Mel's missing ruby and Shireen's fate

[Petyr Patter]

Oh I think the show made it pretty clear. Mel is going to burn Shireen. How else could you take that scene? It's only been theorized by book readers until now.

There is another "challenging truth," Stannis dies.

And this is something that has happened in the books, or was at least reported in the books which is enough for Melisandre to misinterpret her vision. At that point, Shireen becomes their Queen making her important.

On the otherhand, Melissandre had King's blood at the Wall with Mance Rayder. Stannis was well prepared to burn him for his oath breaking, but Melisandre intervened and he's still alive. Shireen is safe... probably. I think the show runners wanted the strike some fear for her into the audience, but sacrificing her doesn't make sense: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/98515-queen-shireen-and-the-shaggydog/?p=5066544

[ground_control]

Shireen had Greyscale, like the Stone Men.

Shireen is a true born Baratheon, and thus an unsecret Targaryen.

Thus, Shireen will be a Stone Dragon at the Wall, and Mel wants King's Blood to waken a Stone Dragon.

Not saying that Mel won't try to burn Shireen, but it would not be out of line for her to try to do that while missing the big picture.

[Lord Varys]

My guess is that Mel is just feeding Selyse shit here, to keep her quiet because Stannis wants to take his daughter with him to the Wall.

The whole point of the scene was to tell the audience that Mel uses lies and tricks as well as true magic (and truth) to do R'hllor's will, and thus it makes entirely sense for her to tell Selyse that R'hllor wants Shireen to come with them, if that's what she needs to hear to shut up.

And Mel cannot say to the audience that Dragonstone will be taken by the Lannisters after they leave, since they apparently want to keep it vague as to where they are going.

It's pretty clear that in the books Shireen cannot be sacrificed for any reason whatsoever:

1. Shireen is Stannis' heir. With Stannis supposed to be dead, his followers will have to crown Shireen or seize to continue the fight. This applies to Melisandre as well, but even more so to book Selyse, who is only important because she is the mother of Stannis' only child. By crowning Shireen, Selyse and Mel can effectively take over Stannis' followers and do whatever the hell they want (although they have no men to do all that much).

2. Shireen is Stannis' heir. If his followers or he himself would sacrifice her, it would pretty much kill his entire cause. No one follows a man who murders his own, innocent child. There way be reasons to kill traitorous brothers and sons, but not innocent children. Especially not if we are talking about the only child.

3. Shireen is Stannis' heir. Both Selyse and Melisandre will do anything in their power to keep her alive, not the other way around. If Shireen dies, then most likely because the wildlings turn against Selyse/Mel and kill her because she is 'unclean'. Or because her greyscale returns and she dies of sickness.

In fact, I expect Mel doing everything in her power to save Shireen's life should the greyscale return. We have seen what Moqorro did to save Victarion's life and arm. Mel could do something similar to save Shireen from greyscale, turning her into 'the stone beast breathing shadow fire' in the process (i.e. most likely into a hideously disfigured creature, half-burned girl, half dragon - due to her Targaryen blood).

[Jslay427]

Well we know that Selyse wouldn't object to Mel burning Shireen, but they both have to know that Stannis would crucify them both were they to.

[Lord Varys]

TV Selyse does not like her daughter. Book Selyse does like her daughter. She is the only thing she's got.

In fact, book Stannis is the one ignoring his only child. They have not once spoken to each other in any book chapter I know of, nor does Stannis seem to give any thought of preparing his daughter to rule. If she is supposed to follow him, one would expect him to have her attend him during council sessions and stuff like that. It makes sense that he does not take her with when he rides into war, but she should have been with him at Castle Black.

Even if Stannis survives his alleged death - with such an untrained successor in the charge of 'smart guys' like Axell Florent and Selyse, Stannis' cause will die soon if he does not send word to the Wall soon that he is still alive.

