Why not Stannis? [Possible WoW Spoilers]

[Bronn Urgandy]

I think he left KL because of Robert's decision to choose Ned Stark over Stannis as Hand of the King. He was tired of being passed over. The issue of Robert's succession wasn't urgent. He had no evidence to suggest that Robert was going to get gored. The only reason I could see Stannis being scared and fleeing is if Mel told him he was going to die if he stayed in KL. That I could buy.

Well this is it, killing Robert is much harder than killing Stannis, Stannis is only a younger brother and accidents happen, but they've got to kill Robert, the King of the Seven Kingdoms in such a way that it doesn't get back to them, and with Stannis gone and Pycelle controlling the Ravens, the need for Robert to die is lessened. As Mourneblade pointed out earlier in this thread, there is only so much you can do for a man who won't help himself.

A possibility I am open to, because I am not all that biased, I have no reason to believe it yet because we've had a Melisandre POV where she says it took a long time to get Stannis to trust her, but its been at the back of my head for a while now, is if Stannis went to Dragonstone with the intention of helping Robert but Melisandre convinced him that Robert was a lost cause. It makes a little more sense than the other "Stannis went into business for himself theories" because it involves Melisandre, but like all the others there is literally nothing to confirm it and 15 years of history to oppose it.

[A Man Has Said]

But what was his DUTY?

There's one common theme you can find running throughout all of Stannis' decisions. And contrary to what people seem to think, it's not duty. If it was duty, the situation you're trying to explain by pragmatic self-interest wouldn't be the problem it is for Stannis apologists. He would have done his duty, and to hell with whether Robert believed him or whether that increased his own personal danger or w/e.

It's self-interest/ambition/getting what he feels is his due. That's the only one which is never superseded.

He is capable of great, even heroic deeds. But only when they don't conflict with his own interests.

THIS! In SPADES. :agree:

Every Saint Stainless whitewashing argument ignores this AND makes a whole bunch of ASSumptions about why he bugged out to Dragonstone FOR A YEAR AND A HALF with no contact with anyone from the outside world.

Those assumptions carefully avoid the obvious; self-interest fueled by bitter resentment.

If you want to make assumptions, the easiest to make (and just as likely, so far as you can support from the text) would be;

-Stannis did indeed believe Robert's life to be in danger, most likely from the Lannisters (more than he himself was threatened, by far)

That's a FACT that Stainless Supporters rely on, so it's not in dispute

-instead of protecting his brother and Rightful King (as he was obliged to do - it was his DUTY) he left the city, putting Robert in even more danger.

That's a FACT from the text of the books. We KNOW Stannis had removed himself to Dragonstone, it's mentioned at least half a dozen times in AGoT

-he was 'gathering swords' for unknown purposes BEFORE Robert was fatally wounded by the boar.

That's another FACT from the text

So he was either hoping that Robert would be assassinated during his absence, after which he would play his twincest card and declare himself king (which is exactly what happened) or he was gathering swords to.. ..what exactly? Declare war on the Lannisters by himself while Robert was still king? How would that have worked?

Because Stannis really was in immediate danger. Eddard even reflects that whatever had frightened Stannis must be pretty bad.

<snip>

Correction: Eddard wonders what could have been so bad as to frighten the man who held out so long at Storm's End. When he thinks that, Ned doesn't have any clue what it was or even could have been.

So tell me, Bronn Urgundy -- how in hell does that demonstrate in any way, shape or form what the actual danger was, or how severe?

You're argument doesn't make any sense, and when an argument is being used that is completely nonsensical, I call that a whitewash.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Correction: Eddard wonders what could have been so bad as to frighten the man who held out so long at Storm's End. When he thinks that, Ned doesn't have any clue what it was or even could have been.

So tell me, Bronn Urgundy -- how in hell does that demonstrate in any way, shape or form what the actual danger was, or how severe?

You're argument doesn't make any sense, and when an argument is being used that is completely nonsensical, I call that a whitewash.

Erm, you didn't correct me, you just repeated what I said with different wording. Whats your end game here? Ned didn't know what the danger was at that time, but he knew it whatever it was it frightened Stannis Baratheon, the man who held a fortress in his brothers name, a fortress he'd likely be head of now if he'd declared for Aerys by the way, right out of Kings Landing. And that it'd gotten another man killed. :dunno:

Oh and, you've yet to actually prove how Stannis removing himself from KL put Robert in more danger as opposed to less, when Robert lived quite comfortably up until the point that someone actually decided to tell him about the twincest, a thing that Stannis removing himself from KL helped to ensure wouldn't happen. FACT, FACT, FACT.

