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[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa X: Cold never bothered her anyway...


Mladen

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Yeah, when he slew Dontos she actually giggled!

This is reminding me of the people saying that she should have been able to spinning-dragon-kick Lysa out the Moon Door.

Come on, she should have fought her way out of King's Landing. It is known.

A few days ago I saw someone (not on this forum) say that she didn't want to leave King's Landing and that's why she didn't take any of the "many chances" to leave, because she liked the "comfort" and riches more than being with her family. *double facepalm*

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... And reportedly someone said (not on this forum) that Sansa will feed Sweetrobin as pies to Baelish since he confessed to be the boy's father. ;)

We can find all kinds of stuff out there in the big bad world wide web

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And she shows fear exactly how?

By screaming and stifling sobs? I know what you mean though, in that she's pretty direct with him, but I don't think it's much of a departure. Saying that Book!Sansa is "afraid" of LF is a bit reductive. I think she's mistrustful and a bit creeped out, but not really afraid.

He is serving me lies as well, Sansa realized. They were comforting lies, though, and she thought them kindly meant. A lie is not so bad if it is kindly meant. If only she believed them...

He saved Alayne, his daughter, a voice within her whispered. But she was Sansa too... and sometimes it seemed to her that the Lord Protector was two people as well. He was Petyr, her protector, warm and funny and gentle... but he was also Littlefinger, the lord she’d known at King’s Landing, smiling slyly and stroking his beard as he whispered in Queen Cersei’s ear. And Littlefinger was no friend of hers. When Joff had her beaten, the Imp defended her, not Littlefinger. When the mob sought to rape her, the Hound carried her to safety, not Littlefinger. When the Lannisters wed her to Tyrion against her will, Ser Garlan the Gallant gave her comfort, not Littlefinger. Littlefinger never lifted so much as his little finger for her.

Except to get me out. He did that for me. I thought it was Ser Dontos, my poor old drunken Florian, but it was Petyr all the while. Littlefinger was only a mask he had to wear. Only sometimes Sansa found it hard to tell where the man ended and the mask began. Littlefinger and Lord Petyr looked so very much alike. She would have fled them both, perhaps, but there was nowhere for her to go.

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I think it is a positive thing that Turner's age and looks make it difficult for the show to further emphazise the "helpless girl" direction. I do not understand, Annara, why you deny her the agency show Sansa has so much more - or takes herself so much more - than book Sansa. Show Sansa is an improvement imo, she promises a better story than book Sansa.

But I guess the show just condenses her story and takes it there where it was meant to go anyway by Martin.

What agency? The show has denied her even the agency she managed to have in the book despite her equally helpless position. No bravely going to the wood at night to meet the anonymous person who promises to help her escape, carrying a knife; no planning her escape.

You seem to have a very odd idea about "agency". Like, if I say that Gilly was sexually abused by her father, you'd probably say that I'm denying her "agency", and that maybe she made him think she liked to have sex with him sometimes to get a bit more food or avoid a beating, and if she did, that made her empowered and emotionally mature.

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Um, Sansa and Baelish can't be "partners in crime", let alone consensual lovers :rolleyes: and that has little to do with whether she's 13, 15 or 17 (let alone her height; seriously? That's a ridiculous argument. I guess show!Joffrey should have never had any power, especially not over all those big strong men who obeyed him). Being partners implies a more or less equal relationship. What we have here is a massive power disbalance between one of the politically most powerful men in Westeros, and a girl in a helpless position, with no family, no one to turn to, nowhere to go, who's wanted by the crown for a crime she was framed for (by this very same powerful man) and must hide her identity unless someone takes her to King's Landing to be tried and executed. In addition, this powerful man is now girl's legal guardian in the eyes of the world, and she has little choice but to hope that the powerful man will keep protecting her from being taken to the queen and getting her head chopped off, and that, preferably, he will not make her his sex slave yet.

As for a potential "consensual love affair" between Sansa and LF, that would be like saying Craster relationships with his daughter-wives was consensual.

