Heresy 116

[Queen Alienor]

Does anybody think that the King of Winter is a title similar to the Sword of the Morning, which is passed to the most worthy Stark? I really suspect that Brandon Ice Eyes had some power over the winter and in ADwD, it is possible that Bran sent that weird snow storm around Winterfell. In both cases, the winds come howling from the north.

I think that's problematic, because maybe the King in the North is not always the most worthy Stark, so there would be a King in the North and a King of Winter at the same time. An arrangement like that is bound to lead to the question of who is more important and, eventually, to a civil war. Now there's not saying there wasn't a civil war, but we haven't heared of any yet and so I would assume there was none at this point.

If the King of Winter is the most worthy Stark who is chosen as King in the North, we have basically the same problem: Wherever there is power to be had, there is going to be a fight. When there are for example to brothers who both consider themselves the most worthy Stark, we are faced with another civil war.

So basically, no, I don't think the title is given to the most worthy Stark. I think it is mostly a title used to spread fear, like Robb was called "The Young Wolf".

[Melifeather]

I think we've discussed different ideas including:

1) the Kings of Winter reign during winter

2) it was an earlier title previous to King in the North

3) Kings of Winter encompass a larger realm, whereas King in the North implies there are other Kings in Westeros

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

So, do you think Bloodraven lied when he said he was unable to affect change with his brother and former lover? I don't have the exact passage handy, but do you think Bloodraven tried, or did he lie?

It rather depends who Bloodraven really is these days. After all he has a weirwood root growing through his brain. Is it Bloodraven who speaks out of his mouth or is it the Old Gods?

It's a good question, and worth looking at some other differences between the two of them. For example - both come from houses/castles with godswoods and heart trees; but the heart tree at Raventree Hall is petrified and dead, whereas that at Winterfell is very much alive. Further, although the Blackwoods themselves still keep their petrified weirwood, the general populace in the Riverlands (around Raventree) doesn't necessarily keep the old gods these days (as far as we know). In contrast, Winterfell, the seat of House Stark, sits in the heart of what remains of the old gods' faithful south of the Wall. Not to say it's necessarily this simple, but maybe Bran benefits from his connection to a stronger, more vital and active weirwood network - where trees and old gods continue to be honored, and perhaps receive a blood sacrifice every now and again.

I'm also not entirely sure that Winterfell doesn't guard an "old power" of its very own down in its crypts - a power separate from, and not necessarily aligned with, those who have drawn Bran beyond-the-Wall. What that means for Bran himself, and his connection to the Winterfell tree, I'm not sure. But if there are competing factions among the COTF, it may be that Bran has been co-opted as a sort of spy/hostage by one side...

ETA - Corrected omitted word...

[redriver]

First I would like to point out that I do not believe in direct symmetries between ice and fire, they are to opposing and opposite forces but their weapons are not the same.

About the stone men being the fire equivalent to WW/Wights, aren't we told somewhere that the stone men are the result of a curse of a Rhoynar king to the Valyrians? If so then thy wouldn't be aligned with fire.

(I will post it when I find it but I think it's in the extracts from the world guide)

This is an excellent point.We have been guilty of looking for this direct symmetry here where in fact it does not exist,nor was ever intended by the author.

I don't think the stone men idea is going anywhere fast either.

[redriver]

Does anybody think that the King of Winter is a title similar to the Sword of the Morning, which is passed to the most worthy Stark? I really suspect that Brandon Ice Eyes had some power over the winter and in ADwD, it is possible that Bran sent that weird snow storm around Winterfell. In both cases, the winds come howling from the north.

The winds categorically did did not come "howling from the north" in ADWD.The winter storm starts at Winterfell before reaching the Wall "from the south" a considerable time later.

That's not to say that Bran didn't have anything to do with it.I prefer the broader term -old gods,but it's a possibility.

[Mithras]

The winds categorically did did not come "howling from the north" in ADWD.The winter storm starts at Winterfell before reaching the Wall "from the south" a considerable time later.

That's not to say that Bran didn't have anything to do with it.I prefer the broader term -old gods,but it's a possibility.

