Significance of House Royce

[HexMachina]

TWOIAF will surely give us more info on the bronze armour of the Royces. IIRC there was a sample that leaked without permission in which the maester shed some light on the nature of the Royce armour :)

There was. *bites lip furiously*

[HexMachina]

How was it that Robar ended up in Renly's Rainbow Guard? It seems strange enough that Lysa Arryn would allow Bronze Yohn and other knights of the Vale permission to leave to attend the Tourney in KL, since she was already pretty paranoid about the Lannisters by this point (but probably had no authority to say something to Bronze Yohn himself, or only became that paranoid after the war started..).

But how did Robar end up in the Reach with Renly? He chose to go out there, but his father chose to return to the Vale? Just an interesting set of choices, that a Royce, (who then showed loyalty Catelyn), would end up with Renly.

Same way the Swann's covered their own backs maybe?

[Turin Turambar1]

The Royce family are a very special and important house . They are the second strongest house in The Vale , the oldest , with a magical armor and a bad ass leader Bronz Yohn .

I think that GRRM is plannig something big with them , just look how Waymar and Robar died , the first died at the hands of The Others beyond The Wall , the second died at the hands of Renly's litlle flower :lol: , just kidding Robar died just a few moments later when Renly got killed by a Shadow . So basically they died by Ice and Fire .

[chrisdaw]

I think bronze will end up paralleling the griffin king.

[Prince of the Green]

I think bronze will end up paralleling the griffin king.

The only possible end for him if that is the case is through the Moon Door. NO!

[chrisdaw]

Or dragon's fire, curious to know what this secret leaked info regarding the armor is.

[Veltigar]

Or dragon's fire, curious to know what this secret leaked info regarding the armor is.

It was really minor. And many here would think it's disappointing frankly.

[Chebyshov]

There words are "We Remember". I think they know who Sansa is and will help her get back to Winterfell and/or help the Tully's regain the Riverlands.

Plus Myranda was onto her.

[Fire Eater]

Bronze Yohn Royce will be a key player in the future of the Vale. GRRM's been setting him up since ACOK, having him mentioned sparaodically as the most outspoken leader in the Vale against Lysa Arryn's inaction in The War of the Five Kings. He also was said to have argued to join the North/Riverlands alliance, and I'm guessing this is because of his close relationship with House Stark - which is revealed through Sansa when she remembers Yohn Royce visiting Winterfell with Waymar on the way to the Wall. He's now the only member of the Lords Declarant who is actually trying to get rid Petyr Baelish and not falling for smiles (Symond Templeton), corruption (Benedar Belmore), in-fighting with family (Eon Hunter), little boys (Lyn Corbay), marriage alliances (Anya Waynwood) or inaction (Horton Redfort).

As you have been noted, his strained relationship with the Eyrie has been building up over a while, and it may reach a breaking point. I think it will come when Dany lands in the Vale. Tyrion and Yohn share the same enemy, LF, and as the saying goes: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Tyrion could try to court him as he is the most powerful Arryn bannerman. Along with letting Robert Arryn be fostered by Bronze Yohn, Tyrion could promise him justice for Robar's death which Yohn knows is impossible under the current Tyrell-Lannister regime.

Robar Royce was an honourable knight and he had a tragic death. He was shown to be just like his brother, too - not afraid of carrying out his duty. Compared to the majority of the minor characters in the series, I don't think I can think of many substitutes who would have accepted Catelyn's explanation so willingly and then helped her at the risk of his life - and indeed, Robar paid the ultimate price because of stupid Loras.

I liked Robar more than Waymar. Waymar was a typical, arrogant lordling with a feeling of superiority to more experienced rangers. Robar Royce seemed to lack that, although maybe it is because we saw him interacting with highborn people. I like him for the reasons stated above, he managed to show enough intelligence, especially in a very high-stress moment with Renly dead, to listen to Cat. He also showed nobility in sacrificing himself so Brienne and Catelyn can get away. I haven't forgiven Loras for that either.

