How would you rate episode 408?

[PatrickStormborn]

I am too.

In Dance there are what? ~ 14 Daenerys chapters, if one counts the Quentyn Martell ones (something like that) , on the page I enjoy George's 'looping' around . I know we get Barristan Selmy's POV interjected into the story... all this works on the page, for me,... but when I think of Dance, and we are into it now, besides the BIG scene and Quentyn's story what does one translate to a visual narrative at Meereen?

Inventing a , what seems to be (can only be) Platonic relations ship between Missandei and Grey Worm is a great subplot, since have had an age up (forced by law) of Missandei , so use it for drama... I like it.

It's not quite the same, but anyone around here know the Héloïse - Abélard story?

I agree with the analysis of this as given by the captains of this forum...

There are 10 Daenerys chapters in ADwD. Quentyn has 2 prior to meeting Daenerys, and 2 after she leaves the city. Barristan has 4 after she leaves the city.

And please, aging Missandei up was not "forced by law", nor does it mean she should be sexualised or forced into a romance subplot. Why couldn't the showrunners age her up and make her more active in Dany's councils? In the books she actually advises Dany; in the show, despite being significantly older, she is little more than a handmaid and a herald.

I am familiar with the story of Abelard and Heloise. Apart from the obvious (his castration), I fail to see any similarities whatsoever... particularly as his castration takes place after their relationship, not before.

I'm actually really curious about what problem do people have with Missandei and Grey Worm's scenes- is it that they feel that Grey Worm cannot have affection without lust? Surely, it can't be about it being filler, since we don't even know where this is going. I thought it was a wonderful and quiet moment, something the show does very rarely.

Bad writing, poor characterisation (of Missandei), and ultimately it's just boring filler that can never advance the plot.

If I wanted to see what a relationship between Missandei and Grey Worm could potentially be like, I have no doubt that I could go and find some far better fanfiction.

I found the way they handled Rakharo and Irri to be more interesting, and that wasn't in the books either so let's not try and pretend that this is about book purism.

Edited June 3, 2014 by PatrickStormborn

[kissdbyfire]

The difference between affection for say, a cute little puppy, and affection between a man and a woman is sexual desire. Without some kind of hormone replacement therapy, a man who has been castrated isn't going to experience such desire... and certainly not to the extent implied in the show when Grey Worm was watching Missandei in the river.

It just seems like the show producers can't bear the thought having two good looking actors on screen without some kind of sexual encounter happening. The fact that Unsullied are fully castrated in the books - i.e. the pillar and the stones are completely removed - probably won't even stop them from showing what they want to show.

And beyond being a butchery of everything we know of the Unsullied from the books, I just don't find the relationship entertaining in any way. Friendship between the two characters would be fine as long as it doesn't make up too much filler content, but what they're showing is the kind of cringeworthy tripe i'd expect to see in a bad romance drama or some awful fanfiction story. It's bad enough that I have to tolerate the cheese fest that is show-Daario, D&D's Daenerys worship, and Emilia's bad acting.

I'd like you to clarify the bolded part of your post for me, please. Are you actually saying that there can't be affection between a man and a woman without sexual desire?

[JagLover]

I gave my first 10 of the season.

Yes some of the scenes weren't perfect. But the episode would have been a great one even without the fight at the end-a fight which was awesome!

Sansa, Theon, Tyrion all great scenes and even Mereen was interesting this week!

[boojam]

And please, aging Missandei up was not "forced by law", nor does it mean she should be sexualised or forced into a romance subplot. Why couldn't the showrunners age her up and make her more active in Dany's councils? In the books she actually advises Dany; in the show, despite being significantly older, she is little more than a handmaid and a herald.

I am familiar with the story of Abelard and Heloise. Apart from the obvious (his castration), I fail to see any similarities whatsoever... particularly as his castration takes place after their relationship, not before.

The 'aging up' of the Stark kids WAS required by UK and USA child actor employment law, that is if one wanted them to be even on the edges of ADULT material, that was dictated before the show started. Even if they did not engage in the Adult stuff ,as GRRM does period-wise in the books. We have been thought this a 100 times.

