Beorn Snow Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 I find the idea that a proof of R+L=J should be in the crypts kind of annoying.It´s like hiding a Targ-family secret in the crypts of the Starks. If anything should be hidden there, it should be proof of the Stark´s bloody past. Their connection to whatever is happening north of the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 You didn't read my post well. That's exactly what I said. RT was dead before Jon's birth, so nothing he could have written can prove his legitimacy. Even if some sort of marriage certificate exists and is buried in the crypt, that doesn't prove Jon is their son and not Ned's. Only Howland Reed can prove that. Or dead Lyanna if the dead start rising from these crypts. I'm totally at loss what may be in her tomb, but it must be very important. Can it be a Dark sister? Or the Lightbringer? Do we have any clues leading into that direction?Ooooo I did read it wrong! Sorry! *facepalm*I don't think we have any clues, but Lightbringer seems unlikely, since Rhaegar believed until his death that Aegon was the promised prince. Dark Sister would be very fitting if Rhaegar was trying to recreate the original trio, but that depends on what happened to it when Bloodraven was arrested in 221AC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 25, 2014 Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 I find the idea that a proof of R+L=J should be in the crypts kind of annoying.It´s like hiding a Targ-family secret in the crypts of the Starks. If anything should be hidden there, it should be proof of the Stark´s bloody past. Their connection to whatever is happening north of the wall.I tend to agree with you, because Jon never dreams of Lyanna's grave. He dreams of Stark kings looking, watching, listening (Ned had the same observation) and opening their graves. Remember Stark children playing in the Crypts. Jon was playing a ghost and dead man. Nice foreshadowing of his current situation. Sansa ran screaming, Robb tried to protect Bran. Arya exposed Jon for who he is and showed no fear what-so-ever. And Arya and Jon are described as the real Starks. So, if we see this as foreshadowing, we can expect the real Arya in the north pretty soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 25, 2014 Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 Ooooo I did read it wrong! Sorry! *facepalm*I don't think we have any clues, but Lightbringer seems unlikely, since Rhaegar believed until his death that Aegon was the promised prince. Dark Sister would be very fitting if Rhaegar was trying to recreate the original trio, but that depends on what happened to it when Bloodraven was arrested in 221AC.BR went to the Wall along with Aemon. Two of them spent decades on the Wall together and they probably kept communicating via the LC's talking raven and God knows what else since BR left beyond the Wall. So, whatever BR knows, Aemon knows and he told us he corresponded and consulted with RT. So, it figures wherever Dark Sister may have been, RT as the crown prince would have the right to take it. Also, Ned takes Dawn all the way to Starfall from the ToJ, which means Valeryan steel swords are more important to families who hold them then remains of their relatives. Whoever has Dark Sister has a strong claim on the throne. But, the real question is, is MR looking for that and if so, how would he know about all that? Did Aemon tell him during their long healing one-to-one sessions at the Wall? Why would he do that? Why would he protect Mance's son and risk his life in the process? Is that all Mance is looking for? Endless questions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 BR went to the Wall along with Aemon. Two of them spent decades on the Wall together and they probably kept communicating via the LC's talking raven and God knows what else since BR left beyond the Wall. So, whatever BR knows, Aemon knows and he told us he corresponded and consulted with RT. So, it figures wherever Dark Sister may have been, RT as the crown prince would have the right to take it. Also, Ned takes Dawn all the way to Starfall from the ToJ, which means Valeryan steel swords are more important to families who hold them then remains of their relatives. Whoever has Dark Sister has a strong claim on the throne. But, the real question is, is MR looking for that and if so, how would he know about all that? Did Aemon tell him during their long healing one-to-one sessions at the Wall? Why would he do that? Why would he protect Mance's son and risk his life in the process? Is that all Mance is looking for? Endless questions?Actually we have no reason to assume that Bloodraven knows where Dark Sister is. Maekae arrested Bloodraven, and most likely took back the Valyrian sword for those of his own blood. What happened to it, who he gave it to, we don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon stark I Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Actually I believe in Stark lords spirit rising theory.Because both Arya and Rickon had some weird expriences in Crypts.Arya mentions that she played " come into my castle" with dead Starks in crypts and Rickon was practicing sword fighting with statues in the crypts.I think Stark Lords will somehow talk to Stannis or Northern Lords.But this kind of thing is actually not in GRRMs writing style.Rather then R+L evidince I think we either find original sword "Ice" or something powerful to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Do we know for sure there is a way into winterfell or is it just a theory? Theon came over the walls right?. If there is such secret way which part of surrounding area does it open into? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FittleLinger Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Do we know for sure there is a way into winterfell or is it just a theory? Theon came over the walls right?. If there is such secret way which part of surrounding area does it open into? It would be very surprising in terms of real life castles and fortresses if there is no such passage. Luwin told Theon he knows a secret way out, but that could be me misremembering or being just in the show, if so - disregard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Actually I believe in Stark lords spirit rising theory.Because both Arya and Rickon had some weird expriences in Crypts.Arya mentions that she played " come into my castle" with dead Starks in crypts and Rickon was practicing sword fighting with statues in the crypts. I think Stark Lords will somehow talk to Stannis or Northern Lords.But this kind of thing is actually not in GRRMs writing style. Rather then R+L evidince I think we either find original sword "Ice" or something powerful to use. What do you mean with "original sword Ice"? Ice was the Valyrian sword Ned took to KL with him, which has been reforged into two swords.