[Book Spoilers] Nitpick With Impunity

[boojam]

What the hell is going on with the opening credits?!

First three seasons there was a match up with setting in the Episode (tho Winterfell and KL are permenant markers, that's ok, the Wall is a stand in for all things at and beyond the Wall, ok again.)

This weeked we get The Dredfort (which was not in this episode), Braavos (which was not in this episode). No Eyrie, last seen season one.

O yes, no Dragonstone either.

In fact it seems they have a 'canned' title sequence , no more innovation.

Money problems?

[Kungsmurfen]

Lysa's moondoor fall was anti climatic to me. I was expecting more from that but I was sure they were gonna mess it up

I thought it was just as disappointing as the book version. :dunno:

[PatrickStormborn]

The whole Jorah/Dany/Yunkai business was really stupid. Dany already gave them a chance to live back in season 3 - "I have a gift for you as well. Your life ... And the lives of your 'Wise Masters', but I also want something in return. You will release every slave in Yunkai ... Reject this gift, and I shall show you no mercy."

They took the gift and then went back on her deal. And now Jorah wants her to give them another chance? It just shows me - once again - that the writers don't have a great understanding of the source material. Dany's problem ISN'T that she was too ruthless - the problem is that crucifying 163 Great Masters was ineffective because it didn't change the power structure in Meereen, it just further antagonised the slavers. And now they're presenting Dany's mercy to the Wise Masters of Yunkai as a good idea? No experienced leader would have crucified 163 Great Masters, true, but no leader worth following would give the Wise Masters a second chance of mercy.

They've just made Dany look totally stupid for some reason. In the books she was naive, inexperienced and idealistic, yes, but never stupid.

I don't know why I even put this in the "nitpick" thread. It's three seasons' worth of mischaracterisation culminating in terrible decision and after terrible decision on behalf of the writers. In fact, they're making a bigger mess of Meereen than Dany herself did.

And before anyone jumps in and says something inane like "OMG they totes understand the material", I'm gonna stress that no, they seriously don't. They've probably read ADwD what - once, twice, maybe three times at a push? I've certainly read Dany's chapters more than that, and I've engaged in discussions about her arc in that book for almost 3 years now(!), and still there's no general consensus about what happened in her arc: some think she becomes basically a substitute Harpy; some think she was completely ineffective in dealing with the slavers; some think she was ineffective but also too cruel; some think she should have never turned to Slaver's Bay in the first place; some think she was motivated purely by greed; some think she's heading towards madness; some think she wasn't ruthless enough; some think she just lacked foresight...

I could continue, but I won't. The bottom line is that D&D are not conveying any of this. The message they're sending us is that Dany is being too harsh on the slavers. And what's their reasoning for this? Jorah's "I would be dead too under your command"? There's simply no logic to that! Jorah sold slaves once; under Dany's rule he may be dead, but most likely (like the majority of the slavers), he would have been given a second chance. If Ned had pardoned Jorah and he had betrayed that by selling slaves again, does anyone honestly think Ned would give him a second chance at mercy?

And this is further proof that D&D are just not comparable to GRRM, who makes the reader question Dany's actions without trying to sell to us the idea that slavery is a crime that can be forgiven. Tyrion's master, for example, is a fair enough man; he wants to respect the peace with Daenerys and he doesn't particularly mistreat Tyrion, Penny or Jorah; in fact, some of his slaves even like him! But GRRM makes him (and some other slavers) complex and grey without turning Dany into Viserys.

(And let's be real, a lot of this could be avoided if the writing staff and production team was more diverse. Instead it's a bunch of straight white men who probably all have the same opinions on the story.)

[Hangover of the Morning]

Loved the episode but the Danny/Daario scene was boring, pointless and lacked any chemistry between the two. I didn't care much about the old Daario but at least he was memorable, the new guy is just meh and totally unimpressive. Danny/Jorah was good but wished we had a kiss between the two. But I understand that they already had one elderly creep trying to force himself on teenage girl in that episode so poor Ser Friendzone will have to wait.

[Veltigar]

(And let's be real, a lot of this could be avoided if the writing staff and production team was more diverse. Instead it's a bunch of straight white men who probably all have the same opinions on the story.)

One of whom was responsible for X-Men origins: Wolverine. I think that says it all.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I'm usually really hard on the episodes & in general really enjoyed this one. I'm also usually a HUGE Dany fan though & that is what I hated about this episode.

"Take off your clothes" how RI-DIC-U-LOUS!

Emilia Clarke is gorgeous but she has got to get more emotions than the "I am the blood of the dragon do as I command spoiled brat used to getting what I want" tone.

