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Crypts of Winterfell


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Hello everyone and welcome to this thread!



I'd like us to explore together parts of ASOIAF that mention crypts of Winterfell.



In the light of the latest revelation of the Stark family tree, I believe we can shed more light on issues like:



- who do we know was definitely buried there?


- where are Ned Stark's bones?


- what was lady Dustin searching for in the crypts?


- how many missing swords are there?


- is there a meaning behind the fact that some swords are missing? Does that alter somehow the status of the dead Starks?


- what do Jon Snow's dreams of the crypts mean?


- what can be hidden in the layers of Winterfell below the crypts?



Feel free to message me your additional questions and issues we may discuss, so that I can add them to this thread.



Let's all enjoy, play by the rules and have fun with this material. :-)


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FROM “THE BLOOD MOTIF”

THE UNITY OF BLOOD: WINTERFELL, THE CRYPTS, AND THE WEIRWOOD TREE

“. . . Winterfell was a grey stone labyrinth of walls and towers and courtyards and tunnels spreading out in all directions(79).


The Starks, historically and symbolically, are currently and have been in the past a part of the grey stones of Winterfell, the crypts below, and the weirwood tree in the godswoods. Through personification, Martin humanizes them. For example, since the castle is built over a natural hot springs, “scalding water rushed through its walls and chambers like blood through a man’s body” (58).

Martin compares water to blood, the substance that sustains life in humans; without blood circulating in their bodies, humans will expire. Furthermore, the hot waters drive “the chill from the stone halls, filling the glass gardens with a moist warmth, keeping the earth from freezing”. About the Winterfell grounds, “Open pools smoked day and night in a dozen small courtyards”. Thus, Catelyn observes that “in winter, the hot springs and pools are the difference between life and death”.


Martin reveals that “Ned could never abide the heat”. Ironically, since the “Starks were made for the cold”, their earthly remains are stored in the chilly crypts below the castle.


Martin brings the WF crypts to life. As Ned prepares to take King Robert down into the crypts to pay his respects to Lyanna, Ned notes that “He could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth” (41). The crypts are like the lungs that exhale cold air as the visitors make their way down the stairs to the tombs, Ned leading Robert “among the dead” (42) identified as “The Lords of Winterfell watched them pass” (42). The great stone statues appear “to stir” and the stone direwolves “curl” around stone feet when Robert roars with laughter: the “echoes rang through the darkness, and all around them the dead of Winterfell seemed to watch with cold and disapproving eyes” (47-48).

Apparently, the expired Starks in stone disapprove of the King’s mirth when paying respects to the dead. Maybe Robert’s jollity annoys the spirits, or they are annoyed by the King’s plans to steal Ned away to serve as Hand of the King.


After Robert asks Ned to be his Hand, Ned feels a “horrible sense of foreboding. This was his place, here in the north” (48). Moreover, Ned “could feel the eyes of the dead. They were all listening, he knew. And winter was coming” (48). Martin reveals that Ned “knows” that the dead are listening; more importantly, the dead may see and hear that “winter is coming”, which seems a reason for Ned to stay at Winterfell. Winterfell contains blood circulating in its walls, and the crypts breath with statues that stir, watch, and listen, all very human associations.

However, the readers are told that Ned does not believe in signs. This may account for why Ned ignores the dead and decides to honor his King, a decision that may appear reckless to someone who does believe in signs and may have heeded the communications from the dead themselves.

Just as the Starks are historically and symbolically part of Winterfell and the crypts, so is the weirwood that thrives in the godswood:

Here [in the north] every castle had its godswood, and every godswood had its heart tree, and every heart tree its face”.

As Lady Catelyn steps upon the deep humus covering the godswood floor, the sound of her footsteps is swallowed up:

A thousand years of humus lay thick upon the godswood floor, swallowing the sound of her feet . ..” “Swallow” is a word associated with eating or drinking as well as the mouth, teeth, breath, and lips. In this instance, Martin personifies the godswood floor by attributing to it the ability to swallow “sound”, not food.

She glanced behind her at the heart tree, the pale bark and red eyes, watching, listening, thinking its long slow thoughts”.

A tree that watches and thinks parallels Winterfell, the windows of the fortress serve as eyes that also insinuate an intellect that has the ability to contemplate or process information.

