Ser Few of the Fingers Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 The whole appeal to "Westeros has medieval standars" is just false. When you have characters pointing out the injustice in several "medieval" acts, maybe it is just that they are influenced by GRRM and his modern morality, but the fact is that these characters are claiming in an in-character fashion, in their own Westeros context, that these things are wrong. And if they are able to point this out, or even think about these "modern" moral posibilites, then we are entitled to discus the justice in this actions on the same grounds as these characters. Sorry for bringing the show, but I think that in the book it was the same: Daenerys kills indiscriminately every slavemaster in Mereen and she calls it justice. Then Jorah comes and he calls it bs, that is not justice, that is another crime. If Jorah is able to think in those terms, why wouldn't we be entitled to discuss these issues using those same terms? Westeros is not mevieval England, and people know that collective punishment is just wrong. On the other hand, you claim that this is war, so they are justified because everyone involved knows the risks of being part of a war. You have to admit that the actions of the BWB are more similar to a guerilla style war or even terrorism than conventional war. These bandits are not fighting a war, they have no political or economical claim, they want nothing, only to destroy and burn things. They do not retain prisoners (they killed the Frey that Merret was going to bring back, and then stole his money), they kill unsuspecting people (that do not even know that they are in danger, it's not like they are going to a battlefield knowing the risks of fighting against an oponent), nor do they offer any conditions for peace or surrender: just death. It does not help that it seems that every crime that they are bringing justice against is punishable by death. I did not like Catelyn when she was alive, but her dead version is so insufferable that i started to see alive!Cat under a much better light. The Brienne chapter in which she is nearly hanged felt very forced to me. I truly want to believe that these BWB are not so evil, but I felt very pushed by GRRM to think they are. I could no believe that they didn't even let her make her case, and that they were threatening to hang a 12 year old boy. When Brienne tried to speak, they constantly interrupted her, and even if she wanted to confess, she did not have the oportunity, since they put the rope directly around her neck and threatened with hanging her unless she killed Jaime. I felt so rushed and out of place, like as if GRRM did not want to spoil what the deal with the BWB is, or what goes through LS mind. It felt like he needed Brienne there but just for a moment, because we cannot know too much about the BWB yet. Later, I learned not to criticise the book or the author until the work is completed, so I have to stick to the text. I cannot give LS any benefit of the doubt, because she does not show any nuance or motivation other that being the reincarnation of evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROW'S 3YE Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 i'l reed it again but i think the kid recalls not being there at the wedding, even if he is, he dint kill or hurt or captured any one, he is at least as innocent as the lanniser kids. who karstakk killed en got beheaded for, that was justice.same thing go's for her brother, what is the kid supposed to do, go rescue eddenmure in case he meets her? because its the write thing to do?think he would have lost a head for that. i don't think "hanging to be eaten by crows" is in any way a respectful way to treat dead bodies, they could even be calls mutilated if u ask me. no one is excusing the fray's here, i don't think this excuses here to do as she like's/ hang whom she pleases, thats all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROW'S 3YE Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Compared to the things done at the RW and other killings in the series, I'd say it's pretty vanilla. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 i'l reed it again but i think the kid recalls not being there at the wedding, even if he is, he dint kill or hurt or captured any one, First, that Frey "kid" is an adult that squired with Jaime and has IIRC two children thus he is hardly a kid. Secondly, he directly assisted in the task of attempting incapacitate one of Robb's guards to make it easier for his kin to kill Robb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon stark I Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 The whole appeal to "Westeros has medieval standars" is just false. When you have characters pointing out the injustice in several "medieval" acts, maybe it is just that they are influenced by GRRM and his modern morality, but the fact is that these characters are claiming in an in-character fashion, in their own Westeros context, that these things are wrong. And if they are able to point this out, or even think about these "modern" moral posibilites, then we are entitled to discus the justice in this actions on the same grounds as these characters. Sorry for bringing the show, but I think that in the book it was the same: Daenerys kills indiscriminately every slavemaster in Mereen and she calls it justice. Then Jorah comes and he calls it bs, that is not justice, that is another crime. If Jorah is able to think in those terms, why wouldn't we be entitled to discuss these issues using those same terms? Westeros is not mevieval England, and people know that collective punishment is just wrong. On the other hand, you claim that this is war, so they are justified because everyone involved knows the risks of being part of a war. You have to admit that the actions of the BWB are more similar to a guerilla style war or even terrorism than conventional war. These bandits are not fighting a war, they have no political or economical claim, they want nothing, only to destroy and burn things. They do not retain prisoners (they killed the Frey that Merret was going to bring back, and then stole his money), they kill unsuspecting people (that do not even know that they are in danger, it's not like they are going to a battlefield knowing the risks of fighting against an oponent), nor do they offer any conditions for peace or surrender: just death. It does not help that it seems that every crime that they are bringing justice against is punishable by death. I did not like Catelyn when she was alive, but her dead version is so insufferable that i started to see alive!Cat under a much better light. The Brienne chapter in which she is nearly hanged felt very forced to me. I truly want to believe that these BWB are not so evil, but I felt very pushed by GRRM to think they are. I could no believe that they didn't even let her make her case, and that they were threatening to hang a 12 year old boy. When Brienne tried to speak, they constantly interrupted her, and even if she wanted to confess, she did not have the oportunity, since they put the rope directly around her neck and threatened with hanging her unless she killed Jaime. I felt so rushed and out of place, like as if GRRM did not want to spoil what the deal with the BWB is, or what goes through LS mind. It felt like he needed Brienne there but just for a moment, because we cannot know too much about the BWB yet. Later, I learned not to criticise the book or the author until the work is completed, so I have to stick to the text. I cannot give LS any benefit of the doubt, because she does not show any nuance or motivation other that being the reincarnation of evil. BWB are terrorists?What did they burn?They are loved by the smallfolk they try to protect them as much as they can.You must be talking about the Lannisters and Freys.A terrorist tries to strike chaos with their actions and it doesn't look like BWB at all. You can't compare hangings with Danys actions those two are totally different.First of all BWB are at war.They are formed by people who are hurt by either Lannisters or Boltons or Freys or Karstarks.If you take a closer look to the BB chapters you will see that they have many peasents with them, those people are fighting for themselves.BWB doesn't go around killing smallfolk actually they have an orphanage the reason they caught Brienne was because they were there to check on them. About Brienne.They idn't gave her a chance because she had too many evidince against her.You say they didn't give her a chance to explain but how would she prove her innocence?Words are winds and who will Cat believe?Pod?Pod is a payne and Paynes are Lannister bannerman do you think LS will believe Pod?Last time she did all she got was a knife on her throat.There is noone other then Jaime who knows her true purpose and absurdly Jaime is the last man LS will believe because of what they do in RW.LS is looking at the evidince and it all points out Briene as a traitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Few of the Fingers Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 I did not want to make a comparison with Dany's action, I was jsut pointing out that we are not excluded from the discussion of "mmodern" morals, since Westerosis have shown to be simpathetic with our understanding of "modern" morals. The Dany thing was jjust an example. Regarding Pod, he is a 12 year old boy unlucky enough of being part of a house that are bannermen to the Lannisters. When Robb decapitated Rickard Karstark, he did not exterminate the Karstark family nor did he hang everyone that were vasals to the Karstarks. Again, collecive punishment is wrong (and not only in our modern world). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Regarding Pod, he is a 12 year old boy unlucky enough of being part of a house that are bannermen to the Lannisters. When Robb decapitated Rickard Karstark, he did not exterminate the Karstark family nor did he hang everyone that were vasals to the Karstarks. Again, collecive punishment is wrong (and not only in our modern world). Pod is around 14 in AFFC, in how he is mentioned by Tyrion as being 12 in ACOK. Moreover, Robb wouldn't do that as Karstark's men were northerners while Pod is a Westlander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 I did not want to make a comparison with Dany's action, I was jsut pointing out that we are not excluded from the discussion of "mmodern" morals, since Westerosis have shown to be simpathetic with our understanding of "modern" morals. The Dany thing was jjust an example. Regarding Pod, he is a 12 year old boy unlucky enough of being part of a house that are bannermen to the Lannisters. When Robb decapitated Rickard Karstark, he did not exterminate the Karstark family nor did he hang everyone that were vasals to the Karstarks. Again, collecive punishment is wrong (and not only in our modern world).No one questions Danys decision regarding Masters of Meereen in Books, so no modern standard there.Remember the Karstark soldier who just kept watch while others killed the lannister boys. That also was collective punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 No one questions Danys decision regarding Masters of Meereen in Books, so no modern standard there.Remember the Karstark soldier who just kept watch while others killed the lannister boys. That also was collective punishment.Nope, it wasn't, not at all. "Aiding and abetting" is a crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 I don't remember claiming what Stoneheart is doing is justice. But vengeance is godly anyway in the same way that guest right is sacred so I find her actions to be admirable and understandable. She is a godly woman, after all. @Spunky, I'm sorry if I mistook your unfamiliarity with English as trolling. Sometimes its hard to tell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Few of the Fingers Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 That she is hahaha. Of what gods, we are yet to know :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainTheo Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 What I really hate about the BWB here is that they broke guest right making them incredibly hypocritical. Brienne and her band were guests at that inn but Jeyne said something about guest right not meaning anything any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 What I really hate about the BWB here is that they broke guest right making them incredibly hypocritical. Brienne and her band were guests at that inn but Jeyne said something about guest right not meaning anything any more. They were guests at the inn, not the hollow hill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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