Not really. A better potential comparator would be Dany/Drogo. Their love relationship could never be truly consensual, as many of the factors you list for Petyr and Sansa were also present in that relationship--power imbalance, underage girl, helpless and friendless girl on the run with nowhere to go and no one to turn to, massively powerful man who could treat her as a sex slave if he wished to, any consent is considered negated where a partner is underage (statutory rape), etc.--and yet despite these factors, GRRM sold the relationship they ultimately had as a consensual one and even as a love story that Dany found empowering. TLDR, GRRM's done this before.

Also, arguing that a power imbalance means that GRRM won't go for a love affair between politically powerful man X and far less powerful girl Y strikes me as odd. If anything, GRRM has founded many of the few seemingly healthy, "consensual" relationships in the books on such huge power imbalances: Tyrion/Tysha (while it lasted), Oberyn/Ellaria, Illyrio/Serra, Dany/Drogo, even Daemon/Nettles in TPATQ.

I think by "consensual love affair," what's meant is "about as consensual as it could be under the circumstances, taking into account all the things that militate against free consent, like the power imbalance, Sansa being underage, Sansa's desperate circumstances, etc." The use of the word "consensual" is a bit dicey, but I think it's meant to distinguish from scenarios where, say, LF turns Sansa into his sex slave or where Sansa coldly seduces LF for her own ends and feigns love for him. Maybe "pseudo consensual" is a better way of putting it: not truly consensual, but closer to Dany/Drogo than to Ramsay/Jeyne.

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Not really. A better potential comparator would be Dany/Drogo. Their love relationship could never be truly consensual, as many of the factors you list for Petyr and Sansa were also present in that relationship--power imbalance, underage girl, helpless and friendless girl on the run with nowhere to go and no one to turn to, massively powerful man who could treat her as a sex slave if he wished to, any consent is considered negated where a partner is underage (statutory rape), etc.--and yet despite these factors, GRRM sold the relationship they ultimately had as a consensual one and even as a love story that Dany found empowering. TLDR, GRRM's done this before.

I think by "consensual love affair," what's meant is "about as consensual as it could be under the circumstances, taking into account all the things that militate against free consent, like the power imbalance, Sansa being underage, Sansa's desperate circumstances, etc." The use of the word "consensual" is a bit dicey, but I think it's meant to distinguish from scenarios where, say, LF turns Sansa into his sex slave or where Sansa coldly seduces LF for her own ends and feigns love for him. Maybe "pseudo consensual" is a better way of putting it: not truly consensual, but closer to Dany/Drogo than to Ramsay/Jeyne.

This has been perfectly covered by another poster in a book thread, which saves me the time to write an answer.

I seriously doubt it, but I am disturbed by how some people here seem to not only think Sansa will be sexually abused by LF, but apparently are looking forward to it, or think the only way a Sansa chapter could be "controversial" is if it involves sexual abuse. Or think that GRRM is such a hack writer that he'll delve into detailed POV descriptions of sexual abuse just for the shock value. Yes GRRM mentions sexual abuse and rape many times but it's not described in detail (to the point some fans, for example, overlook what Arya witnessed at Harrenhal.) Even what happens to Jeyne Poole is addressed in a very subtle manner, no graphic descriptions, just enough for the reader to know what a monster Ramsay is.

As for comparisons to Drogo/Dany, the BIG difference is that Drogo treated her as a wife, not a daughter. Now, considering the Dothraki culture that doesn't mean he treated her as an equal peer, I personally think he didn't treat her that well early in the marriage. But, it was Dany herself who took the initiative to learn more about sex, not just passively taking "lessons", and assert herself as a more equal partner, and Drogo actually loved her for her "fierceness" and came to actually take what she said seriously, to the point of letting her defy centuries of Dothraki tradition when she defended the Lamb Women from rape.

LF, on the other hand, is presenting himself as BOTH father-figure and lover, and demanding inappropriate kisses from her AS a father, not as a suitor. That's what makes his obsession with Sansa so creepy, that he's specifically using his position as an authority figure to coerce her into sexual activity. It's the M.O. of many real life predators who sexually abuse both children and teenagers, they don't approach them as they would a peer, they take jobs such as teacher, sports coach, Boy Scout leader, etc., that already give them power over their victims, and use that power to take advantage of them. Do you really think LF would like it if Sansa asserted herself and wanted a more equal partnership? I don't. That's a big difference between Sansa and Dany's situations, even if their ages are similar.