[A Man Has Said]

Erm, you didn't correct me, you just repeated what I said with different wording. Whats your end game here? Ned didn't know what the danger was at that time, but he knew it whatever it was it frightened Stannis Baratheon, the man who held a fortress in his brothers name, a fortress he'd likely be head of now if he'd declared for Aerys by the way, right out of Kings Landing. And that it'd gotten another man killed. :dunno:

YOU used this idle thought from Ned to demonstrate that Stannis was in immediate danger. Here, I'll quote you again:

Because Stannis really was in immediate danger. Eddard even reflects that whatever had frightened Stannis must be pretty bad.

I pointed out that it doesn't show anything because Ned didn't know what the danger was.

There's nothing connecting your first sentence (conclusion) with the second (supposedly supporting evidence.)

Are you merely pretending not to understand that? Because it's really not that difficult. A child could get my meaning.

[Osha13]

Because Stannis really was in immediate danger. Eddard even reflects that whatever had frightened Stannis must be pretty bad.

Stannis doesn't know about the book, or at least he never mentions it. All this in your post is speculation, we know he was on Dragonstone gathering swords, we don't know why, was he going to return to Kings Landing in force with troops and hopefully evidence to back up his incest claims? I mean, Stannis isn't stupid, what good is gathering 5000 swords at best to then try to claim a Kingdom with? Its a terrible plan, Robert was loved by everybody, no way is the realm siding with Stannis over his heir, whatever claims of incest he makes, he was lucky Joffrey went to lengths to make himself unpopular.

Thing is, you can make up your mind about a character and then categorise their actions based around what you think of them, and that is never more in evidence than when people talk about Stannis' flight to Dragonstone, but given the characters overall history and loyalty to Robert and his loyalty to Roberts memory, at worst his flight to Dragonstone was a personal moment of weakness out of fear for his own life. The alternative is remaining somewhere where you believe your life is in danger and telling a bunch of people that you believe won't believe you. Killing Robert Baratheon is a big, big deal, I don't think people appreciate that, and Roberts pig ignorance and willingness to bury his head in the sand had kept him alive this long, Stannis may have reasoned that if he wasn't there to tell Robert of anything, he could buy Robert time, since why risk the implications of killing him?

Not to mention, we still don't know what he had planned on Dragonstone, could be he was figuring out a way to act. Given Stannis and Roberts relationship thus far, its not particularly hard for me to believe that. They didn't like each other, but Stannis always did right by him

Okay, Stannis may not have known about the book. We don't know for sure if he knew about it, but we also don't know for sure that he didn't. So saying he didn't is speculation as well.

Like i said, this is not known for sure, but Stannis could have left Kings Landing with serious doubts about Robert's safety. He knew they were willing to kill to protect the secret of the incest, and Joffreys own father was part of Roberts Kingguard. How did Stannis know that Jon Arryn's killers were sure Stannis and Jon didn't tell anyone else? If you can't be sure about that, it is reasonable to assume Robert was in Danger. Stannis fled from his duty because he was scared that he himself was in danger, but based on what we know it doesn't seem like he cared about Robert being in danger, or we see no evidence of it. He didn't tell Renly either, so saying that Robert wouldn't of believed him and that justifies it, is a form of whitewashing Stannis.

Also, saying that he was gathering 5000 swords to return and confront the Lannisters with proof of the incest is speculation as well. How would he obtain proof on Dragonstone? There is no indication that this is the case, or that he planned on telling anyone about the incest while Robert was alive, it is just as likely he was waiting for Robert to be killed so the secret incest can be protected. Then Stannis can make his claim at that point. In fact, since Stannis did reveal the incest as soon as Robert died, it actually lends credit to the idea.

When you say that Stannis had a personal moment of weakness and fled, your right. He did do that, and it is one of the reasons why Stannis doesn't deserve the throne. He stayed by Robert through all those slights, and it is very convenient that once he knew he was next in the line of succession because of the incest, he fled when Jon Arryn died. With Jon Arryn dead and Stannis gone, Robert seems a lot more vulnerable, and with Stannis like you said, a smart guy and all, he knew that.

[Bronn Urgandy]

YOU used this idle thought from Ned to demonstrate that Stannis was in immediate danger. Here, I'll quote you again:

I pointed out that it doesn't show anything because Ned didn't know what the danger was.

There's nothing connecting your first sentence (conclusion) with the second (supposedly supporting evidence.)