For Mel there can't really be a reason to sacrifice Shireen after Stannis is supposed to be that. Killing Shireen will not bring Stannis back, nor should Mel technically continue to fight for Shireen after Stannis' death since her fight is something completely different. But I'm pretty sure Mel is not going to believe that Stannis is dead, because she is convinced he is Azor Ahai. But for the people in doubt she will throw her support behind Queen Shireen since they'll have to give anyone a show who may start to doubt that Stannis is dead.

She is all about 'the trappings of power', and for that she really needs Queen Shireen.

[Sub_Zero94]

without Stannis or Jon around to defend the princess........... it does make me nervous, i'm not gonna lie

I mean, how many Kings Men are left at Castle Black, if any ?

[Lord Varys]

Mel should see to it that Selyse and Shireen remain unharmed. That black powder that can kill a man instantly was not mentioned to be never heard of again, I assume. Mel should make short work out of Bowen Marsh and his cabal. And Tormund and his wildlings should not really want to kill Shireen. Wildlings may not let greyscale children live, but they are south of the Wall now. They will wait and see what happens. But if Shireen gets sick again, things may get ugly...

[Bronn Urgandy]

TV Selyse does not like her daughter. Book Selyse does like her daughter. She is the only thing she's got.

In fact, book Stannis is the one ignoring his only child. They have not once spoken to each other in any book chapter I know of, nor does Stannis seem to give any thought of preparing his daughter to rule. If she is supposed to follow him, one would expect him to have her attend him during council sessions and stuff like that. It makes sense that he does not take her with when he rides into war, but she should have been with him at Castle Black.

Even if Stannis survives his alleged death - with such an untrained successor in the charge of 'smart guys' like Axell Florent and Selyse, Stannis' cause will die soon if he does not send word to the Wall soon that he is still alive.

For Mel there can't really be a reason to sacrifice Shireen after Stannis is supposed to be that. Killing Shireen will not bring Stannis back, nor should Mel technically continue to fight for Shireen after Stannis' death since her fight is something completely different. But I'm pretty sure Mel is not going to believe that Stannis is dead, because she is convinced he is Azor Ahai. But for the people in doubt she will throw her support behind Queen Shireen since they'll have to give anyone a show who may start to doubt that Stannis is dead.

She is all about 'the trappings of power', and for that she really needs Queen Shireen.

To be fair book Stannis barely actually appears and is more of a mentioned looming shadow in the background of even quite a lot of Davos' chapters, its only later at the Wall (where he keeps his child in a safer place on the Wall) does he appear more frequently. Shireen is getting a proper noble borns education however, Stannis might just think she's a bit young for the kind of council meetings that discuss whether they should sacrifice her cousin for the greater good or not.

[OnlyOne]

Yes, that's what I meant. It might be her intention, but isn't a spoiler per se as it's to be seen whether it happens or not.

Mel isn't going to get everything she wants...

[Morbanth]

I see two possibilities:

1) Melisandre saw Loras Tyrell taking Dragonstone in her fires. She knows it is important to take the heir with them.

or

2) Melisandre saw that she needs to sacrifice Shireen, perhaps to revive a certain bastard, as others have pointed out. She does this after realizing the reason Rhollor keeps showing her Snow when she asks to see Azor Ahai. Melisandre burns Shireen and revives Jon because she believes she was wrong about Stannis and thinks him dead. Stannis comes back, loses his mind over what they did to his daughter, and kills Melisandre with the fake Lightbringer... turning it into the real thing through the sacrifice of his "beloved", Shireen, but indirectly. :)

[Bear Island]

It's hard to know what to make of the scene but it can't be called a spoiler.

Maybe Mel just meant Shireen is important and is needed as Stannis' heir but the talk about sacrifice and nothing being a sin if it's in service of god sure makes it SEEM like Mel is intending on burning her. The thing is, as everyone has mentioned, Stannis would never allow that. Maybe it happens behind his back, but I can't see him ever allowing it or being okay with it if it were done behind his back.

I agree with SeventySeven. That scene, to me, felt like Selyse was sizing up Mel, and was jealous/envious of the qualities Mel possesses that Stannis apparently finds attractive. I didn't for a minute see any desire there.