BTW, as mambru mentioned Lysa, While many fans discussing LF and Sansa think Sansa is "Cat 2.0" to him, I actually think that much of LF's behavior toward Sansa is based on what worked for him earlier with Lysa. Lysa actually seems impressed by LF's "cleverness" when he tells her to kill Jon Arryn and blame the Lannisters for it, and I think LF spent a lot of time bragging about his schemes to Lysa as well, knowing she was too besotted with him to oppose anything (except, perhaps, anything that would jeopardize SR's welfare, it seems LF sold his plans to Lysa as either (1) What we need to do so we can finally be together and (2) What we need to do to keep SR safe.) Now, I don't think LF plans to discard Sansa as he did Lysa, but for all we know, if LF never met Sansa, he'd have kept Lysa around as "Cat 2.0".

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What agency? The show has denied her even the agency she managed to have in the book despite her equally helpless position. No bravely going to the wood at night to meet the anonymous person who promises to help her escape, carrying a knife; no planning her escape.

Sansa actively challenges Baelish and asks the right questions. This will forward her taking part far more than getting fooled by the fool with Florian and Jonquil stories. If "taking part" will go the way everybody in these forums likes or if she will go a different road some do not enjoy, who knows. But she is for sure no silent mouse.

And out there in the real world the word "agency" may have a meaning that makes sense. But in these forums it is the most cheapened expression and by now can only be used with heavy gravy of irony on top.

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Annara Snow, your argument was that LF/Sansa could never be written or viewed as a consensual love affair because of the factors you listed, nearly all of which applied to Dany/Drogo, sold by GRRM as a consensual love affair. It's true that there's plenty that's offensive, objectionable and creepy when it comes to LF and Sansa, but that's equally true in a different sense with Dany and Drogo--swap out daddy/daughter role play and classic grooming behavior for the touching tale of a girl falling in love with her rapist and how her strength of character is signaled by her occasional pleasure when being raped--and GRRM blithely sold it as a grand romance, or as a consensual love affair at least. It would be naive to assume that there's no way he'll do it again.

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Annara Snow, your argument was that LF/Sansa could never be written or viewed as a consensual love affair because of the factors you listed, nearly all of which applied to Dany/Drogo, sold by GRRM as a consensual love affair. It's true that there's plenty that's offensive, objectionable and creepy when it comes to LF and Sansa, but that's equally true in a different sense with Dany and Drogo--swap out daddy/daughter role play and classic grooming behavior for the touching tale of a girl falling in love with her rapist and how her strength of character is signaled by her occasional pleasure when being raped--and GRRM blithely sold it as a grand romance, or as a consensual love affair at least. It would be naive to assume that there's no way he'll do it again.

No, it really wouldn't be. It's pretty clear from the way he wrote LF/Sansa, as opposed to how he wrote Dany/Drogo (which I'm no fan of - except in the sense that it plays its role in Dany's development and I could see how it seemed like a romance from her POV) that this is no story of a romance or a consensual love affair. I don't know think that GRRM could have made LF/Sansa creepier or less romantic or sexy if he tried, short of having him rape her.

If you were a writer trying to sell a love story or consensual love affair between a teenage girl in helpless position and an older man in position of authority (and there sure have been many such stories), the way GRRM has been writing LF/Sansa is almost like a textbook of everything you shouldn't do. And that was obviously intentional, it's not like he seems to be trying to set up a romance/erotic affair and failing, he seems to be trying and doing the exact opposite.

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Okay. So....the moment didn't play out in the show like it didin the books, but it was still interesting.

The kiss in particular. I've always thought that Littlefinger didn't entirely understand his interest in Sansa either. In AFFV Sansa remarks on his seemingly dual nature. Petyr might actually view Sansa as his daughter, the one he should have had with Catelyn. While Littlefinger sees her as a replacement Catelyn and be sexually interested in her as such.

I mentioned that because his mask dropped in that seen. Maybe Littlefinger had more practical reasons for the Purple Wedding, reasons to do with political gainand personal advancement but Petyr had personal reasons for murdering Joffrey that I believe had to do with Catelyns death at the Red Weddding.