Are you merely pretending not to understand that? Because it's really not that difficult. A child could get my meaning.

Once again you succeed in proving nothing. I am merely pointing out that Eddard reflects that Stannis Baratheon wouldn't have legged it without good reason, he has an opinion I value more than most forum goers. Do I get my sweets now?

[Bronn Urgandy]

If anything there seems to be an oversight here, since I can't really recall Ned thinking about the danger Robert was in either, at least not until Varys tries to rightly or wrongly convince him of it anyway. Could it be that our daft "men of honour" thought Robert, or more essentially the King was actually off-limits and that no one would try to kill him, because he's the King. This'll be debated until the end of time I suspect, although I must admit, I admire peoples abilities to find flaws in Stannis that even the GOT showrunners didn't pick up on or else decided differently quite amazing.

[RoamingRonin]

If anything there seems to be an oversight here, since I can't really recall Ned thinking about the danger Robert was in either, at least not until Varys tries to rightly or wrongly convince him of it anyway. Could it be that our daft "men of honour" thought Robert, or more essentially the King was actually off-limits and that no one would try to kill him, because he's the King. This'll be debated until the end of time I suspect, although I must admit, I admire peoples abilities to find flaws in Stannis that even the GOT showrunners didn't pick up on or else decided differently quite amazing.

Cately, Ned and Maester Luwin's conversation in AGOT. Ned goes south to investigate Jon's death and threats against Robert. Sure, it will be difficult to kill Robert but not impossible (obviously). Jon was Hand of the King and was assassinated all the same.

ETA: I don't fault Stannis alone in the whole Robert/Cersei fiasco. I blame all three Baratheons -- Jon Arryn and Ned too. It makes no sense to me Cersei was able to outsmart them all but that's what happened.

Stannis's whole thing is that the throne is his because Cersei's children are bastards. That was true when he was in King's Landing, right? He was Robert's heir and the children were always a threat to his position. It just bothers me he doesn't do anything until Robert dies. Why was he surrounding himself with swords? Why was he calling Melisandre over?

Why didn't he do anything when the fighting first started?

[Bronn Urgandy]

Okay, Stannis may not have known about the book. We don't know for sure if he knew about it, but we also don't know for sure that he didn't. So saying he didn't is speculation as well.

Like i said, this is not known for sure, but Stannis could have left Kings Landing with serious doubts about Robert's safety. He knew they were willing to kill to protect the secret of the incest, and Joffreys own father was part of Roberts Kingguard. How did Stannis know that Jon Arryn's killers were sure Stannis and Jon didn't tell anyone else? If you can't be sure about that, it is reasonable to assume Robert was in Danger. Stannis fled from his duty because he was scared that he himself was in danger, but based on what we know it doesn't seem like he cared about Robert being in danger, or we see no evidence of it. He didn't tell Renly either, so saying that Robert wouldn't of believed him and that justifies it, is a form of whitewashing Stannis.

Also, saying that he was gathering 5000 swords to return and confront the Lannisters with proof of the incest is speculation as well. How would he obtain proof on Dragonstone? There is no indication that this is the case, or that he planned on telling anyone about the incest while Robert was alive, it is just as likely he was waiting for Robert to be killed so the secret incest can be protected. Then Stannis can make his claim at that point. In fact, since Stannis did reveal the incest as soon as Robert died, it actually lends credit to the idea.

When you say that Stannis had a personal moment of weakness and fled, your right. He did do that, and it is one of the reasons why Stannis doesn't deserve the throne. He stayed by Robert through all those slights, and it is very convenient that once he knew he was next in the line of succession because of the incest, he fled when Jon Arryn died. With Jon Arryn dead and Stannis gone, Robert seems a lot more vulnerable, and with Stannis like you said, a smart guy and all, he knew that.

Most of this is true, or else has the potential to be true. We don't know, thats the whole point, thats my argument, but if you put forth a scenario that demonises Stannis, I'll put one forth that angelises (is that a word?) him, because we don't know, it could be that he sat on Dragonstone weighing his options, perhaps intending to land and arrest the Queen. I just want to say, is that based on his history with Robert, its not really fair to outright assume that Stannis went into this for himself, or at least, not for certain, which is what so many here do. Its not addressed enough in the text, and is open to all amount of ridiculous interpretation. If you look at the actions on Dragonstone, what Stannis says, and his relationship with Robert (would've been easier to fight for Aerys) its more than plausible that Stannis, for whatever his fears in Kings Landing, hadn't abandoned Robert and that his absense may have even kept him alive until Ned ballsed it up.

