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[Book Spoilers] The Pardon


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Can someone help me understand Jorah's pardon? Wasn't he already pardoned back in Season 1 just before the wine merchant's attempt on Dany's life? So my questions are:



1) Was he being pardoned for a second time and, if so, what where his crimes subsequent to the first pardon?


2) Does the Hand even have the authority to issue a royal pardon?


3) If this recent pardon was simply a reissuance of the original pardon-


a] How did Tywin even know about the original pardon?


b] Since the original pardon produced no effect whatsoever, what possibly expectation would he have for reissuing it?


4) Why does Dany care so much about an alleged betrayal which occurred years ago and basically had no ramifications?


5) Were her marriage and pregnancy supposed to be secrets? (if so, the big wedding ceremony was a pretty stupid idea...)


6) Doesn't the fact that Jorah was pardoned many years ago and still chose to remain by Dany's side speak to his devotion to her?




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Tywin resend that royal pardon to barristan, exactly hoping that dany would do what she does: send away a valuable advisor



so:


1) nope, still the same pardon


2) yes, he has every authorithy the king has, as long as the king doesnt overrule him on something.


3) a; Varys probably b; check the council scene in laws of gods and men; they talk about this. at the end of the scene, Tywin asks commands Mace to fetch quill and paper...


4) its an emotional 16 year old girl? and its not years ago, i think its about a year in real life.


5) Her marriage, no. but having the enemy king knowing you are pregnant before your husband, i can see the problem in that. plus, it started attempts on her life. added with the 16 year old girl thing again.


6) it does, but dany doesnt seem to have a eye for it.

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5) Were her marriage and pregnancy supposed to be secrets? (if so, the big wedding ceremony was a pretty stupid idea...)



Her pregnancy was what triggered the attempt on her life,


And remember she had been on the run from Roberts assassin's (Real and Imagined) for all of her life,


Jorah had essentially been betraying her to her childhood monsters


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Yea this xerox copy thing is really starting to annoy me.

They did that with Yara reading out the letter on the ship too . Balon Greyjoy put the original in the fire.. somehow Yara managed to get a xerox before that..

i didn't even notice with that asha scene...now i'm annoyed because i loved her awesome speech.
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I have to admit, I'm not sure I remembered that Balon had burnt the letter Asha/Yara later read to her men before the Theon rescue attempt.



More importantly than whether or not there are lots of easily obtained carbon copies of important paperwork throughout the Realm, I'm wondering how Tywin's copy of the pardon reached Mereen almost as fast as a FAX would get there?

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Can someone help me understand Jorah's pardon? Wasn't he already pardoned back in Season 1 just before the wine merchant's attempt on Dany's life? So my questions are:

1) Was he being pardoned for a second time and, if so, what where his crimes subsequent to the first pardon?

2) Does the Hand even have the authority to issue a royal pardon?

3) If this recent pardon was simply a reissuance of the original pardon-

a] How did Tywin even know about the original pardon?

b] Since the original pardon produced no effect whatsoever, what possibly expectation would he have for reissuing it?

4) Why does Dany care so much about an alleged betrayal which occurred years ago and basically had no ramifications?

5) Were her marriage and pregnancy supposed to be secrets? (if so, the big wedding ceremony was a pretty stupid idea...)

6) Doesn't the fact that Jorah was pardoned many years ago and still chose to remain by Dany's side speak to his devotion to her?

This was shown a couple episodes ago, when Tywin asked Mace to get him some paper and a quill. That's what he was doing then, is forging a pardon from Robert Baratheon. He reissued it for the exact effect that it had: tearing Dany's group apart. He probably gave instructions for it to be handed to Selmy instead of Jorah. He would easily know about the initial pardon from Varys. From Dany's standpoint, she doesn't know that Jorah was already pardoned once before. That's the point. As far as she knows, this is his first pardon, just finally reaching him. So she had no reason to know he was still devoted.

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5) Were her marriage and pregnancy supposed to be secrets? (if so, the big wedding ceremony was a pretty stupid idea...)

Her pregnancy was what triggered the attempt on her life,

And remember she had been on the run from Roberts assassin's (Real and Imagined) for all of her life,

Jorah had essentially been betraying her to her childhood monsters

The attempt on her life was what finally convinced Drogo to head to Westeros and win her - and their child - the throne. And in traveling to Westeros, Drogo and Rhaego were killed. Dany is putting all those consequences on Jorah's shoulders.

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Yea this xerox copy thing is really starting to annoy me.

They did that with Yara reading out the letter on the ship too . Balon Greyjoy put the original in the fire.. somehow Yara managed to get a xerox before that..