At least in the scene in the show his demeanor became less smug when he said that line. He sounded like he was speaking from the heart. Then Sansa smiles at him and he continues to talk about his personal feelings and he kisses her.

When she pushes him away though, his face looks as shocked as Sansas. Like he knows he did something he shouldn't have, or at least that he surprised himself. He does that alot around Sansa, from touching her hair the first time he meets her, to telling her that her eyes are honest and true, as deep blue as a sunlit sea. And she thinks to herself that he looks at her as if hes seeing her for the first time.

That was my take on that scene as it played out.

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Sansa actively challenges Baelish and asks the right questions. This will forward her taking part far more than getting fooled by the fool with Florian and Jonquil stories.

How is asking him about his motive (and continuing to do so even though she already got the right answer) better than participating in her own escape?

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Okay. So....the moment didn't play out in the show like it didin the books, but it was still interesting.

The kiss in particular. I've always thought that Littlefinger didn't entirely understand his interest in Sansa either. In AFFV Sansa remarks on his seemingly dual nature. Petyr might actually view Sansa as his daughter, the one he should have had with Catelyn. While Littlefinger sees her as a replacement Catelyn and be sexually interested in her as such.

I mentioned that because his mask dropped in that seen. Maybe Littlefinger had more practical reasons for the Purple Wedding, reasons to do with political gainand personal advancement but Petyr had personal reasons for murdering Joffrey that I believe had to do with Catelyns death at the Red Weddding.

At least in the scene in the show his demeanor became less smug when he said that line. He sounded like he was speaking from the heart. Then Sansa smiles at him and he continues to talk about his personal feelings and he kisses her.

When she pushes him away though, his face looks as shocked as Sansas. Like he knows he did something he shouldn't have, or at least that he surprised himself. He does that alot around Sansa, from touching her hair the first time he meets her, to telling her that her eyes are honest and true, as deep blue as a sunlit sea. And she thinks to herself that he looks at her as if hes seeing her for the first time.

That was my take on that scene as it played out.

GRRM talks about this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtYhmD2TZs0

He credits LF as having a three-way nature in relation to Sansa (thrice nature?). But yeah, I quoted that part of Alayne's chapter on the previous page. It's a complex relationship, and will be interesting to see how it develops next season (where they'll either be completely off-book, or in TWOW material, most likely).

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No, it really wouldn't be. It's pretty clear from the way he wrote LF/Sansa, as opposed to how he wrote Dany/Drogo (which I'm no fan of - except in the sense that it plays its role in Dany's development and I could see how it seemed like a romance from her POV) that this is no story of a romance or a consensual love affair. I don't know think that GRRM could have made LF/Sansa creepier or less romantic or sexy if he tried, short of having him rape her.

If you were a writer trying to sell a love story or consensual love affair between a teenage girl in helpless position and an older man in position of authority (and there sure have been many such stories), the way GRRM has been writing LF/Sansa is almost like a textbook of everything you shouldn't do. And that was obviously intentional, it's not like he seems to be trying to set up a romance/erotic affair and failing, he seems to be trying and doing the exact opposite.

Sadly, the books have several love affairs--not all of which are sold as a great love story as Dany/Drogo was, although it's telling that GRRM's great love story of the books has all those elements which you insist mean that LF/Sansa can never happen--that have creepy, dysfunctional, or even downright abusive elements, but which are nonetheless treated as consensual or pseudo-consensual love affairs at the very least. You're really in the wrong series if you're arguing that X and Y won't have a (pseudo) consensual hookup because it would be creepy, disturbing, offensive, and fucked up. If anything, that makes it more likely.

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Sadly, the books have several love affairs--not all of which are sold as a great love story as Dany/Drogo was, although it's telling that GRRM's great love story of the books has all those elements which you insist mean that LF/Sansa can never happen--that have creepy, dysfunctional, or even downright abusive elements, but which are nonetheless treated as consensual or pseudo-consensual love affairs at the very least. You're really in the wrong series if you're arguing that X and Y won't have a (pseudo) consensual hookup because it would be creepy, disturbing, offensive, and fucked up. If anything, that makes it more likely.