[A Man Has Said]

If anything there seems to be an oversight here, since I can't really recall Ned thinking about the danger Robert was in either, at least not until Varys tries to rightly or wrongly convince him of it anyway. Could it be that our daft "men of honour" thought Robert, or more essentially the King was actually off-limits and that no one would try to kill him, because he's the King. This'll be debated until the end of time I suspect, although I must admit, I admire peoples abilities to find flaws in Stannis that even the GOT showrunners didn't pick up on or else decided differently quite amazing.

That's simply false.

There are plenty of passages in AGoT where Ned is clearly worried that Robert is always surrounded by men loyal to the Lannisters instead of his own bodyguard.

I can think of one in particular; when Robert is preparing to take part in the Tourney of the Hand, ("The Breastplate Stretcher Scene") Ned notes that his squires are Lancel and another Lannister cousin. As it happens, Ned was right on about that, because Lancel was instrumental in Robert's death.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Cately, Ned and Maester Luwin's conversation in AGOT. Ned goes south to investigate Jon's death and threats against Robert. Sure, it will be difficult to kill Robert but not impossible (obviously). Jon was Hand of the King and was assassinated all the same.

ETA: I don't fault Stannis alone in the whole Robert/Cersei fiasco. I blame all three Baratheons -- Jon Arryn and Ned too. It makes no sense to me Cersei was able to outsmart them all but that's what happened.

Stannis's whole thing is that the throne is his because Cersei's children are bastards. That was true when he was in King's Landing, right? He was Robert's heir and the children were always a threat to his position. It just bothers me he doesn't do anything until Robert dies. Why was he surrounding himself with swords? Why was he calling Melisandre over?

Why didn't he do anything when the fighting first started?

On that much we do agree, the level of stupidity was quite amazing. And Stannis declaring last was an especially bad move, though it also gives strength to the idea that he didn't see Roberts death coming.

Its a bit of an anomily that no one, not even the most cynical of in world characters have a popular forum opinion and accuse Stannis of hiding away until he can reveal the truth, some say the incest is a convenient lie, but you'd imagine Renly at least would chuck the idea of Stannis waiting out Roberts death back into his face. Or Tyrion or Jaime would think it.

That's simply false.

There are plenty of passages in AGoT where Ned is clearly worried that Robert is always surrounded by men loyal to the Lannisters instead of his own bodyguard.

I can think of one in particular; when Robert is preparing to take part in the Tourney of the Hand, ("The Breastplate Stretcher Scene") Ned notes that his squires are Lancel and another Lannister cousin. As it happens, Ned was right on about that, because Lancel was instrumental in Robert's death.

He certainly worries about Lannister influence, though you may be right on this score, still, as I said to RoaminRonin above, Stannis slow actions in ACOK do give strength to the idea that he didn't see Roberts death coming, and up until that boar strikes there is an aura of invincibility about Robert (at least through Neds eyes), and we know Stannis looks up to him in a strange kind of way.

[A Man Has Said]

I think I should say that I don't really think Stannis was directly responsible for Robert's death in any way. Nor do I REALLY think that he was plotting to overthrow him. That's just nonsense from a practical standpoint; he didn't have a fraction of the strength that would have required, and NO connections with other Lords he could have exploited.

If anyone was to blame for Robert's death, it was Robert himself. He took far too much for granted, was totally irresponsible regarding his own duty, and didn't even pay attention to the thing that should have mattered most to him; staying alive. In the final analysis of things, I think that Stannis is depicted as being a better man in most respects than Robert was. Though sadly, that's not saying much. :p

But then again,truly admirable characters are fairly rare in these novels. Even the good guys are pretty flawed.

[NOT A TARG I SWEAR]

That is why Stannis should not be king. He learned of the incest, and realized he was rightfully next in the line of succession. After Jon Arryn was killed, he fled and we have no indication that he planned on ever telling anybody about it. Regardless of how bad the situation was, he had two brothers in Kings Landing. If he thought Robert wouldn't believe him, well then Stannis should have shown Renly the book that convinced Jon Arryn and stressed the need for secrecy until they have a plan in place. Jon Arryn was the closest thing to Robert, he was his Hand, so Stannis had to of felt Robert was in danger. The secret was already out and Jon Arryn was killed "because of the incest". How do Jon Arryn's killers know Jon and stannis haven't told anyone in Stannis' mind for sure? When Stannis fled, it only benefitted him for certain, and he potentially had serious doubts about Robert's safety. It is very telling that Stannis didn't reveal the incest until Eddard told him Robert was dead. It could be interpreted as Stannis had a feeling Robert was going to be killed, or at least had doubts about his safety, so he abandoned him due to all the times Robert slighted him, and hoped that day would come so he could make his claim and tell everyone about Joffrey. We have no indication before Robert died that Stannis planned on telling anyone, but we do have reasons to believe that he had doubts about Roberts safety so he abandoned him. He stuck by Robert through slight after slight for years on end, so why abandon and flee when you realize your rightfully next in line and Robert could be in Danger?