It would be normal for people to send more than one copy of important letters to ensure it reaches its destination, but I agree, since Ramsey's letter was attached to a box, it was unusual that there was a second copy. My guess is that D&D would explain this by saying that Ramsey sent an extra letter in case the one that was suppose to come with the box got lost.

Apparently they had carbon copies of pardons in Westeros.

They often make more than one copy and sent more than one raven/messenger to ensure the information reaches its destination. I think there is a scene in the novels where 3 copies of an important letter are sent.

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4) Why does Dany care so much about an alleged betrayal which occurred years ago and basically had no ramifications?

5) Were her marriage and pregnancy supposed to be secrets? (if so, the big wedding ceremony was a pretty stupid idea...)

4) It did have ramifications. Learning about her pregnancy led to Robert ordering an assassination attempt, which lead to Drogo preparing to head to Westeros, which led to the raid on the Lazareen (slaves grab), which led to MMD and eventually the deaths of Drogo and Rhaego.

5) Her marriage probably not, but her pregnancy? Yes.

Yea this xerox copy thing is really starting to annoy me.

They did that with Yara reading out the letter on the ship too . Balon Greyjoy put the original in the fire.. somehow Yara managed to get a xerox before that..

I hadn't noticed that about Ramsay's letter to the Greyjoys! Kind of hilarious in hindsight :lol:

As for the xerox pardon: Does anybody know what happened to the original pardon that was handed to Jorah? Did he destroy it? Did Varys' little birds get it back somehow? Personally, I think the new pardon was a forgery, written by Tywin. Remember that it's not usually the king who writes those things - it's his Hand. The king only signs and stamps it and I'm pretty sure they have Robert's seal and some document with his signature lying around the read keep, making it very easy to forge a pardon.

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The attempt on her life was what finally convinced Drogo to head to Westeros and win her - and their child - the throne. And in traveling to Westeros, Drogo and Rhaego were killed. Dany is putting all those consequences on Jorah's shoulders.

Pretty much this. Whether it is right or not, Jorah is to blame in her eyes - also by staying loyal to the people who killed her family.

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This was shown a couple episodes ago, when Tywin asked Mace to get him some paper and a quill. That's what he was doing then, is forging a pardon from Robert Baratheon. He reissued it for the exact effect that it had: tearing Dany's group apart. He probably gave instructions for it to be handed to Selmy instead of Jorah. He would easily know about the initial pardon from Varys. From Dany's standpoint, she doesn't know that Jorah was already pardoned once before. That's the point. As far as she knows, this is his first pardon, just finally reaching him. So she had no reason to know he was still devoted.

The little bird specifically called to Lord Barristan, so that looks to be true - that he was intended to receive it, with Tywin knowing how he would react and what he would do

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I rewatched the scene with Balon getting the "Theon is in the box" letter. He does not burn it, he only sits near the fire and screws the letter in his hands.

Good. Didnt want anything to ruin my enjoyment of the later Badass Asha scene.
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Her pregnancy was what triggered the attempt on her life,

And remember she had been on the run from Roberts assassin's (Real and Imagined) for all of her life,

Jorah had essentially been betraying her to her childhood monsters

I suppose that's rather my point. If the Usurper had been trying to kill her her entire life then the information about her pregnancy didn't trigger anything. It would be one thing had she been trying to keep her pregnancy a secret, but since it was public information it's not as though Robert wouldn't have learned about it in due time without Jorah's help.

Dany mentions that the pardon was signed by Robert during the year that she and Jorah met, so if she weren't a complete moron she'd probably wonder why it took so long to arrive and why it came to Selmy and not Mormont. If she assumes that this is the first time that Jorah is learning of the pardon I suppose it legitimizes her discontentment somewhat.

I still don't understand how Tywin would know that (1) Dany and Semly had no prior knowledge of the original pardon, (2) Dany would respond to it so completely irrationally (nevermind why someone immature enough to respond that irrationally would be considered any type of threat in Westeros - I guess "dragons"), and (3) why Jorah would be the target of his scheme in the first place.

What exactly does removing Mormont from the equation accomplish for Tywin? And come to think of it, how does Tywin even know that Selmy has joined up with Dany (let alone that he'll respond to the pardon as irrationally as the teenage girl)?

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I suppose that's rather my point. If the Usurper had been trying to kill her her entire life then the information about her pregnancy didn't trigger anything. It would be one thing had she been trying to keep her pregnancy a secret, but since it was public information it's not as though Robert wouldn't have learned about it in due time without Jorah's help.