When Catelyn finds her husband beneath the weirwood, he sits on a stone. The greatsword Ice rests across his lap, and he cleans the blood from the blade in those waters black as night. After executions, Ned symbolically feeds the roots of the heart tree with the blood that remains on his sword.

Furthermore, Ned assumes the same posture as those dead Stark lords and Kings of Winter in the crypts – even sitting upon a stone just as the statues sit a carved stone throne. This composition, with the unsheathed sword, is non-verbal communication: the Stark dead are not welcoming guests. Martin situating Ned in such a repose foreshadows Ned’s death and the statue that soon will be carved in memorial to Lord Eddard Stark.

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Hello everyone and welcome to this thread!

I'd like us to explore together parts of ASOIAF that mention crypts of Winterfell.

In the light of the latest revelation of the Stark family tree, I believe we can shed more light on issues like:

- who do we know was definitely buried there?

- where are Ned Stark's bones?

- what was lady Dustin searching for in the crypts?

- how many missing swords are there?

- is there a meaning behind the fact that some swords are missing? Does that alter somehow the status of the dead Starks?

- what do Jon Snow's dreams of the crypts mean?

- what can be hidden in the layers of Winterfell below the crypts?

Feel free to message me your additional questions and issues we may discuss, so that I can add them to this thread.

Let's all enjoy, play by the rules and have fun with this material. :-)

hmm, to answer down the line:

-the only person that ISNT buried there, if Old Nan's rumor is at all accurate (she believes The Night's King was a Stark)

-not sure what she was looking for, but whatever it was, is more than likely in winterfell's depths, int he lower crypts that they dont have access to

-the missing swords, supposedly they were iron blades that were believed to keep the dead within their tombs

-if anything, dead starks clawing at their own tombs trying to get out (not really, jk)

-as a subscriber to the r+l=j theory, it kind of explains itself that he wouldnt belong there

-here's where we have some fun..........

couple of possibilities on what lurks in the crypts:

-some people believe, Dark Sister, is there

-some people believe an Ice Dragon, or Ice Wyrm

crackpottery:

-if TNK is a Stark, wouldnt he want to be buried with his kin? Perhaps thats why his soul cant rest

-if it's such a theory that an ice dragon/wyrm is beneath winterfell, what if TNK's female Other? what makes that so unbelievable?

-The Night's Queen, absorbs the cold, to remain alive, and thats why the walls in winterfell are always warm

-The Night's King, wants to break through the wall, and be with the night's queen, who's locked, or buried, in winterfell's crypts.

-on a separate crackpot theory, i'd like to see the Shield of The Knight Of The Laughing Tree, propped up against one of the stark tombs.

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All the Starks who have been King in the North or Lord of Winterfell whose bodies haven't gotten lost are burried down there. Ned, obviously, hasn't reached Winterfell yet, but perhaps he might someday.

Lady Dustin wanted to visit her old love, Brandon, who, despite never having been Lord of Winterfell, was burried down there, with his sister Lyanna, as two exceptions.

There were 4 swords missing, IIRC, because Bran and co took them, to be able to defend themselves. That the swords are gone won't mean anything for the dead though.

Jons crypts dreams could indicate that there is something down there to proof Lyanna and Rhaegar had a child together. Whatever it will be, it will most likely be hidden in Lyanna's tomb, which is at the end.

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Lady Dustin wanted to visit her old love, Brandon, who, despite never having been Lord of Winterfell, was burried down there, with his sister Lyanna, as two exceptions.

The only reason I see for Brandon being buried in the crypts would be that Rickard died first, so Brandon technically was the lord of Winterfell for the short time between his father's death and his own.

Lyanna is buried in the crypts because she specifically wished to. But, why would she wish that? She knows the customs of her family. Women are not buried in the crypts. So, I guess you are right in you assumption that her tomb hides something, but what? Also, I do not believe lady Dustin went down there for sentimental reasons alone. She is a practical woman. She was actively looking for something. And so is Mance.

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The only reason I see for Brandon being buried in the crypts would be that Rickard died first, so Brandon technically was the lord of Winterfell for the short time between his father's death and his own.