Stannis is pretty much no help to the situation being in KL. He knew less than Eddard and Robert would not have valued his opinion on the matter in the least. If Eddard came to him with this information instead of doing any # of things he did it would all be a non-issue. Robert would almost certainly ignore warnings from Stannis as some sort of jealousy or vying for position in the line of succession. Let us not forget that Robert excels at ignoring hard truths.

Stannis didn't have any sort of power base in the capital. It does nobody any good whatsoever with him being there. Maybe he could convince Eddard to act sooner or push him in the right direction, but on the former matter we saw how he reacted when Renley approached him after Robert passed. The Gold Cloaks back LF, who most certainly would back whoever held the position contra to Stannis so it'd be easier to continue his scheming/corruption. The Lannisters have a lot more spies and household guard in the capital than Stannis could ever dream of. The Kingsguard are technically Robert's, but enough of them had Lannister interests in mind combined with Robert's doubt, which would probably be further increased by much of the counsel and some of the Kingsguard, I just don't see Stannis being able to convince Robert of much of anything without somebody like Jon Arryn/Eddard who he seemed to respect and value more backing him up, so what's the point of him even being there, especially if he could potentially hurt the cause?

Stannis would just be a sitting duck in KL with limited ability to do anything of consequence in informing Robert or preventing his practically self-inflicted death.

[Bronn Urgandy]

I think I should say that I don't really think Stannis was directly responsible for Robert's death in any way. Nor do I REALLY think that he was plotting to overthrow him. That's just nonsense from a practical standpoint; he didn't have a fraction of the strength that would have required, and NO connections with other Lords he could have exploited.

If anyone was to blame for Robert's death, it was Robert himself. He took far too much for granted, was totally irresponsible regarding his own duty, and didn't even pay attention to the thing that should have mattered most to him; staying alive. In the final analysis of things, I think that Stannis is depicted as being a better man in most respects than Robert was. Though sadly, that's not saying much. :P

But then again,truly admirable characters are fairly rare in these novels. Even the good guys are pretty flawed.

See, now I feel bad about giving you a hard time :(

I think this is why the white-washing happens, when the alternatives are people like Tywin Lannister, Joffrey, the Greyjoys, Roose Bolton and co, its small wonder why people flock to Daenerys and Stannis and smooth over all their misdeeds, because in-spite of everything they are pursuing a nobler cause. In a lesser story Stannis would almost certainly be a or even the villian, rigtful King or no. And Dany wouldn't be anywhere near as controversial as she is, just goes to show, we praise this story for its grey characters but it seems we do need a hero, and these two do seem the most likely to deliver "justice" to the stories natural villians.

I should point out that ACOK and before Stannis isn't someone I particularly admire, though he has admirable charicteristics and I like him more than most, I can contextualise what he's done in a fairer way than "he's shit because he left Robert" "he's shit because he's killed Renly" or "he's shit because he wants to burn Edric" because in all situations I can understand where he's coming from, but the admiration doesn't really come into play until he gives up his entire power base for the good of everyone at the Wall. He's a character I think you can only really like when you've stopped shitting your pants over who's fault the war is (I don't believe he is malicious, ambitious or greedy, but I do believe he shares a lot of the blame, honourable motive or not), move with the story and look to the person or people still standing that are trying to sort it out, but even then, please stop burning people!

[Marcus Halberstram]

Then his wife dies in the siege, and eventually Danny came with her dragons, together they defeat the others, and in order to save the realm for futher blood shed, they decide to get married, and hence rule the seven kingdoms together.

Sorry but that's just weird from both characters perspectives.

I don't think Stannis will win but it would be pretty cool if he did.

[The Others Side]

stannis has displayed far too many traditional "dick moves"he just doesn't deserve it.