Dany mentions that the pardon was signed by Robert during the year that she and Jorah met, so if she weren't a complete moron she'd probably wonder why it took so long to arrive and why it came to Selmy and not Mormont. If she assumes that this is the first time that Jorah is learning of the pardon I suppose it legitimizes her discontentment somewhat.

I still don't understand how Tywin would know that (1) Dany and Semly had no prior knowledge of the original pardon, (2) Dany would respond to it so completely irrationally (nevermind why someone immature enough to respond that irrationally would be considered any type of threat in Westeros - I guess "dragons"), and (3) why Jorah would be the target of his scheme in the first place.

What exactly does removing Mormont from the equation accomplish for Tywin? And come to think of it, how does Tywin even know that Selmy has joined up with Dany (let alone that he'll respond to the pardon as irrationally as the teenage girl)?

Robert kept his eye on Dany for awhile, but the knowledge of her pregnancy was what accelerated him into action at that point. That's what led to the scene with Ned leaving.

Considering the message had to pass the narrow sea and then make its way to Slaver's Bay, I don't think it would be that unusual for a message to get delayed, especially if delays occurred en route. The ships that are carrying the messages don't usually care about the messages aboard, so if something comes up causing them to change course instead of heading straight to Essos, messages could be delayed many months or longer. Sometimes ships will sink or messengers will be killed. In their time period, I think they would get used to receiving messages extremely late.

Tywin had nothing to lose. If Dany already knew about the original pardon, then the only thing he lost was a piece of paper and his time writing the forgery. But if Dany didn't already know, then he had an opportunity to estrange her from Mormont, who was acting as a seasoned advisor to her. Why wouldn't he try to do that? In addition, as a bonus, it creates a chance that Mormont might come back to King's Landing and tell them every single detail of what Dany has been up to and is planning.

As for why Dany would act so harshly? From her perspective, Mormont may have been acting as a spy right up until the present time. The fact that he wasn't honest with her earlier was his downfall.

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Is this pardon business really that hard to grasp??? It seems freakin' obvious to me.

I suppose that's rather my point. If the Usurper had been trying to kill her her entire life then the information about her pregnancy didn't trigger anything. It would be one thing had she been trying to keep her pregnancy a secret, but since it was public information it's not as though Robert wouldn't have learned about it in due time without Jorah's help.


Word would have reached Robert eventually, but Dany was faaar away by this point in the middle of the Dothraki sea. Remember that Jorah rode to Qohor to send word as soon as he found out, to make sure the info got to Varys/Robert ASAP. Yes, Robert already wanted Dany dead, but after finding out that she was pregnant, he became even more desperate to kill her.

Dany mentions that the pardon was signed by Robert during the year that she and Jorah met, so if she weren't a complete moron she'd probably wonder why it took so long to arrive and why it came to Selmy and not Mormont. If she assumes that this is the first time that Jorah is learning of the pardon I suppose it legitimizes her discontentment somewhat.


Of course she realizes that it was sent to sow discord, since it was sent to Selmy - not Mormont. But once she knows that he has betrayed her, she has to do *something* about it. Tywin gambled on the fact that Mormont would not have told her.

I still don't understand how Tywin would know that (1) Dany and Semly had no prior knowledge of the original pardon, (2) Dany would respond to it so completely irrationally (nevermind why someone immature enough to respond that irrationally would be considered any type of threat in Westeros - I guess "dragons"), and (3) why Jorah would be the target of his scheme in the first place.

What exactly does removing Mormont from the equation accomplish for Tywin? And come to think of it, how does Tywin even know that Selmy has joined up with Dany (let alone that he'll respond to the pardon as irrationally as the teenage girl)?

It's a gamble from Tywin, sure. The worst possible outcome is that Dany has already forgiven Mormont. The best possible outcome is that this weakens Dany by forcing her to kill or remove one of her trusted advisers. But all it cost him was "postage", so why the heck shouldn't he?

What is it that you don't understand?

------------------

And BTW, this was probably not a forgery. Just a copy that was made at the time the pardon was issued by Robert. It seems quite logical that many copies of royal decrees and messages would be made. Tywin could simply at the meeting written an order for the royal archivist to dig up a copy of the pardon.

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Yup, very sad. Jorah was actually Dany's enemy when they first met, because spying on her and Viserys. If he betrayed anyone, it was the Iron Throne, because he turned his back on them to protect and serve her for real.

However, Dany does not see it this way.

Actually, I think the real story is Dany most of all hated knowing Jorah loved her. That was the real friendship-poison, and this is a handy excuse to get rid of him.

Sending the pardon to Selmy had a fair chance of producing the desired effect.

Yup. Tywin is good at treachery. That "pardon" message went exactly where it was supposed to go - namely to to Jorah directly.

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