They absolutely had to do it for Dany's story or everybody on the production would have been arrested on the spot!

Since they did away with Dany's Dothraki handmaidens, it was a dead cinch Missandei would become that. (I am still mad they don't still have Dany's Dothraki ladies!) but they did keep Missandei.

So how you adapt those Dany chapters from Dance?

You have read the Abelard and Heloise letters?, well the ones loaded with passion, that was after the castration event.

You have a different take?

Edited June 3, 2014 by boojam

[boojam]

I'd like you to clarify the bolded part of your post for me, please. Are you actually saying that there can't be affection between a man and a woman without sexual desire?

Actually there can both affection and sexual desire between a man and woman that adds up to Agápe with unfulfilled Éros , a Platonic bitter sweetness.

So I agree with you the bolded part needs explanation.

[Frey Pies]

The difference between affection for say, a cute little puppy, and affection between a man and a woman is sexual desire. Without some kind of hormone replacement therapy, a man who has been castrated isn't going to experience such desire... and certainly not to the extent implied in the show when Grey Worm was watching Missandei in the river.

It just seems like the show producers can't bear the thought having two good looking actors on screen without some kind of sexual encounter happening. The fact that Unsullied are fully castrated in the books - i.e. the pillar and the stones are completely removed - probably won't even stop them from showing what they want to show.

And beyond being a butchery of everything we know of the Unsullied from the books, I just don't find the relationship entertaining in any way. Friendship between the two characters would be fine as long as it doesn't make up too much filler content, but what they're showing is the kind of cringeworthy tripe i'd expect to see in a bad romance drama or some awful fanfiction story. It's bad enough that I have to tolerate the cheese fest that is show-Daario, D&D's Daenerys worship, and Emilia's bad acting.

Isn't there a part in the books where someone is talking to Dany about some Unsullied going to brothels to feel a woman's soft touch? I'm pretty sure there is- this is just a sub-plot that's been influenced by that. There's no butchery as you stated. By the way, D&D's Daenerys worship is a false belief- they have clearly shown her as being capable of making rash and questionable decisions. Have you not watched any episode after Breaker of Chains? Because, so far, we've had:

Oathkeeper: Dany chaining up the masters, against Barristan's advice. Nazi-Targ banner ominously sprawling over Meereen.

The Laws of Gods and Men: Her decisions being questioned even further, with her morality being questioned by the Joel Fry's awesome Hizdahr.

Mockingbird: Jorah questioning Dany's decision-making, and Dany even conceding that she was wrong.

The Mountain and the Viper itself: Daenerys rashly banishing Jorah.

^Seriously, I don't know how anyone could say that Dany is being depicted as a hero or whatever after all that has transpired up until now this season.

One last, minor point- show Daario is not the greatest of characters, but no one, NO ONE (except Darkstar of the night) can be worse than the blue, shallow book Daario.

[PatrickStormborn]

The 'aging up' of the Stark kids WAS required by UK and USA child actor employment law, that is if one wanted them to be even on the edges of ADULT material, that was dictated before the show started. Even if they did not engage in the Adult stuff ,as GRRM does period-wise in the books. We have been thought this a 100 times.

They absolutely had to do it for Dany's story or everybody on the production would have been arrested on the spot!

Since they did away with Dany's Dothraki handmaidens, it was a dead cinch Missandei would become that. (I am still mad they don't still have Dany's Dothraki ladies!) but they did keep Missandei.

So how you adapt those Dany chapters from Dance?

You have read the Abelard and Heloise letters?, well the ones loaded with passion, that was after the castration event.

You have a different take?

I'm really tired of arguing about whether they had to make Missandei older. Yes, there's no way they could let a 10 year old play her, but that didn't mean she had to be an adult. But most importantly, if they had to make her an adult, why not actually make her a vital part of "team Daenerys"? In the books she was vital to Dany's understanding of Slaver's Bay; in the show, she doesn't even know the extent of the Unsullied's castration.

You adapt those Dany chapters from Dance by, I don't know... adapting those chapters? Seriously, just go and read them. They're FULL of material to use. Dany's narrative in ADwD is about being trapped in Meereen, with enemies approaching her from all sides, and deciding to submit to them in an attempt to survive. But then she throws away her "floppy ears" in defiance, flies away on Drogon, and comes to the realisation that she needs to abandon Meereen.