[David Selig]

Nothing is nothing conversation with dead guy ( UGH )

Rorge just stands there and lets Arya stab him ( FAIL )

This so much. WTF was this?

And what was with Biter appearing out of nowhere and jumping on the Hound's back? Such a stupid scene. How the hell were these two able to sneak up on Arya and the Hound?

Everything in Meereen was just stupid. It really seems that the writers have no clue what to do with this plotline.

How old is Robin supposed to be? 12? He seems way too old for the way he is behaving, above and beyond what just being really spoiled can explain.

[AegonVI_rules]

In the run up to this episode, people were complaining about how having "Only Cat" here, not in ep 10, ruined the whole thing in the books where it comes right before the Epilogue and Stoneheart.

It seems like they don't care about such things: we had Brienne and Pod talking about Sansa maybe being in the Vale and, after another scene*, we see Sansa at the Eyrie. It was such a blatant cut to have. Just really poor editing there (likewise Meereen - even if we aren't going to see Dany and Daario doing it, both the cut from it, and the cut back to the morning after, were bad - simply jarring) to stick another scene in between,

Season 4 has been full of nonsense additions that have (rightly) wound book readers up. This episode was better, but the Brienne plot takes a big kick in the nuts here - not only do they know about Ayra and the Hound without spending half a season walking around the Riverlands (many book readers rejoice, I guess) - she's a long way through her Feast stuff now, especially with Rorge and Biter dead, despite only an episode on the road. They'll have to make up different filler for her now, which will struggle to be as good as GRRMs!

Plus, who can Petyr blame for Lysa's death? the Eyrie has been empty (we've not even seen a servant) and Petyr needs a scapegoat or will lose his control over the Vale. He's not going to blame Sansa, who is clearly replacing Cat in his affections, is he? Blame Robin, perhaps - they have made him a one-note character who likes to see people fly (and replaced illness with spoiltness) after all.

Other than being poorly produced, and leaving some issues with how to go forwards, this was a good episode overall. Well, a good episode for season 4 at least!

*The excellent one with the Imp and the Viper, which was far more climatic than the Vale ended up being - could it have been shifted to the end due to actually packing a punch?

[boojam]

(And let's be real, a lot of this could be avoided if the writing staff and production team was more diverse. Instead it's a bunch of straight white men who probably all have the same opinions on the story.)

They did have Vanessa Taylor for seasons 2 and 3, and Jane Espenson with D and D the first season.

But yeah, no women writers this year.

I wish they had a veteran teleplay writer (not don't bother George!) to REALLY review all the scripts and say 'HEY YOU GUYS!", this does not work, or "this is silly"... I think all the teleplays are above average, but sure could use some small fix ups now and then.

I am dispointed the Really Good directors they have don't seem to put their foot down about some things.

[Muggle]

Pretty sure i read in an interview emilia clarke, told hbo she refuses to do any more nude scenes. that she wants to be remembered for her acting bringing the character of dany alive. not just being known as that white hair girl who got naked a lot on the show.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Arya channeling Rust Cohle. What the hell was that "nothing is nothing" line?

Everything Biter and Rorge. For us book readers kind of make sense to have Biter bite Sandor because he's...you know, Biter. But it just looked stupid from a non-reader perspective. Like, why not stab him or something? And Arya killing Rorge was a bit cheap/easy/hollywoodish

Speaking of Biter and Rorge, they had more chemistry than Dany and Daario. Also, the timing for that hook-up was weird

Mel in the bath was gratitious. Her telling Selyse that some of her powers are tricks was so out of character

[Mark Antony]

Nothing is Nothing - Arya Stark.

No shit sherlock.

So cringeworthy. Like wtf was that shit.

Other than that the only things I didn't really like were Mels scene and D any/Daario but they both were okay.

[PatrickStormborn]

They did have Vanessa Taylor for seasons 2 and 3, and Jane Espenson with D and D the first season.

But yeah, no women writers this year.

I wish they had a veteran teleplay writer (not don't bother George!) to REALLY review all the scripts and say 'HEY YOU GUYS!", this does not work, or "this is silly"... I think all the teleplays are above average, but sure could use some small fix ups now and then.

I am dispointed the Really Good directors they have don't seem to put their foot down about some things.

I don't think Vanessa Taylor had read the books, had she? So her opinion of the characters would have been based on a far more limited understanding of the text, but primarily based on D&D's own interpretations of the characters. In contrast, Bryan Cogman is a huge fan of the books, something which usually manifests itself in his episodes.