I never said that Sansa couldn't end up in Baelish's bed for reasons of survival (that's actually a constant unpleasant possibility in her Vale chapters, she has already been enduring his kisses and pushing them completely out of mind, she seems to have mastered the art of detachment), I just don't see how that could be presented as a consensual love affair, especially with GRRM having written it the way he has. Say what you will about GRRM, but nobody can accuse him of trying to make that dynamic sexy or romantic, or set it up as a consensual affair.
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Sansa actively challenges Baelish and asks the right questions. This will forward her taking part far more than getting fooled by the fool with Florian and Jonquil stories. If "taking part" will go the way everybody in these forums likes or if she will go a different road some do not enjoy, who knows. But she is for sure no silent mouse.

And out there in the real world the word "agency" may have a meaning that makes sense. But in these forums it is the most cheapened expression and by now can only be used with heavy gravy of irony on top.

Sansa actively challenges Baelish (and Dontos) in the books as well. I'm not sure what you mean with the' fooled by a fool' part, Sansa always had severe doubts of the escape plan with Dontos (she did not trust his competence, was afraid he was only giving empty promises, was frustrated he did not reveal anything of the plans etc.), but she took the chance because it was the only option she had. In case you forgot the parts where Sansa asks questions in the books, I collected a few for you (from Sansa V-VII ASOS):

In the books Sansa herself realizes an 'amethyst' is missing, and starts to realize the implications and demands answers from Dontos:

"You said I must wear the hair net. The silver net with . . . what sort of stones are those?"

"Amethysts. Black amethysts from Asshai, my lady."
"They're no amethysts. Are they? Are they? You lied."
"Black amethysts," he swore. "There was magic in them."
"There was murder in them!"

Sansa questions LF's motives for the murder:

He had this all prepared for me. "My lord, I . . . I do not understand . . . Joffrey gave you Harrenhal, made you Lord Paramount of the Trident . . . why . . . "

She blames LF for framing an innocent man:

Sometimes she dreamed of Tyrion as well. "He did nothing," she told Littlefinger once

She questions LF for not taking her home:

"Couldn't I stay on the ship until we make sail for White Harbor?"

"From here the King turns east for Braavos. Without us."
"But . . . my lord, you said . . . you said we were sailing home."

She questions LF for not taking her home for a second time:

Petyr yelped, as the snow slid down under his collar. "That was unchivalrously done, my lady."

"As was bringing me here, when you swore to take me home."

She calls him out on kissing her instead of just staring like she is dumb.

"What are you doing?"

Petyr straightened his cloak. "Kissing a snow maid."
"You're supposed to kiss her." Sansa glanced up at Lysa's balcony, but it was empty now. "Your lady wife."
.....
"You shouldn't kiss me. I might have been your own daughter . . . ".

She realizes something is very wrong when she is brought in front of Lysa:

He would not leave. "My lady said to bring you."
Bring me? She did not like the sound of that. "Are you a guardsman now?"
.....
Marillion swung the doors shut and barred them with a third spear, longer and thicker than those the guards had borne.
Sansa felt a prickle of unease. "Why did you do that?"
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I never said that Sansa couldn't end up in Baelish's bed for reasons of survival, I just don't see how that could be presented as a consensual love affair, especially with GRRM having written it the way he has. Say what you will about GRRM, but nobody can accuse him of trying to make that dynamic sexy or romantic, or set it up as a consensual affair.

Jaime/Cersei is hardly written as sexy or romantic, either--I can think of few things less sexy than their altar sex interlude, and GRRM was clearly going to some pains to make it as nasty as possible--but it is a consensual love affair (in the books, at least), as gross, nasty, creepy and wrong as it may be.

As for GRRM doing nothing to lay the groundwork for a pseudo-consensual love affair, I'd say the last Alayne chapter does plenty in that regard, but that's been covered before.

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Jaime/Cersei is hardly written as sexy or romantic, either--I can think of few things less sexy than their altar sex interlude, and GRRM was clearly going to some pains to make it as nasty as possible--but it is a consensual love affair (in the books, at least), as gross, nasty, creepy and wrong as it may be.