And yes, I have a very different take on those letters. You say they are "loaded with passion" and I won't disagree, but it's important that it happens AFTER he's already sexually developed and AFTER they have engaged in a sexual relationship. Grey Worm, on the other hand, can't even remember his life before he was cut.

And seriously, the whole point of the Unsullied is that they don't have sexual desire... but Grey Worm still stares at Missandei? It's terrible writing and it's a pretty dumb plot hole.

[XTwipz]

Still can't face at the outcome of the duel... Oh god... I expected something hard but .. this ? This is true, when you love a character, he's going to die a few episodes after... Anyway it was a great one ! And I'm afraid of the 9. They're always horrible and awful !

[Pure Guava]

Writers are not credited per-scene, that's what I said, and that's what I meant.

I'd imagine that the writers are responsible for the scenes in the episode they're credited with penning, minus the random scene being moved around. But seeing as the only writers this season aside from GRRM himself and Bryan Cogman are David and Dan...it's likely to assume they wrote what you're seeing.

Did you guys actually like how Gregor practically squished oberyns head like a watermelon?

It felt extremely unrealistic. I mean, I can understand someone getting their face smashed in by a gauntlet, but squishing someones head to watermelon? come on... really?

http://time.com/2809061/game-of-thrones-exploding-head/

[Daske]

And seriously, the whole point of the Unsullied is that they don't have sexual desire... but Grey Worm still stares at Missandei? It's terrible writing and it's a pretty dumb plot hole.

People and feelings and love are far too complicated for this to be dismissed as a dumb plot hole. It's clearly not just the physical aspect that is at play. They have become close emotionally - that's been shown from both sides. He is falling in love with her regardless of his ability to feel 'normal' sexual desire. Is that really impossible? Who's to say he can't help staring at the beautiful woman he has a connection with without getting a rush of blood to his groin - can't he appreciate beauty? He can obviously see the inner beauty without balls, why not the outer?

Pretty sure love is more than just hormones or the ability to have sex. Now granted they usually play a part - which does make this an interesting relationship. But to dismiss as impossible is to ignore the wide variety of human nature. Maybe think of them as soulmates rather than fuck buddies if that helps.

[SerArthurHeath]

8/10

2 points for each of Oberyns eyes

6 points for his crushed skull

That would make 10...

[Ugly Little Girl]

Would've been a 9 for me, but I bumped it to 10 to compensate for the people who voted 1 or 2 because GRRM never wrote about beetles.

[sj4iy]

Would've been a 9 for me, but I bumped it to 10 to compensate for the people who voted 1 or 2 because GRRM never wrote about beetles.

There were a few things I didn't like about this episode, but the beetles' story was good.

[Frey Pies]

There were a few things I didn't like about this episode, but the beetles' story was good.

Yeah, the beetles' story was amazing! I don't know why everyone is hating on it.

[~No One~]

Ok, first time voting! I went with 9/10.

Basically, it took me until now to decide how much I liked the episode, and I think that this is why, if for no other reason, the episode (and whole show) are so good. Art is supposed to be controversial, it is supposed to evoke emotions, debate, etc., no?

I give a full 8 of those points for the execution (heh) of the duel. I had faith it would be done à la book canon, and I was satisfied. The other point comes from throwing a curveball to us book walkers.

There has been complaining about some (non-book) scenes, but don't we as readers feel like we "know the material better" because characters are fleshed out, there is backstory, etc.? Well, the show is doing that, now. Differently. But that is exciting, too, I think.

I do not apply any of the changes as made on the show to what GRRM is writing, because I believe that all doubt as to whether these are two separate stories has now been removed. Both are vectors for the same overall story, but the 'how' will be different, I believe. The end game for each (major) character might not be different, but that is only a small part of a 70-hour story.

So, for all the (non-rape-related) debate this episode has stirred up, 9 points!

ETA: loss of one point for no Tyrion vomit. Woulda been too funny to have that in :/

Edited June 3, 2014 by ~No One~

[Jon Black]

Would've been a 9 for me, but I bumped it to 10 to compensate for the people who voted 1 or 2 because GRRM never wrote about beetles.