Loras realized in ASoS that he killed two innocent men, and you would have thought that would have taught him to keep his temper under control, and practice better self-control, but that shows not to be the case.

[Minstral]

Aside from their obvious power in the Vale, almost without a doubt the most powerful of the Arryn vassals, I have a certain feeling that their signifigance can be tied to how they claim descent from the First Men. The Lannisters can claim the same but through the female line, so is theirs a more direct line or is garnered through marrying Northern houses? Either they somehow remained prominent or regained their prominence in the region that Andal nobility originated/remained the strongest, or they have some relationships up north that they have been building for some time. The latter can be inferred through Ned being made a ward of Jon Arryn and Roose sending his eldest to ward at the Redfort. And it would make sense that the two regions have been establishing ties since the conquest, as they have been allies in the Dance and the rebellion that ended the Targ dynasty, which would explain why so much of the nobility were for aiding the Starks in the Wot5K.

[chrisdaw]

They descend from the First Men of the Vale according to the Citadel.

[Hippocras]

why would Dany land in the Vale? It is really just one of many options, and not necessarily the most likely.

[Tyrus Martell]

As you have been noted, his strained relationship with the Eyrie has been building up over a while, and it may reach a breaking point. I think it will come when Dany lands in the Vale. Tyrion and Yohn share the same enemy, LF, and as the saying goes: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Tyrion could try to court him as he is the most powerful Arryn bannerman. Along with letting Robert Arryn be fostered by Bronze Yohn, Tyrion could promise him justice for Robar's death which Yohn knows is impossible under the current Tyrell-Lannister regime.

I do think when/if Tyrion ever comes back into significance in regards to the situation in the Vale, Yohn Royce will directly or indirectly help him. You're right, Littlefinger is definitely a common enemy and Yohn isn't exactly a bad ally to have. I'm sure Yohn is also itching for revenge against House Tyrell for Robar's death, even if the book hasn't given us a glimpse of his rage just yet.

Re-reading AFFC and Sansa's chapter where she meets him under the guise of Alayne, it's interesting to note how the Lords Declarant unanimously (with perhaps the exception of Lyn Corbay and Eon Hunter, both of who we know are playing their own games) support the plan of fostering Robert Arryn at Runestone with Bronze Yohn rather than one of them. And even when LF tries to play the "why not someone else" angle to cause some argument, Anya Waynwood dismisses and identifies his sly attempt fairly quickly.

Yohn is also the other member of the Lords Declarant to storm out in anger after LF tricks most of them with his stunt with Lyn Corbay. He's the only one LF identifies as a continuing future threat when LF confides in Sansa, and in ADWD news has already reached Sisteron and White Harbour of Yohn Royce publicly vowing to remove LF from his position (I added that to the wiki during my re-read).

If all of that, along with Sansa's memory of Yohn and Waymar in Winterfell in that same AFFC chapter, where Yohn kicks Ned Stark and Rodrik Cassel's asses in sparring by her remembrance, doesn't make Yohn a bad-ass mofo and signal plenty of foreshadowing of his upcoming importance in TWOW, I don't know what does. :P

I liked Robar more than Waymar. Waymar was a typical, arrogant lordling with a feeling of superiority to more experienced rangers. Robar Royce seemed to lack that, although maybe it is because we saw him interacting with highborn people. I like him for the reasons stated above, he managed to show enough intelligence, especially in a very high-stress moment with Renly dead, and his nobility in sacrificing himself so Brienne and Catelyn can get away. I haven't forgiven Loras for that either.

Loras realized in ASoS that he killed two innocent men, and you would have thought that would have taught him to keep his temper under control, and practice better self-control, but that doesn't shows not to be the case.

I like Robar more too, but it's only because we had so little time with Waymar. Waymar evidently had a major case of self-entitlement that only a noble could have, but he was also an overshadowed third son and brother to two great knights (Andar and Robar) and a great father (Yohn) who probably felt he needed to prove something. He still showed great courage when he faced that Other, and his line "dance with me, then" is one of the most bad-ass in the series (in my opinion).

