers, then the Nights King was also trying to make White Walkers. What was the Nights King thinking? If the Wall was built to contain the White Walkers, then how were they to get through, if that is the intent? Does it make sense to keep them north? The White Walkers wear ice armor. Was the Nights King making an army?

Perhaps The Night's King made sacrifices and created White Walkers that were builders rather than rangers, so perhaps he wasn't building an army. Perhaps he had his men building a wall that would define his keep. Once the wall was built, it would be his, and none would be able to challenge him, nor his domain. He grabbed what he could take and kept what he could grab. It's a delusion to think he lost. ;)

Was GRRM's trying to show:

• 
  
  • • That Jon is an total idiot, and incapable using sound interrogation or reasoning practices? or

Oh definitely this one. Jon is neither clever nor smart. he's not Tyrion nor is he Sam. Jon leaping to unsupported conclusions is what he consistently does through all four books. ADWD amply illustrated this as every chapter featured Jon winning a tactical point but losing the strategic war. I'm talking the all important politics and relationships, naturally. He was profoundly terrible at the most important part of leadership: the alliance building. he was a good decider-in-chief, but Martin showed over and over again that he was a pretty terrible leader for the night's watch.

[Melifeather]

After Melisandre showed Selyce her "magic" powdered and what not and stated how she uses lies to lead people to the Lord of Light, I think that she is lying about whether or not Shireen is still infectious. I think she means to bring greyscale to the Wall. Val's warning to Jon about Shireen being "unclean" makes me think that greyscale has a part to play in the story.

The other part that stood out was the man Arya and the Hound came upon slowly bleeding out. He talked about there not being any balance anymore and how agreements are "you give me this and I'll give you that". That had to have been a set-up for the audience to point out the lack of balance. It also seemed to make Daenerys look too harsh. Her "I will answer injustice with justice" is looking more and more barbaric and "unbalanced". It may also help set the foundation for when we meet the Children/Singers.

[avernite]

After Melisandre showed Selyce her "magic" powdered and what not and stated how she uses lies to lead people to the Lord of Light, I think that she is lying about whether or not Shireen is still infectious. I think she means to bring greyscale to the Wall. Val's warning to Jon about Shireen being "unclean" makes me think that greyscale has a part to play in the story.

I dunno, why would a hillbilly from some frozen wasteland know more about greyscale than a whole order of semi-doctors covering a continent? That Val may know more about the Old Gods makes some sense, they're a bit of an odd thing in the 7 kingdoms, but a disease that just spreads fine in there?

I think it's more likely meant to show that, knowledgeable though she is, Val doesn't know everything.

[GoldenVale]

The other part that stood out was the man Arya and the Hound came upon slowly bleeding out. He talked about there not being any balance anymore and how agreements are "you give me this and I'll give you that". That had to have been a set-up for the audience to point out the lack of balance. It also seemed to make Daenerys look too harsh. Her "I will answer injustice with justice" is looking more and more barbaric and "unbalanced". It may also help set the foundation for when we meet the Children/Singers.

I think you're reading too much int it. That seems like a mighty weak set up for a concept that's barely been touched upon in show so far. Especially since it concerns a concept that's been pretty vague in the books themselves.

I think it's likely just there to keep in with one of the general themes of this episode: An eye for an eye. As you already mentioned there's Dany's view of justice, then there's Oberyn's quest for vengeance, the nature of Bronn and Tyrion's relationship and so on and so forth.

I dunno, why would a hillbilly from some frozen wasteland know more about greyscale than a whole order of semi-doctors covering a continent? That Val may know more about the Old Gods makes some sense, they're a bit of an odd thing in the 7 kingdoms, but a disease that just spreads fine in there?

I think it's more likely meant to show that, knowledgeable though she is, Val doesn't know everything.

Also, to a lesser extent, it's another way to highlighter the harsher realities beyond the Wall. But I certainly agree that there's not much to makes us certain that she knows what she's talking about when she talks about grey-scale.

[Frey family reunion]

Wasn't Mirri Maz Duur from a tribe known as "lamb people"? The Lhazareen were peaceful people, but viewed by the Dothraki as weak and timid. Mirri also knew spells. Could her people be the same shepherds that tamed dragons?

No I think it was specified that they were a seperate tribe of shepherds than the Valyrians.

[JNR]

As to the second, I think too much significance is being laid on the words of Jon's questions. Gilly says Craster gives up his sons to the Cold Gods. Said "cold gods" come and go and don't sound like wights but their masters, as he's heard of from Old Nan. He asks about their eyes, she tells him. It is therefore an entirely reasonable inference that she has indeed seen them, without getting picky about the form of words. :cool4:

It's a reasonable inference, yes.