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Excellent post. :bowdown:

Edited June 3, 2014 by Jon Black

[Conchobar]

Would've been a 9 for me, but I bumped it to 10 to compensate for the people who voted 1 or 2 because GRRM never wrote about beetles.

lol

[boojam]

I'm really tired of arguing about whether they had to make Missandei older. Yes, there's no way they could let a 10 year old play her, but that didn't mean she had to be an adult. But most importantly, if they had to make her an adult, why not actually make her a vital part of "team Daenerys"? In the books she was vital to Dany's understanding of Slaver's Bay; in the show, she doesn't even know the extent of the Unsullied's castration.

You adapt those Dany chapters from Dance by, I don't know... adapting those chapters? Seriously, just go and read them. They're FULL of material to use. Dany's narrative in ADwD is about being trapped in Meereen, with enemies approaching her from all sides, and deciding to submit to them in an attempt to survive. But then she throws away her "floppy ears" in defiance, flies away on Drogon, and comes to the realisation that she needs to abandon Meereen.

And yes, I have a very different take on those letters. You say they are "loaded with passion" and I won't disagree, but it's important that it happens AFTER he's already sexually developed and AFTER they have engaged in a sexual relationship. Grey Worm, on the other hand, can't even remember his life before he was cut.

And seriously, the whole point of the Unsullied is that they don't have sexual desire... but Grey Worm still stares at Missandei? It's terrible writing and it's a pretty dumb plot hole.

You know how to adapt Dany's chapter's in Dance? I have read them,... as visual drama, I don't know how to do that in 10 one hour episodes.

I leave that up to the show runners, we shall just have to see.

It's odd that GRRM has a whole army of emasculated men... low or no levels of testosterone lessons aggression not exactly something one wants in a soldier.

But castration or total emasculation can be imperfect leaving even the possibility of minimal generation of testosterone.

But hey this is an alternate universe 'Earth'!

We already have George appealing to Valyrian homozygosity as producing extreme psychological disorder , which in this world rarely leads to mental illness, but is most likely to produces physical defects. Not on Planetos.

We know that sexual attraction or just erotic attraction can originate in brain function apart from testosterone level , that's true both in this universe and possibly GRRM's universe.

I don't remember reading in ASoIaF that the Unsullied absolutely had no desires of any kind.

Edited June 3, 2014 by boojam

[Pure Guava]

Yeah, the beetles' story was amazing! I don't know why everyone is hating on it.

Glad to see the beetle tide changing.

[~DarkHorse~]

I gave it a 9/10

I thought the Beetle speech was clever and sets the tone of the world they live in. People are being needlessly crushed all the time and the person who crushes them thinks little of it. It reminds me of Tywin- he crushed allot of people but in the end he will be kicked by the mule (rather unflattering death for someone demonstrating such power). However, I would've rather seen more of a pre-duel build up with Oberyn (character we are losing), not just Tyrion.

The Duel- The acting was perfect! I got goose bumps when the volume in his accusation rose with "YOU KILLED HER CHILDREN!" and pointing at Tywin "who gave you the order?" (bringing him down too). The death scene was brutal and left me haunted, exactly as it should do.

Sansa- I like seeing manipulative Sansa but I didn't like Littlefinger being completely at her mercy. I can get on board with Sansa learning faster though.

Arya Laughing- One of the funniest scenes on the show. I loved this!

Jon and Gang- I like seeing scenes with the NW boys so it was nice seeing them all dwell over their approaching doom and comforting Sam. So far most of the NW scenes have been forgettable (except the Crasters keep fight).

I also think the Boltons are being set up nicely as the 'tyrants' of the North. The scene with them marching toward Winterfell peeved me off. Hate those guys!

I have no problem with Grey Worm/ Missandei especially because all of the other romances have gone down the drain. However, I feel as if this is the Essos version of Sam/Gilly which is the only other romance we have left.

Why was the Camera up Dany's nose during the banishing Jorah scene? I felt uncomfortable.

Overall, great episode!

Edited June 3, 2014 by ~DarkHorse~