Lyanna is buried in the crypts because she specifically wished to. But, why would she wish that? She knows the customs of her family. Women are not buried in the crypts. So, I guess you are right in you assumption that her tomb hides something, but what? Also, I do not believe lady Dustin went down there for sentimental reasons alone. She is a practical woman. She was actively looking for something. And so is Mance.

It seems that Brandon was the one who died first:

Not me, another Brandon, my father’s brother. They’re not supposed to have statues, that’s only for the lords and the kings

If there is truly something hidden in Lyanna's tomb, and if that truly is the reason that Lyanna was burried at Winterfell, it would have been incredibly strange and raised questions if Brandon had not been burried there as well.

Mance was looking for a way out of Winterfell, since he needed a way to get fArya out.

As to what is hidden in Lyanna's tomb, I don't know, but I can name some of the items that have been suggested: A dragons egg, a wedding cloak (Targaryen), Rhaegar's harp, a document, the crown of blue roses. I don't know how likely they are (the dragons egg seems highly unlikely to me personally), but I don't think there are any hints given to what it could be.

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If there is truly something hidden in Lyanna's tomb, and if that truly is the reason that Lyanna was burried at Winterfell, it would have been incredibly strange and raised questions if Brandon had not been burried there as well.

That is a very good point.

Mance was looking for a way out of Winterfell, since he needed a way to get fArya out.

I don't think so. First of all, he knows Arya is fake. He told Jon when he first met him beyond-the-wall that he saw all Stark children in Winterfell. If he remembered Jon straight away, he will remember Arya as well. Mance is smart and cunning. He remembered all the songs of Westeros. So, his memory is excellent. Secondly, he made fArya escape by jumping. Mance has opened 50 giants' graves beyond the wall searching for the Horn of WInter. I don't know what he is searching for in WF, but whatever that is, he needs a Stark there. I bet he thought Arya was real when he left the Wall and later, to his utter disappointment, discovered her to be fake. That's why he wrote the Pink Letter to lure Jon to WF. "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" is more than just a saying. It must serve some purpose. If Manderly produces Rickon, Mance will not need Jon.

Lyanna's grave hides something, that's for sure. The question is what. A dragon egg makes sense, because an egg was missing in Summerhall and she was RT's wife/mistress and the ToJ is not far from Summerhall. Dany got three dragon eggs as her wedding gift. Maybe Lyanna got one as hers. But, that's pure conjuncture. Harp, flowers… I don't see much point in that. Maybe RT's sword. But, why would that be important?

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The only reason I see for Brandon being buried in the crypts would be that Rickard died first, so Brandon technically was the lord of Winterfell for the short time between his father's death and his own.

Lyanna is buried in the crypts because she specifically wished to. But, why would she wish that? She knows the customs of her family. Women are not buried in the crypts. So, I guess you are right in you assumption that her tomb hides something, but what? Also, I do not believe lady Dustin went down there for sentimental reasons alone. She is a practical woman. She was actively looking for something. And so is Mance.

Yup, I think something is hidden down there that proves Jon's lineage and perhaps even legitimacy.

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Maybe Jons remainings will be placed in the crypts and he will awake there?

That can only happen if Stannis legitimises him and uses his bones as a PR stunt in order to rally the north. However, for that to happen, Mance has to take over Winterfell, kill the Boltons, get other lords present on his side and Stannis has to join him. Then both of them have to hear the news from the Wall. That takes a lot of time. In the meantime, Jon's body will be in the underground cells at Catle Black. Not likely. Why would the NW wait that long to bury/burn Jon? Mance and Stannis are no kin of his.

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I don't see anything, but a document made and signed by Rhaegar proving that and RT was dead when Jon was born.

I'm not even sure what it would be, but it's the only explanation for what Jon needs to see down in those crypts. I definitely don't think Lyanna's bones are all that's down there since she shouldn't even be there by tradition.

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Hello everyone and welcome to this thread!

I'd like us to explore together parts of ASOIAF that mention crypts of Winterfell.

In the light of the latest revelation of the Stark family tree, I believe we can shed more light on issues like:

- who do we know was definitely buried there?

- where are Ned Stark's bones?

- what was lady Dustin searching for in the crypts?

- how many missing swords are there?