However, it's just as reasonable an inference that what happens in the books is the same as what's shown on HBO. Craster dumps his sons in the woods, the rangers are aware of this, and it results in Mormont's remark that all the rangers know Craster gives his sons to the wood. The wives in this case would never see the Others. Craster himself may not ever have seen the Others.

Of course, the show isn't canon. My point isn't that the above happens, but merely that -- based on Gilly's remarks -- it is as likely or more likely than a scenario in which the wives see an Other take a baby.

And as AtS pointed out, it's very strange that Jon never simply asks Gilly if she has seen an Other. He also never realizes that he himself knows the Others' eye color even though he has never seen one. He is the irrefutable proof that his test isn't a very good one.

[JNR]

the only thing of interest to heresy is that it is crucial to the plot that Stannis' daughter is at the wall. The show won't be doing anything with her this season nefarious but she is being maneuvered very publicly and consciously, making sure everyone knows she's going there, and that something big is in her future at the wall.

Yes, this was such a huge departure from canon it got my attention too.

Lightbringer is just a sword. A hunk of metal swung by some rough bastard who told grand stories about himself. There are lots of guys swinging hunks of metal around westeros and telling grand stories about themselves. Ice was just a sword. Needle is just a sword. As is Longclaw or Dawn. There's nothing special about any of them, and one thing I feel sure of is that Martin is never going to have someone wielding a magic sword that makes a man king.

Quite agree about the boldfaced. In fact, I think I'm on record that Jon, in particular, will never be King of Westeros under any circumstances. :cool4:

However, I remain confident that Lightbringer is not the Night's Watch. It's about as absurd as the idea that Jon himself is Lightbringer.

[Jon] was profoundly terrible at the most important part of leadership: the alliance building. he was a good decider-in-chief, but Martin showed over and over again that he was a pretty terrible leader for the night's watch.

I think in the end we will find that the alliances he built with the wildlings trump the alliances he failed to accomplish with the likes of Bowen Marsh.

I wouldn't call him a terrible leader, but a naive one, that he never saw obvious things coming. He shouldn't have needed to ask "Why?" when he was stabbed. (In this he is similar to Robb, who similarly should have expected a bit more from Walder Frey than he did.)

I am also curious what Jon's reasoning was in sending Sam to the Citadel. Apparently he thought he had the luxury of years for Sam to be trained and return... but why I couldn't tell you, since he knows where the Fist is relative to the Wall and he knows perfectly well what happened there. And he hasn't got years.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

@Harlan:

As always, with any theory, the burden of proof is not on doubters, to falsify a theory.

The burden of proof is on those who set forth the theory, to demonstrate it as correct by showing that it fits the evidence of the fictional world, and answers pertinent questions. So far, there's never been a theory of this sort that fits the provided evidence (in my opinion).

For instance, by demonstrating how... if Craster is an expert on the Others and what they want... he could possibly think it was a good idea to offer them a sheep.

I do agree with you that there could conceivably be a Craster's Sons = Others theory, either on the forums or in the books, that explains problematic facts such as the above.

Here's another theory: Jon will eventually be king of Westeros, and AAR, and the PtwP, and sit the Iron Throne, and marry Dany. Just like the theory of Craster's sons being the Others, this is a widely-accepted notion, seen by some as de facto canon and confidently asserted nearly every day in the forums.

Personally I find it improbable, and would (just as I would about the origin of Others) be happy to accept any wager of any size on this topic.

But it's certainly not impossible. I certainly can't "falsify" it, and wouldn't try. Only a complete fool would start throwing around odds like 0% or 100% for any theory involving this series.

I struggle with why Craster putting sheep out there as well as his sons is so confounding for accepting that Craster's Sons = Others (in some manner, be it through direct transformation or possession and creation of Ice Golems)...

To me, it's clear that Craster never had direct contact with the Others. He's clearly following some older belief (likely from his father, or matrilineally(sp?) through his first wife), of "sacrificing" to the "Cold Gods" for protection.

We are told that "when the cold winds rise" is when he takes a sacrifice out to them. To me, this is simply an indication that an Other is out there in the woods, bringing the "cold wind" with them, and that's his clue to lay out a sacrifice. When he doesn't have a son to sacrifice, he thinks that he needs to offer them something to keep this "protection" going. We're told that the "Cold Gods" have been coming more often recently, thus the need to try offering them sheep, as he values them, and thus they make a good sacrifice. It's really not much different than other blood sacrificing religions, other than it's especially brutal to require all his sons as sacrifices.

So the fact that the Others have come when there was no son available indicates that they don't "sense" that another candidate (ie Craster's son...) is present, they are simply moving through the area for other purposes. As for what the "Cold Gods" are doing with the sheep, it's fairly irrelevant, but my guess is they get sacrificed in front of a heart tree, in the way of the Old Gods. But they could simply leave them to the wolves or other animals to dispose of if they have no use for them.