Advanced Crackpottery - The Mance Enigma

[Dany Girl]

If I appear snippy it's because I disagree with Ran's post which you referred to, & it does piss me off that that particular post keeps being repeated by folks such as yourself because the last time you posted the same comment in another thread & I objected to it, my post disappeared, as I predicted it would, we are being censored in what we are allowed to post.

You can disagree with Ran all you like, but since the dude works with GRRM on the WOIAF book, knows the family trees better than anyone besides GRRM himself, and knows the whole layout of the story, it's pretty silly to do so. Ran is not just some poster, he actually works with the author. That puts his word next to God (GRRM) in terms of truth. When Ran says someone is not someone, it's the same as GRRM saying so.

Peoples posts only get deleted when the mods feel they are out of line, so maybe consider that when your post gets deleted. It's not censorship, it's common decency and respect for other posters.

[Lady Woodland]

You can disagree with Ran all you like, but since the dude works with GRRM on the WOIAF book, knows the family trees better than anyone besides GRRM himself, and knows the whole layout of the story, it's pretty silly to do so. Ran is not just some poster, he actually works with the author. That puts his word next to God (GRRM) in terms of truth. When Ran says someone is not someone, it's the same as GRRM saying so.

Peoples posts only get deleted when the mods feel they are out of line, so maybe consider that when your post gets deleted. It's not censorship, it's common decency and respect for other posters.

Oh my sweet summer child,

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I'll give you an even more explicit one: Mance's helm has raven wings.

I actually do think there might be a Bloodraven-Mance connection, but it doesn't have to be literally based on kinship. I mean, Jon and Sam are connected and work together, but they aren't blood-relations. I think maybe a more lucrative argument might be exploring if and how they could be working together in some way (could Mance be an agent/ disciple of his?) rather than establishing Mance as a hidden Targ.

Thanks for the tip. I'd forgotten the raven wings.

Very possible that BR and Mance are working together.

Interesting theory regarding Mance and Blood Raven connection. I think it could be true. I am always struck by the fact that the LC raven could be speaking of himself..not Jon or Jeor Mormont when he preens, struts and croaks king. This happens several times and I have often wondered if Blood Raven isn't in fact the LC still and also the king beyond the Wall by influencing everyone.

<snip

I love the idea that the raven is asserting BR's claim and authority.

[Mulled Wino]

I like, I like. And I usually hate 90% of the theories on here.

I could see Mance being kin of BR, I'm not up on D&E so I have to revisit after I receive the books.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

There is no proof that Mance of all people, a man who lived North of the Wall for many years, a former Crow, would have any knowledge of Jon's parentage. Ned guarded that secret better than Fort Knox.

Mance is a smart man.

The daughter of Rickard Stark is "kidnapped" by the Prince and Ned Stark goes to rescue her and returns with a bastard? Mmmm... makes sense.

I mean, I know we've discussed a lot that people don't see what they don't expect, and they believe Ned because he's honourable. But at least SOMEONE has to put all the pieces together, even for the sake of the narrative, specially if it's believed that someone might eventually reveal the plot or pieces of it. I can see GRRM using Mace, the wilding, to figure out what many other "clever noblemen" couldn't see.

[Chebyshov]

Oh my sweet summer child,

Seriously?

I mean, I know we've discussed a lot that people don't see what they don't expect, and they believe Ned because he's honourable. But at least SOMEONE has to put all the pieces together, even for the sake of the narrative, specially if it's believed that someone might eventually reveal the plot or pieces of it. I can see GRRM using Mace, the wilding, to figure out what many other "clever noblemen" couldn't see.

I could see this in a way, though we still haven't seen the appearance of a certain elusive character that we know knows the truth beyond the speculation of a wildling.

[Mulled Wino]

Mance is a smart man.

The daughter of Rickard Stark is "kidnapped" by the Prince and Ned Stark goes to rescue her and returns with a bastard? Mmmm... makes sense.

I mean, I know we've discussed a lot that people don't see what they don't expect, and they believe Ned because he's honourable. But at least SOMEONE has to put all the pieces together, even for the sake of the narrative, specially if it's believed that someone might eventually reveal the plot or pieces of it. I can see GRRM using Mace, the wilding, to figure out what many other "clever noblemen" couldn't see.

We know he's gone on intelligence missions before and if he's hooked up with BR as well, it's certainly possible for him to figure it out.

[PrettyPig]

*sips coffee*

I am absolutely convinced that Mance Rayder is far more than an ex-Crow-turned-King, and is somehow linked to the Targaryens. How that plays out remains to be seen.

I'll be interested to see the connection to BR unfold, for sure.

[SerArthurHeath]

We know he's gone on intelligence missions before and if he's hooked up with BR as well, it's certainly possible for him to figure it out.

Especially as he knows all about Bael.

[In A Coat of Gold]

Way too many parallels to Rhaegar. That is the real song of ice and fire.

[In A Coat of Gold]

You can disagree with Ran all you like, but since the dude works with GRRM on the WOIAF book, knows the family trees better than anyone besides GRRM himself, and knows the whole layout of the story, it's pretty silly to do so. Ran is not just some poster, he actually works with the author. That puts his word next to God (GRRM) in terms of truth. When Ran says someone is not someone, it's the same as GRRM saying so.

Peoples posts only get deleted when the mods feel they are out of line, so maybe consider that when your post gets deleted. It's not censorship, it's common decency and respect for other posters.

It is in Ran's best interest to say so as it is a shocking theory.

[Chebyshov]

Don't we know a lot of Mance's history/there'd be Black Brothers who could corroborate it? That he was a wildling raised by the NW, and the whole shadowcat thing? Placing Targ identities on him seem like quite a jump.

[In A Coat of Gold]

Don't we know a lot of Mance's history/there'd be Black Brothers who could corroborate it? That he was a wildling raised by the NW, and the whole shadowcat thing? Placing Targ identities on him seem like quite a jump.

Remember, almost all we know about Mance comes directly from Mance.

[SerArthurHeath]

Don't we know a lot of Mance's history/there'd be Black Brothers who could corroborate it? That he was a wildling raised by the NW, and the whole shadowcat thing? Placing Targ identities on him seem like quite a jump.

Do we know when BR disappears?

[Chebyshov]

Do we know when BR disappears?

Not really. He was sent to the wall in 233 and became LC/served as such for an unspecified time period.

Remember, almost all we know about Mance comes directly from Mance.

That's why I said others (older NW members) should be able to corroborate his story. Like Ser Denys

[Mulled Wino]

Way too many parallels to Rhaegar. That is the real song of ice and fire.

It's not possible timing-wise for him to be Rhaegar.

[Bael's Bastard]

I don't think there is any major fact we know that would immediately rule out the possibility, even if I am not sure how likely it is. There are about 65 years between Bloodraven being sent to the Wall and the beginning of AGOT, and Mance is said to appear to be in his "middle years." So Bloodraven was at the very least in the general "right place" around the general "right time."

[PrettyPig]

Do we know when BR disappears?

BR is too old to BE Mance, if that's what you're implying.

[In A Coat of Gold]

It's not possible timing-wise for him to be Rhaegar.

It's quite possible if you believe that Mance created much of his back story.

[Chebyshov]

BR is too old to BE Mance, if that's what you're implying.

Plus he can't be in a cave and in Winterfell at the same time (or unlikely). But the theory is that BR fathered a child?

Maybe Mance was completely BSing Jon, but when there's people around that still remember Mance in the NW, it seems like lying would be a touch myopic on his part.