By that time, the rest of Bolton’s army had arrived. They raised King Tommen’s stag and lion above the walls of Winterfell as the wind came howling from the north, and below it the flayed man of the Dreadfort.

It looks like after the alien banners were raised in Winterfell (which was an act of defiance), a power responded to it by sending the cold winds from the north. Then the winter storm focused on Winterfell started and expanded outward.

[redriver]

It looks like after the alien banners were raised in Winterfell (which was an act of defiance), a power responded to it by sending the cold winds from the north. Then the winter storm focused on Winterfell started and expanded outward.

I could live with that interpretation,though I think the marriage of Ramsay to fArya was the real game changer as far as the old gods are concerned.No Stark in Winterfell now.

[Jojen]

I can see why, if they're trying to preserve the Craster bloodline, the wives might send Monster to the Wall. It does seem a bit shortsighted, though, considering they're about to be under attack. But until he's much older, he's not really going to be a great asset for them?

My only problem with the wives sending Monster across the Wall and preferably "somewhere warm" only to get him back is that I see no compelling reasons for him to return, and no reasons for them to expect him to.

It's a lot more comfortable to live in a moderate climate, not having to deal with widlings and the NW.

As for the reasons for him to return, a number of old female relatives for him to reproduce with, an hypothetical privileged place with the WW. The only real reason for him to return (that I see) would be brainwash by Gily, but she didn't appear to like the place either...

Unless they're taking the long view, in case the attack on the Wall fails (or even expecting it). Then Monster is in place to carry out whatever Plan B might then be, from the South.

Lightbringer is just a sword. A hunk of metal swung by some rough bastard who told grand stories about himself. There are lots of guys swinging hunks of metal around westeros and telling grand stories about themselves. Ice was just a sword. Needle is just a sword. As is Longclaw or Dawn. There's nothing special about any of them, and one thing I feel sure of is that Martin is never going to have someone wielding a magic sword that makes a man king. Martin is probably going to show the guy that wields a sword is only wielding a fake and telling lies about what he's done to deserve to be king. He's already show us Stannis wields a fake sword, he's not going to give Stannis a really, real all magical Excaliber with light up glitter effects (batteries not included). The whole magic sword fetish is barking up the wrong series.

However, I remain confident that Lightbringer is not the Night's Watch. It's about as absurd as the idea that Jon himself is Lightbringer.

Do you have a theory about what 'Lightbringer' is then? If you do, please share. I too have never been a fan of the Night's watch equals lightbringer theory, simply because it seems to me that the Nights watch will be dissolved by the first Wall POV in WoW, based on the current state of the watch at the end of dance....

I'll say it again: Lightbringer won't be a sword and it won't be a person. It will be knowledge or Truth that is wielded by AA/PTWP, casting light on what's really going on in the world.

[King Benjen II]

I meant two of the posts within the link were made by you.

Oh then for some reason it isn't showing my name on the quotes. Maybe it's cuz I'm on the mobile version.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Oh then for some reason it isn't showing my name on the quotes. Maybe it's cuz I'm on the mobile version.

I think she means in the linked thread instead of in the section of quotes I pulled out of it.

[Harlan]

I'll say it again: Lightbringer won't be a sword and it won't be a person. It will be knowledge or Truth that is wielded by AA/PTWP, casting light on what's really going on in the world.

I'm personally of the opinion that, just as there are many potential Azor Ahais, there will be many potential lightbringers. I will be very surprised if, at the end of the series, the plot is as simple as azor ahai finding his lightbringer and correcting the world.

[Melifeather]

I've just finished reading the excerpt from the upcoming World book from Elio and Linda regarding the Rhoynar. It does state that greyscale was a curse called down upon the Valyrians as revenge for the defeat of the Rhoynar. It shouldn't discredit the possibility that the stone men could become stone dragons, in fact it could lend some credence to the idea. I could see the Valyrians trying to turn a curse into a weapon, much like it appears that wights are being used as a weapon.

[Jojen]

I'm personally of the opinion that, just as there are many potential Azor Ahais, there will be many potential lightbringers. I will be very surprised if, at the end of the series, the plot is as simple as azor ahai finding his lightbringer and correcting the world.

I actually agree. It's definitely possible that AA is more than one person. I'm still holding to the idea that Lightbringer is a metaphor.