Obviously the lack of female writers is a huge problem, but just adding a token white woman to the writing staff didn't fix the problems in seasons two and three. They really need a bigger writing staff of at least six writers IMO, with D&D writing just the premiere and the finale instead of writing seven episodes and directing one (particularly as they also make significant alterations to the few episodes they don't write). I can't think of any other TV shows where the showrunner(s) dominate the writing of episodes to this extent... I know that Mad Men showrunner Matthew Weiner writes a lot of episodes per season, but most of them are in collaboration with another writer (suggesting he perhaps took more of a backseat role) - for the sixth season, as an example, he collaborated with 8 different writers, half of whom were women.

Basically, I think most of the problems with this show are the result of this (and I think I'm being generous to the showrunners here!). It just feels like the writers are all pretty much in sync with the characterisation of the main characters, which just leads to stagnant characterisation and poor writing. The only time I feel like there's added nuance from the characters is in a Bryan Cogman or GRRM episode. They need someone who would say "No, [x] would never talk like this in the books" or "No, this may be a valid line for book-[x], but it doesn't fit with the character progression we've shown up till now". And they definitely need someone who says "Okay, this is just terrible" - and I'm thinking of Melisandre right here. She's supposed to be this other-wordly religious figure, a prophet, a shadowbinder, an ex-slave, and most importantly she's probably a zombie who has lived for a long time... and yet they present her as pretty much just a slightly extraordinary woman; she takes baths, strolls around naked, tells jokes, feels tense at dinner with Stannis and Selyse, etc... There's no sense of gravitas there.

[OccupyHarrenhal]

My only real nitpick was how fake Lysa going out the moon door looked. I'm used to far better SFX from this show.

This is my major complaint too, it was really low-budget. She looked tiny even after just being pushed out. If you go back and watch Tyrion's trial in the Vale, the effect of Vardis going out of the Moon Door was MUCH better. Did the effects team run out of money or something?

[Faydra]

• Arya's philosophy

Clegane. The mass slaughter was pointless; plus that the actor is too pleasant-looking for a character who's known for being a savage of low cunning

The Dragonstone filler. I'm glad I'm not invested in Stannis' character. Oh dear, what treatment he receives...

Rorge and Bitter. They appeared out of nowhere and died too quickly

[eumaies]

Some good critiques of one of the less painful episodes of the season.

I'm suprised nobody else minded Petry's apparent (According to the inside the episode interview) spur of the moment kissing sansa and killing lysa. The whole beauty of it in the books is that he's calculated it so carefully and manipulatively.

Also, the Viper continues to be cast as a hopeless middle-aged romantic. If he could've actually discussed bringing Tyrion with him to Dorne and maybe crowning Myrcella... that would be evidence of a strategic deadly mind who plans to get something substantive out of his duel in addition to the pleasure of killing the mountain. But no.

Even at their best, D&D kind of miss the good stuff.

[Veltigar]

Basically, I think most of the problems with this show are the result of this (and I think I'm being generous to the showrunners here!). It just feels like the writers are all pretty much in sync with the characterisation of the main characters, which just leads to stagnant characterisation and poor writing. The only time I feel like there's added nuance from the characters is in a Bryan Cogman or GRRM episode. They need someone who would say "No, [x] would never talk like this in the books" or "No, this may be a valid line for book-[x], but it doesn't fit with the character progression we've shown up till now". And they definitely need someone who says "Okay, this is just terrible" - and I'm thinking of Melisandre right here. She's supposed to be this other-wordly religious figure, a prophet, a shadowbinder, an ex-slave, and most importantly she's probably a zombie who has lived for a long time... and yet they present her as pretty much just a slightly extraordinary woman; she takes baths, strolls around naked, tells jokes, feels tense at dinner with Stannis and Selyse, etc... There's no sense of gravitas there.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Aethermancer]

As I added in my edit, the wall would seem a much more viable choice for someone who is facing either death or a trial by combat against the mountain.

And wouldn't they have a champion to fight for them?

Generally, trial by combat is a nobility thing. Not something offered to lowborn.

However, assuming that was the case and they did try it as a last ditch effort: You don't get assigned champions, you must have a volunteer. If Oberyn didn't volunteer for Tyrion, it would be Tyrion that would be facing the Mountain.

[David Selig]

Some good critiques of one of the less painful episodes of the season.

I'm suprised nobody else minded Petry's apparent (According to the inside the episode interview) spur of the moment kissing sansa and killing lysa. The whole beauty of it in the books is that he's calculated it so carefully and manipulatively.

Nope, it was impulsive in the books too.

[TheFullmetalAlchemist]

The Mountain looks like a cuddly teddy bear. Brienne has a bad attitude with pretty much everyone, which makes her pretty unlikable. The cutting of the "only Cat" line was unnecessary. Rorge and Biter just appearing out of nowhere was downright comical. The Sansa snow scene was rushed.

Those were my issues with the ep. The rest was fine.