Because it's a consensual love affair, between twins who started doing it as kids with nobody forcing anyone, and who have a strong sexual attraction to each other. I don't see where you found the point of comparison and what you think that proves. There are taboo love affairs in the book, so that means that Sansa may have a "consensual" love affair with Baelish even though she is in no position to refuse him, depends on him for survival, and has no sexual or romantic interest in him?
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As for GRRM doing nothing to lay the groundwork for a pseudo-consensual love affair, I'd say the last Alayne chapter does plenty in that regard, but that's been covered before.

The Alayne chapters do the exact opposite of that. I'm at a loss where you saw anything consensual there on Sansa's part, or any sign of even a remotest sexual or romantic interest from her.

What do you even mean by pseudo-consensual in this case? She will endure him fucking her like she endures him kissing her? He will be able to fool himself that she wants him? Perfectly possible, but "consensual love affair" that some folks here are talking about it certainly wouldn't be.

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Okay. So....the moment didn't play out in the show like it didin the books, but it was still interesting.

The kiss in particular. I've always thought that Littlefinger didn't entirely understand his interest in Sansa either. In AFFV Sansa remarks on his seemingly dual nature. Petyr might actually view Sansa as his daughter, the one he should have had with Catelyn. While Littlefinger sees her as a replacement Catelyn and be sexually interested in her as such.

I mentioned that because his mask dropped in that seen. Maybe Littlefinger had more practical reasons for the Purple Wedding, reasons to do with political gainand personal advancement but Petyr had personal reasons for murdering Joffrey that I believe had to do with Catelyns death at the Red Weddding.

At least in the scene in the show his demeanor became less smug when he said that line. He sounded like he was speaking from the heart. Then Sansa smiles at him and he continues to talk about his personal feelings and he kisses her.

When she pushes him away though, his face looks as shocked as Sansas. Like he knows he did something he shouldn't have, or at least that he surprised himself. He does that alot around Sansa, from touching her hair the first time he meets her, to telling her that her eyes are honest and true, as deep blue as a sunlit sea. And she thinks to herself that he looks at her as if hes seeing her for the first time.

That was my take on that scene as it played out.

I don't know about that reason for the PW. I think he was closer to honesty in the boat. If he wanted revenge for the RW, he would have aimed at Tywin, not Joffrey. And, at least in the books, we know that the plan for the PW was underway since the moment LF brokered the alliance with the Tyrells.

So I think he gave her a lie which Sansa was more inclined to believe than the truth. However, I also believe LF wants revenge for the RW and he's aiming at the Freys - he has both emotional and pragmatical reasons to destroy them - and wants to check how willing is Sansa to join Frey Hunting Season, hence the line about "people who hurt the ones we love". Fortunately, Sansa seems quite willing to join the FHS.

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I never said that Sansa couldn't end up in Baelish's bed for reasons of survival (that's actually a constant unpleasant possibility in her Vale chapters, she has already been enduring his kisses and pushing them completely out of mind, she seems to have mastered the art of detachment), I just don't see how that could be presented as a consensual love affair, especially with GRRM having written it the way he has. Say what you will about GRRM, but nobody can accuse him of trying to make that dynamic sexy or romantic, or set it up as a consensual affair.

Why wouldn't that be consensual? Shae and Tyrion are consensual, Jamie and Cersei are consensual, Prince Oberyn and Ellaria are consensual. There's significant power and prestige differences in all those relationships. The fact that she'd be doing it to survive doesn't make it less so in my opinion, though to be frank she'd be doing a damn sight better than just "surviving" if she does eventually agree to share his bed. To be the lover and companion to one of the most powerful men in the realm means that she'd be living a life of unimaginable safety and comfort, one denied to about 90% of the people of Westeros. I think it's pointless to force 21st century romantic standards onto what is essentially a medieval society.

By this logic, practically none of the relationships, either professional or romantic, are consensual in Martin's story. The Hound had a death sentence the moment he left the king's service. How much 'agency' did he have over his life? Robb was told who to marry and when, and of course so was his Frey betrothed. Is their marriage not consensual? King Robert and Cersei had a loveless marriage, and I doubt either one of them would have picked the other for themselves. Cersei constantly talked with loathing of how Robert would stumble to bed and force himself on her, but I doubt she would ever describe it as rape. Through our modern eyes, I don't know if it could be called anything else. And of course Robert hated her and had his heart set on Lyanna and never wanted to marry her in the first place.

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