Someone once said that we will never fully realize Truth. The best we can do is move ever closer to it. That's why all opinions and beliefs are valid, because they all harbor a seed of Truth. Shutting them down because you don't agree with them leads you further from it.

[King Benjen II]

I think she means in the linked thread instead of in the section of quotes I pulled out of it.

I looked through the entire thread and didn't see myself. I will look again.

Edit: No luck this time either. I was King Tyrion back then, but I don't know what thread I would've said those quotes in. I think she means Ser Wun Wun quoted me twice in that post.

[Blade of Sunlight]

[...]

So there's definitely an established precedent for some kind of (potentially) mutually-beneficial relationship - and my assumption would be that the COTF require a human greenseer in order to affect or influence human affairs in some particular way. Where that raises questions (and suspicions) for me, is at the point where Leaf and Bloodraven caution Bran against trying to actually affect change in his capacity as a greenseer. Basically they tell him - your job is to watch; do not attempt to change outcomes. Well, that is clearly a front for some kind of magical activism - there is no point to watching, and knowing, if not to provide some basis for action (whether Bran's or somebody else's). So for me the questions raised are how long it takes before Bran challenges that injunction ("don't even try") and, of course, what the consequences will be once he does.

[...]

BR is clearly able and willing to affect change, if nothing else he brought Bran to his cave and had Coldhands help Sam. I believe he means Bran cannot change the past (i.e. saving his family), BR is simply trying to avoid Bran the pain of trying for years to change what has already come to pass, i.e. Bran not to be stuck in a moment he can't get out of.

“But,” said Bran, “he heard me.”

“He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it.”

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

BR is clearly able and willing to affect change, if nothing else he brought Bran to his cave and had Coldhands help Sam. I believe he means Bran cannot change the past (i.e. saving his family), BR is simply trying to avoid Bran the pain of trying for years to change what has already come to pass, i.e. Bran not to be stuck in a moment he can't get out of.

.

You're right - and I stand corrected. It is not all attempts to affect outcome, but attempts to change past outcomes, against which Bran is advised.

Still, I'm not sold on the idea that these boundaries are completely legit, or that it is for Bran's benefit they've been defined.

.

[King Benjen II]

Theon heard whispers in ADWD from the trees and he thought it was Bran.

And the Ned scene.

I believe Bran will become powerful enough to actually have conversations with people through the trees.

[addicted to snow]

Still, I'm not sold on the idea that these boundaries are completely legit, or that it is for Bran's benefit they've been defined.

I agree 100% with this statement...

--

Bran is clearly more powerful that Bloodraven & bran will surpass Bloodraven (as it was foreshadowed in the GoTs during Bran's Coma Dream)… Bran will probably be able to up-root trees & make them walk & fight - much like the tales that the Greyjoy Girl recalls in ADWDs...

[addicted to snow]

So there's definitely an established precedent for some kind of (potentially) mutually-beneficial relationship - and my assumption would be that the COTF require a human greenseer in order to affect or influence human affairs in some particular way. Where that raises questions (and suspicions) for me, is at the point where Leaf and Bloodraven caution Bran against trying to actually affect change in his capacity as a greenseer. Basically they tell him - your job is to watch; do not attempt to change outcomes. Well, that is clearly a front for some kind of magical activism - there is no point to watching, and knowing, if not to provide some basis for action (whether Bran's or somebody else's). So for me the questions raised are how long it takes before Bran challenges that injunction ("don't even try") and, of course, what the consequences will be once he does.

The underlined portion of the above statement was not my take on their discussions with Bran...

I think they were telling Ban that he can't (does not have the power to) change the past… the present & future are all together different...

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

The underlined portion of the above statement was not my take on their discussions with Bran...

I think they were telling Ban that he can't (does not have the power to) change the past the present & future are all together different...

You and Blade of Sunlight, both... (see above).

The weirwoods-through-time concept is still intriguing, and it looks like a potential "slippery slope" that I'm interested to see how Martin handles. He wants to avoid "mechanical" explanations and rules for magic... but joining Bran to the supposed collective consciousness of the old gods introduces a host of paradoxical questions that quite bend the mind.