Sword of the Morgan Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I've never thought of this before, and it is interesting. Not likely, but certainly not impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassidyaj Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Definitely food for thought. I had always thought that Mance felt he was descended from Bael (hence his wish to sneak into Winterfell as a bard) but this has opened my eyes to new possibilities. Maybe the new book will shed some light on it. It would be interesting to solidify timelines at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 cassidyaj, it can be both. Mance clearly had a Wildling mother who could well have been descended on her mother's side from Bael, and on her father's from the Targaryens. That way Bloodraven never fathered a son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Interesting theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daendrew Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Well Ran shot down the Mance=Rhaegar theory pretty hard ("fucking ridiculous" is the term I believe he used) but this on the other hand could be possible. . Can you please point me to where he said this? I can't find it. Was it in a audio interview or here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falcotron Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Not really. He was sent to the wall in 233 and became LC/served as such for an unspecified time period.TWoIaF says it was 252 AC when he disappeared and was presumed dead. That would make him about 77.If we assume he spent a few years doing other stuff before becoming a tree, that's plenty of time to have a kid,1 who would then be in his mid 40s at the start of AGoT. Or whose kid could be in his late 20s/early 30s. Or, of course, he could have fathered a bastard while still LC, who could then be in his early 50s or have a kid in his late 30s/early 40s. So, whatever age Mance is, he could easily be BR's son or grandson.To me, Mance being Bloodraven's first attempt at finding the Last Greenseer seems more plausible, and BR just seeking him out because the two of them have common cause for a variety of reasons even more so, so just showing that they have a connection doesn't sell me on it being a family connection--but I don't see any reason that the family connection is impossible or should be rejected out of hand.1 Yes, men's fertility does decrease with age, but it's definitely possible for a man in his late 70s to have children, as Tony Randall proves, or half of the families I know from North Carolina. One study showed that men at 70 were 25% as likely to be able to conceive without medical intervention as men at 45, which makes it still well within the range of plausibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OuttaOldtown Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 My thought is why can't Mance just be Mance? Jon asks to speak to the king when he arrived, I think the mistake was not asking to speak to the queen. Every indication I've gotten from rereads is that if anyone has royal blood north of the wall its Dalla & Val, the signs are there.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 25, 2015 Author Share Posted August 25, 2015 Interesting theory. Thanks FSoD! Can you please point me to where he said this? I can't find it. Was it in a audio interview or here? There was a time last year (I think it was) when we were getting two or three Mance is Rhaegar threads each week! They kept getting locked, and then people started threads about the threads getting locked. Finally Ran wrote "Rhaegar Targrayen is fucking dead!" And that is verbatim. Normally Ran doesn't use language like that on here, so it's a sure bet that he was really annoyed and absolutely telling the truth. It'll be on the boards somewhere, but a long ways back, buried by threads that have come up since. TWoIaF says it was 252 AC when he disappeared and was presumed dead. That would make him about 77. If we assume he spent a few years doing other stuff before becoming a tree, that's plenty of time to have a kid,1 who would then be in his mid 40s at the start of AGoT. Or whose kid could be in his late 20s/early 30s. Or, of course, he could have fathered a bastard while still LC, who could then be in his early 50s or have a kid in his late 30s/early 40s. So, whatever age Mance is, he could easily be BR's son or grandson.To me, Mance being Bloodraven's first attempt at finding the Last Greenseer seems more plausible, and BR just seeking him out because the two of them have common cause for a variety of reasons even more so, so just showing that they have a connection doesn't sell me on it being a family connection--but I don't see any reason that the family connection is impossible or should be rejected out of hand.1 Yes, men's fertility does decrease with age, but it's definitely possible for a man in his late 70s to have children, as Tony Randall proves, or half of the families I know from North Carolina. One study showed that men at 70 were 25% as likely to be able to conceive without medical intervention as men at 45, which makes it still well within the range of plausibility. Possible. And since Mance was actually in the area, BR wouldn't necessarily have to put him through the whole "flying" thing and falling on the ice spikes. Unless that's the litmus test... Hard to say. My thought is why can't Mance just be Mance? Jon asks to speak to the king when he arrived, I think the mistake was not asking to speak to the queen. Every indication I've gotten from rereads is that if anyone has royal blood north of the wall its Dalla & Val, the signs are there.. He can. I just came up with this as an antidote to the Mance = Rhaegar plague we had going a while back. And there are a number of symbols that tie Mance to Bloodraven, the strongest of which is the color descriptor that only those two characters have been given. The combination of smoke and scarlet/scarlet and smoke is unique to Bloodraven and Mance. Neither Dalla no Val have any hints toward Targ ancestry, and that was the point of the thread (how Mance keeps getting mistaken for a dead Targ prince). Their royalty would have to come from either Kings of Winter or Kings Beyond the Wall...or Night's King. That's actually something I've seen suggested before, and I'm all for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daendrew Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Lol! "Rhaegar Targaryen is fucking dead!" Rhaegar was blood of the dragon, but now he has fallen in the river. Mance is Rhaegar. Rhaegar is fucking dead. Thus, Mance is fucking dead. It is known. But then who is Euron? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jak Scaletongue Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Also, Ran said that Rhaegar is dead and he's not Mance. that should be the end. It's the closest thing we have to the Author's own word. Yet, some still insisted "well, it's true because Ran didn't want us to speak about it". That would be like saying "no, the author is wrong". I remember the HP times when JKR said "no" about Harry/Hermione. Yet, some insisted that JKR was wrong because she hasn't really understood the relationship between Harry and Hermione. Yes, the AUTHOR of the BOOK, the one who CREATED the characters didn't "get" their relationship. That's being stubborn for the sake of it. It's impossible to debate with people like that. FYI - Not the best example, because JKR herself has stated that she may have been a bit too "gung-ho" for the Ron/Hermione ship to properly see the Harry/Hermione relationship. http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/feb/02/jk-rowling-hermione-harry-ron-married Lady Blizzardborn - I'm liking this! Whether Mance and Bloodraven are related seems irrelevant to me, but I absolutely love the idea that they're working together (or Mance is working for Bloodraven - it's not necessarily an equal partnership)! I'm not a big fan of the "Bloodraven skinchanges everything" idea, so it makes sense to me that he'd need some human help outside his cave along with the animals he can skinchange into. I'm loving all the Advanced Crackpottery! Keep it coming! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 28, 2015 Author Share Posted August 28, 2015 <snip But then who is Euron? Tywin and the Dusky Woman. It is known. :D <snip Lady Blizzardborn - I'm liking this! Whether Mance and Bloodraven are related seems irrelevant to me, but I absolutely love the idea that they're working together (or Mance is working for Bloodraven - it's not necessarily an equal partnership)! I'm not a big fan of the "Bloodraven skinchanges everything" idea, so it makes sense to me that he'd need some human help outside his cave along with the animals he can skinchange into. I'm loving all the Advanced Crackpottery! Keep it coming! Thank you, Jak! I'll post my fourth Advanced Crackpot after the update. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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