And yeah it's good to see other people give Robar credit. That situation was so messed up and yet he was able to stay his hand when other men would have turned to bloodshed immediately, and he gave Catelyn enough time to explain herself, the benefit of the doubt, and then actually believe her enough to let her and Brienne leave the tent. Surely an intelligent man such as himself would know that action could possibly cost his life, but he did it anyway, and that's mad respect from me. Even dickheads like Hyle Hunt only had respect for Robar (in AFFC when speaking to Brienne about Robar's swordsmanship), so that's also saying something.

TL;DR - House Royce rocks, Loras Tyrell got what was coming to him.

[Fire Eater]

Yohn is also the other member of the Lords Declarant to storm out in anger after LF tricks most of them with his stunt with Lyn Corbay. He's the only one LF identifies as a continuing future threat when LF confides in Sansa, and in ADWD news has already reached Sisteron and White Harbour of Yohn Royce publicly vowing to remove LF from his position (I added that to the wiki during my re-read).

If all of that, along with Sansa's memory of Yohn and Waymar in Winterfell in that same AFFC chapter, where Yohn kicks Ned Stark and Rodrik Cassel's asses in sparring by her remembrance, doesn't make Yohn a bad-ass mofo and signal plenty of foreshadowing of his upcoming importance in TWOW, I don't know what does. :P

Yohn is looking for an opportunity. I wouldn't call him a man completely set on honor, but from the looks of it a man trying to further the influence and power of his house. He held the melee for squires for Harry, Robert's heir, to win the honors, and knighted Harry himself. He also laid siege to the Eyrie, and with that to Robert, so he could have the Lord of the Eyrie as his ward. He only waited until after Lysa's death.

And yeah it's good to see other people give Robar credit. That situation was so messed up and yet he was able to stay his hand when other men would have turned to bloodshed immediately, and he gave Catelyn enough time to explain herself, the benefit of the doubt, and then actually believe her enough to let her and Brienne leave the tent. Surely an intelligent man such as himself would know that action could possibly cost his life, but he did it anyway, and that's mad respect from me. Even dickheads like Hyle Hunt only had respect for Robar (in AFFC when speaking to Brienne about Robar's swordsmanship), so that's also saying something.

TL;DR - House Royce rocks, Loras Tyrell got what was coming to him.

If you ask me I think Robar was more deserving of the white cloak than Loras. On Dragontsone, the boiling oil will likely have left Loras permanently scarred, and lost much of his (former) beauty.

[Khal Shaggydog]

The more times you re-read, the more respect you will gain for Waymar. He is a prick to start, just like most other nobles, even third born sons (or perhaps them so much more), and he is absolutely idiotic and arrogant in his contempt for the two more experienced rangers that he is out with. He didnt deserve to lead that ranging, and he is ultimately responsible for their three deaths. BUT - considering the Others are essentially treated like a fiction in all of Westeros (like the boogeyman, the chupacabra, ghosts, etc), when faced with one, the young punk straight up THROWS DOWN, and that is pretty impressive.

Perhaps he had some idea what he was facing, since as a Royce "he remembered". But I doubt it. Either way, when faced with a literal monster (no disrespect to the heresy people, we don't know what they are up to yet besides slaughtering wildings and rangers alike), he faced them with bravery and bravado, so I'll give him that.

On the potential situation of Tyrion and Dany arriving in the Vale....ok, that is a huge jump since we have no idea whether or not they will be allied or where or when or how they will even get to Westeros.....but if that happens, it would be an interesting race to the ass kissing between Bronze Yohn and LF (if the status quo remains the same as it currently stands, which is again a huge assumption). IF that does happen, I could see Sansa being the obviously pivotal card on both factions' side - LF would try and press her based on what he thinks he has over her head, while Sansa could choose the man she actually thinks is honorable and a true friend to her family, Bronze Yohn, and she would also have to make some sort of deal with her actual husband (painful) and Dany, who will probably still think of her as the daughter of one of the Userpors dogs.