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FittleLinger Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 What do you mean with "original sword Ice"? Ice was the Valyrian sword Ned took to KL with him, which has been reforged into two swords.. There was an ancient Stark sword Ice, and the Valyrian one was named after it, IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon stark I Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 What do you mean with "original sword Ice"? Ice was the Valyrian sword Ned took to KL with him, which has been reforged into two swords.. The "ce" you are talking about isn't the orginal one the one I am talking about is the ancient sword of kings possibly 8000 years old.Your "Ice" is likely to be 600-1000 years old. There are theories that say original "ce" was like thers swords or one theory suggest that it is a sword like excalibur that lets the one who wields it lead the WWs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 The "ce" you are talking about isn't the orginal one the one I am talking about is the ancient sword of kings possibly 8000 years old.Your "Ice" is likely to be 600-1000 years old. There are theories that say original "ce" was like thers swords or one theory suggest that it is a sword like excalibur that lets the one who wields it lead the WWs. Where is this original Ice mentioned then? I can't recall it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 25, 2014 Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 Actually we have no reason to assume that Bloodraven knows where Dark Sister is. Maekae arrested Bloodraven, and most likely took back the Valyrian sword for those of his own blood. What happened to it, who he gave it to, we don't know. BR can see where anything is. EDIT: Aemon is Maekar's son. Why wouldn't he know where Dark Sister is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 25, 2014 Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 It would be very surprising in terms of real life castles and fortresses if there is no such passage. Luwin told Theon he knows a secret way out, but that could be me misremembering or being just in the show, if so - disregard. Yes, Luwin says that in the show, but that is too important to just be invented by D&D without consulting GRRM. In book 5 we find out there are layers of WF beneath the crypts. We also know that Molestown and Castle Black have tunnels where people reside during winter. So, it makes sense that there is/are (a) tunnel(s) underneath WF leading to at least King's road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Yes, Luwin says that in the show, but that is too important to just be invented by D&D without consulting GRRM. In book 5 we find out there are layers of WF beneath the crypts. We also know that Molestown and Castle Black have tunnels where people reside during winter. So, it makes sense that there is/are (a) tunnel(s) underneath WF leading to at least King's road. Actually, that doesn't make sense, because Winterfell is so many years older than the kingsroad.Also, show canon is completely different from book canon. An example: according to show canon, Robb's wife was pregnant and got killed, in book canon, she is still alive, and we'll see her again.So without any hints towards such a secret passage, speculation is all we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 25, 2014 Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 Actually, that doesn't make sense, because Winterfell is so many years older than the kingsroad.Also, show canon is completely different from book canon. An example: according to show canon, Robb's wife was pregnant and got killed, in book canon, she is still alive, and we'll see her again.So without any hints towards such a secret passage, speculation is all we have.There is a difference between the show mention of the tunnel and Westerling switch. Robb's show wife is dead, so no child can be born. Jane Westerling is not pregnant, because her mother made sure she wasn't. So, the end result is the same - Robb has left no heirs. We came from point A to point B using a different road (a favourite GRRM description of his writing process). The tunnel is mentioned by Luwin, but that information is never used in the plot. So, it's a foreshadowing, a Chekov's gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barty Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 The only reason I see for Brandon being buried in the crypts would be that Rickard died first, so Brandon technically was the lord of Winterfell for the short time between his father's death and his own. Lyanna is buried in the crypts because she specifically wished to. But, why would she wish that? She knows the customs of her family. Women are not buried in the crypts. So, I guess you are right in you assumption that her tomb hides something, but what? Also, I do not believe lady Dustin went down there for sentimental reasons alone. She is a practical woman. She was actively looking for something. And so is Mance. All Starks are buried in the crypts but only the Lords have statues. Brandon and Lyanna were not supposed to have statues but they did, nowhere is it said that they were not supposed to be buried there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 25, 2014 Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 All Starks are buried in the crypts but only the Lords have statues. Brandon and Lyanna were not supposed to have statues but they did, nowhere is it said that they were not supposed to be buried there. I remember distinctly that there is a passage about where Lady was buried and that it's mentioned that only men are buried in the crypts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fool of a Book Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 All Starks are buried in the crypts but only the Lords have statues. Brandon and Lyanna were not supposed to have statues but they did, nowhere is it said that they were not supposed to be buried there. I'm agreeing with this. The only other place to bury the non-lord Starks would be in the lichyard, but that is where, we are told from a Bran POV in GoT, the servants of the Starks are buried (and also Lady). There is no mention of Starks being buried in the lichyard, only in the crypts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barty Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 I remember distinctly that there is a passage about where Lady was buried and that it's mentioned that only men are buried in the crypts. Not according to AryaRobb took them all the way down to the end, past Grandfather and Brandon and Lyanna, to show them their own tombs. Sansa kept looking at the stubby little candle, anxious that it might go out. Old Nan had told her there were spiders down here, and rats as big as dogs. Robb smiled when she said that. “There are worse things than spiders and rats,” he whispered. “This is where the dead walk.” This is Arya's POV - her tomb has already been set aside in the crypts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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