[The Prince of Newcastle]

Are there any stills of Mel naked in this scene? For... Research obviously

[Chebyshov]

I see two possibilities:

1) Melisandre saw Loras Tyrell taking Dragonstone in her fires. She knows it is important to take the heir with them.

or

2) Melisandre saw that she needs to sacrifice Shireen, perhaps to revive a certain bastard, as others have pointed out. She does this after realizing the reason Rhollor keeps showing her Snow when she asks to see Azor Ahai. Melisandre burns Shireen and revives Jon because she believes she was wrong about Stannis and thinks him dead. Stannis comes back, loses his mind over what they did to his daughter, and kills Melisandre with the fake Lightbringer... turning it into the real thing through the sacrifice of his "beloved", Shireen, but indirectly. :)

IMO it's #2. Reading the books made me scared of this possibility, and now it seems like the show is really setting it up. Very sad, especially since Show!Shireen made me like her even more :crying:

[AZAXD]

Are there any stills of Mel naked in this scene? For... Research obviously

Yeah some more research is definitely needed here. The ruby's absence didn't even cross my mind because I was distracted - with my research.

PS: Show Shireen is AWESOME! Love that little cutie. Hope she doesn't get burned... my Unsullied dad threw around the idea of her having some unknown powers perhaps like Bran or something hehe. Don't worry he's gonna read the books soon!

[Morbanth]

She's Dutch, I think she's naked in every movie I've seen her in. Just google it my friend.

[Gendels Children]

IMO the whole "we need to keep your daughter with us because she is important for the future" thing is quite vague, yet... unsettling-ly clear that she wishes to burn her.that is why it wont happen. unsullied and book readers alike can easily pick up on the idea of burning her for her kings blood in order to serve some higher purpose. which is exactly why i think it wont happen, its too obvious, and right now D&D are getting into a subject that has not been dictated clearly by the books yet, its in essences a project all their own, they are going to want to do this the best way possible (though i know not everyone will/has agreed with their methods) i think they are really going to try avoid 'spoilers' or overly clear hints unless they are leading you into the wrong direction. i think this little statement about about Shireens upcoming necessary role she has to play will have more to do with (like others have said) her greyscale. its built up rather big in the 5th book, the wildlings know a lot about greyscale and they know to steer clear of anyone inflicted with it, they distrust and fear it to the point of killing children who have been cursed with it. i very much doubt this has just been brought to our(and jons) attention at such a crucial time for no reason at all. that being said ANYTHING can just be a great big red herring in this particular realm.

[Damon_Tor]

She told her to look into the fire, told her about sacrificing people, told her to do what's necessary (that there are no sins in service to The Lord), and told her to bring Shireen. How is that not clear?

Whether it happens it not remains to be seen but she definitely wants to burn her.

The "sin" might be totally different. Maybe she's going to use Shireen's womb to breed more shadow monsters.

[Rooseman]

It's all vague enaugh and as long as it hasn't happened, anybody can interpret it as they like.

I've long been buying into the theory that she will be sacrificed. It's just a very fitting thing to happen both in the universe itself, as well as from a storytelling perspective. So when Selyse started talking about wether they would leave Shireen behind or not, I immediately knew where this was going. For me, this only further strengthens the theory, I find that the scene was even a bit on-the-nose if you already suspected something like this happening in the future.

But again, if you're opposed to the theory, it's not difficult to find reasons why it might all happen differently.

[~DarkHorse~]

The whole "no matter how harsh it seems" and "the Lord needs her" does NOT sound like they are taking her because she is the heir.

I'm sorry, but I thought it was pretty clear they mean her harm.

[juanml82]

To be fair book Stannis barely actually appears and is more of a mentioned looming shadow in the background of even quite a lot of Davos' chapters, its only later at the Wall (where he keeps his child in a safer place on the Wall) does he appear more frequently. Shireen is getting a proper noble borns education however, Stannis might just think she's a bit young for the kind of council meetings that discuss whether they should sacrifice her cousin for the greater good or not.

True, but he could have Shireen present during his meetings with Jon, though. She's about 10-11 years old by then. While she shouldn't intervene, listening could be good teaching.