- is there a meaning behind the fact that some swords are missing? Does that alter somehow the status of the dead Starks?

- what do Jon Snow's dreams of the crypts mean?

- what can be hidden in the layers of Winterfell below the crypts?

Feel free to message me your additional questions and issues we may discuss, so that I can add them to this thread.

Let's all enjoy, play by the rules and have fun with this material. :-)

there's tons of speculation about what's going on in the crypts and many of your questions are connected, imo.

we definitely know the lords of winterfell are buried there but lyanna is as well. that's definitely what's behind jon's dream of the crypts. many speculate there will be a targaryen cloak buried with lyanna.

as for lady dustin, and i think she's connected to the missing swords because she's collecting them in order to stage a coup against the boltons.

finally, the swords that have disappeared from rust and age might be connected to the mystic angle of the starks. the swords are supposed to keep the dead lords from rising. hmmmmm.

so yeah, i think there is a lot going on down there but the fact that it provided play and shelter for the children makes me think it's not a place to be feared. instead, it seems to be central to the story of the starks.

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That is a very good point.

I don't think so. First of all, he knows Arya is fake. He told Jon when he first met him beyond-the-wall that he saw all Stark children in Winterfell. If he remembered Jon straight away, he will remember Arya as well. Mance is smart and cunning. He remembered all the songs of Westeros. So, his memory is excellent. Secondly, he made fArya escape by jumping. Mance has opened 50 giants' graves beyond the wall searching for the Horn of WInter. I don't know what he is searching for in WF, but whatever that is, he needs a Stark there. I bet he thought Arya was real when he left the Wall and later, to his utter disappointment, discovered her to be fake. That's why he wrote the Pink Letter to lure Jon to WF. "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" is more than just a saying. It must serve some purpose. If Manderly produces Rickon, Mance will not need Jon.

Lyanna's grave hides something, that's for sure. The question is what. A dragon egg makes sense, because an egg was missing in Summerhall and she was RT's wife/mistress and the ToJ is not far from Summerhall. Dany got three dragon eggs as her wedding gift. Maybe Lyanna got one as hers. But, that's pure conjuncture. Harp, flowers I don't see much point in that. Maybe RT's sword. But, why would that be important?

fArya escaping by jumping says nothing, since we know it wasn't supposed to happen like that. The spearwife with the rope accidentally remained behind, but they were originally supposed to climb down he walls of Winterfell using that rope. There was no time to get it back, that was why Theon and Jeyne jumped.

As to the item in Lyanna's tomb: a dragon's egg ie highly unlikely. They were pretty rare, the Targaryens seemed to have not been giving them to their kids anymore (Rhaella and Viserys seem not to have had one on Dragonstone). A signed document, explaining how Rhaegar and Lyanna were legally married could work (since it would officially place Jon in the line of sucession). The harp was Rhaegars personal item, and the blue roses seem to have symbolized Jon himself. A wedding cloak would show there was a marriage, but it wouldn't necessarily say anything about Jon.

Or perhaps it'a something we're not thinking of :p

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I don't see anything, but a document made and signed by Rhaegar proving that and RT was dead when Jon was born.

How would something proving Rhaegar died before Jon was born proof anything? A document showing that Rhaegar and Lyanna were officially married, and that he left a highly pregnant Lyanna to go to war, would say more. If it is a document we'll eventually find, we might also discover the name Jon was supposed to have, a Targaryen name, perhaps even decided on by Rhaegar alone.

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How would something proving Rhaegar died before Jon was born proof anything? A document showing that Rhaegar and Lyanna were officially married, and that he left a highly pregnant Lyanna to go to war, would say more. If it is a document we'll eventually find, we might also discover the name Jon was supposed to have, a Targaryen name, perhaps even decided on by Rhaegar alone.

You didn't read my post well. That's exactly what I said. RT was dead before Jon's birth, so nothing he could have written can prove his legitimacy. Even if some sort of marriage certificate exists and is buried in the crypt, that doesn't prove Jon is their son and not Ned's. Only Howland Reed can prove that. Or dead Lyanna if the dead start rising from these crypts. I'm totally at loss what may be in her tomb, but it must be very important. Can it be a Dark sister? Or the Lightbringer? Do we have any clues leading into that direction?

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