Jon or Tyrion

[Osha13]

Stannis is pretty much no help to the situation being in KL. He knew less than Eddard and Robert would not have valued his opinion on the matter in the least. If Eddard came to him with this information instead of doing any # of things he did it would all be a non-issue. Robert would almost certainly ignore warnings from Stannis as some sort of jealousy or vying for position in the line of succession. Let us not forget that Robert excels at ignoring hard truths.

Stannis didn't have any sort of power base in the capital. It does nobody any good whatsoever with him being there. Maybe he could convince Eddard to act sooner or push him in the right direction, but on the former matter we saw how he reacted when Renley approached him after Robert passed. The Gold Cloaks back LF, who most certainly would back whoever held the position contra to Stannis so it'd be easier to continue his scheming/corruption. The Lannisters have a lot more spies and household guard in the capital than Stannis could ever dream of. The Kingsguard are technically Robert's, but enough of them had Lannister interests in mind combined with Robert's doubt, which would probably be further increased by much of the counsel and some of the Kingsguard, I just don't see Stannis being able to convince Robert of much of anything without somebody like Jon Arryn/Eddard who he seemed to respect and value more backing him up, so what's the point of him even being there, especially if he could potentially hurt the cause?

Stannis would just be a sitting duck in KL with limited ability to do anything of consequence in informing Robert or preventing his practically self-inflicted death.

Okay first of all, how do we know Stannis knew less than Eddard? What did Eddard know that Stannis didn't? Stannis left Kings Landing with the knowledge that they were willing to kill to protect the incest, and that Joffreys real father was in Roberts own Kingsguard. Eddard knew so little that he thought Varys was saying Ser Hugh killed Jon Arryn when Varys was clearly hinting it was Littlefinger. Eventually, Eddard figures the incest out by being pointed in the right direction, but he didn't know more than Stannis.

Like I said Stannis thinking that Robert would not believe him, does not justify him fleeing and not saying a word to anyone about the incest, UNTIL Robert was dead and Stannis could make a legitimate claim to the throne. It just doesn't justify it. Stannis still had another brother named Renly in Kings Landing he could of warned. Instead, he fled under the impression that his brothers were still in the vicinity of Jon Arryn's unknown killers, and that these people were willing to kill to protect this secret. How was Stannis so sure that Jon Arryn's killers knew Stannis and Jon Arryn didn't tell anyone else? Stannis had to at the LEAST have an idea that his brothers could be in danger.

When it comes to how Eddard reacted toward Renly when Robert was dying and Renly tried to make his claim, you can't draw the conclusion that Eddard would have given Stannis the same reaction when approached about the incest. Eddard felt Stannis was the rightful heir, and he didn't feel that Renly was. Based on Eddard's backing of Stannis' claim and his eventual belief in the reality of the incest, Eddards reaction to Stannis would have likely been different. Especially if Robert wasn't already laying in the room next door dying. Stannis' departure helped Stannis for certain, and it is not clear how he thought it would help Robert seeing as how he couldn't be certain that Jon Arryn's killers knew Stannis and Jon Arryn didn't tell anybody.

[James Arryn]

For my own part, I think Stannis' motivations in running off to Dragonstone had less to do with cowardice or naked ambition, and much more to do with his (constant) priority of cataloging slights he feels others/life/fate have sent his way, and the kind of callous indifference all moral misers manage to maintain when going over such accounts.

I'm sure the possibility that he would be next in line by his way of thinking would have occurred to him, but I do not believe he is the type of man to act on that alone. But given another cause for sulking, I can easily see him thinking 'well then, I'll give Robert no better than he gives me.' or similar.

I think that would prove a much more digestible flavour of shirking his duty than an outright power grab. That the former might lead to the latter might well occur to him as no more than...justice?

No one is the bad guy in their own book.

My problem is less with Stannis than with those who treat him like some slave to duty and then have to do a lot of fancy dancing to explain away the exceptions. If you don't buy the slave bit, and see him as a man of convictions who nevertheless consistently finds a way to put his own interests first, you can save yourself a lot of needless footwork. The line runs straight and true.

[Not Dead Just Broken]

Is it possible that Stannis told Robert about the twincest and that's why he "fled" for Dragonstone? Robert might not have been as angry as everyone thinks about being cuckolded. It's not like he cared about Cersei. The marriage was always political. When Ned brings up Stannis as a possible Warden of the East, Robert looks uncomfortable. We know Robert didn't have the guts to challenge the Lannisters maybe that's why Stannis left. It doesn't make sense that he left because he feared assassination. It's not in his character.

[DavosSeaworthy]

No, with Rickon and Robb's will around the North will always bend the knee to a Stark.