All that said, Tyrion in the Vale, in any instance (with or without Dany), is a great topic of speculation because he knows how F-ed up LF is, he hates him for good reason, and Tyrion has one major ace in the hole - the wild tribes of the Mountains. Will be interesting to see any of those relationships rekindled.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The more times you re-read, the more respect you will gain for Waymar. He is a prick to start, just like most other nobles, even third born sons (or perhaps them so much more), and he is absolutely idiotic and arrogant in his contempt for the two more experienced rangers that he is out with. He didnt deserve to lead that ranging, and he is ultimately responsible for their three deaths. BUT - considering the Others are essentially treated like a fiction in all of Westeros (like the boogeyman, the chupacabra, ghosts, etc), when faced with one, the young punk straight up THROWS DOWN, and that is pretty impressive.

Perhaps he had some idea what he was facing, since as a Royce "he remembered". But I doubt it. Either way, when faced with a literal monster (no disrespect to the heresy people, we don't know what they are up to yet besides slaughtering wildings and rangers alike), he faced them with bravery and bravado, so I'll give him that.

In fact, you may need another re-read or two, you still have some respect to gain :cool4:

The prologue is basically Jon's story arc reduced to a dozen pages, told from the perspective of Bowen Marsh. Those two "experienced rangers" are utter idiots hiding their heads in the snow at best and mutineers at worst.

Every single word out Gared's mouth is quite obviously bullshit and Ser Waymar is right to dismiss him. Will fares a bit better, but he rarely offers any insight of his own and has to have Ser Waymar point out almost everything for him.

[Michael Sixskins Bolton]

The more times you re-read, the more respect you will gain for Waymar. He is a prick to start, just like most other nobles, even third born sons (or perhaps them so much more), and he is absolutely idiotic and arrogant in his contempt for the two more experienced rangers that he is out with. He didnt deserve to lead that ranging, and he is ultimately responsible for their three deaths. BUT - considering the Others are essentially treated like a fiction in all of Westeros (like the boogeyman, the chupacabra, ghosts, etc), when faced with one, the young punk straight up THROWS DOWN, and that is pretty impressive.

It's stupid, it's arrogant and it's childish... and in the end, all of his bad decisions add up to getting himself and his common-born subordinate killed. It's not Jon's story arc reduced to a few pages as Blue Eyes says, but the events in the entire series reduced to a few pages. The petty squabbles, greed and arrogance of the noble houses of Westeros and all of their noble lackeys get tens of thousands of nameless smallfolk killed in TWot5K, and thousands more will die when winter comes and the food stores are empty (not to mention any Targ-led invasions or the Others wreaking havoc).

Yeah, it makes for an entertaining and intriguing story, but realistically by the end, I think the people of Westeros will have had enough, and some social upheaval will have to happen.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Shultz is a spelling from Switzerland, as far as I know.

How come nobody has mentioned that a Stark man took a Royce wife in recent (within the last 100 years or so) history? Actually I think two of them did. Both women had the same name, Lora Royce. Can't remember but I think all of our modern Starks are descended from one of those Loras.

[Hippocras]

It's been mentioned.

I am also very intrigued by Rhea Royce, first wife of Daemon Targaryen - same one whose third wife was Rhaenyra.

[Hippocras]

I just thought of something:

If the LF-Tyrell alliance is still actived and headed somewhere as has been strongly hinted in the show and more subtly hinted in the books, then the Royces are a clue to where this might be going.

The Royces may be a roadblock because of Loras's rash actions or...

Lord Royce's son was loyal to Renly as was Loras. Loras killed the son, but likely regrets that very much. He heard about Stannis's shadow from Brienne, and seems to have been persuaded. He may want to make up for his rash slaughter of Lord Royce's son by killing Stannis.

In other words it is possible the Royces are a connection piece in the alliance and not antagonists, unified in a desire to defeat Stannis.