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Roddy Darwin

The quest for Daniel Abraham's "particular line of dialog"

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In an interview from September 21st, 2011, Daniel Abraham - who is currently adapting ASOIAF into a great comic book series - said this:





There was one scene I had to rework because there's a particular line of dialog -- and you wouldn't know it to look at -- that's important in the last scene of "A Dream of Spring."


You can probably see where this is going - let's try and find that line of dialog!



What to look for


In the Anne Groell interview topic, Faint proposed this great sum up:




(1) possible foreshadowing of the ending to the story;

(2) both in the books and in one of the initial graphic novels;


and (3) a throw away line




To these three, I'd add:


(4) A line actually said by a character;


(5) In a aGoT, likely early on



(1) and (3) are obvious from the interview; (2) is because Abraham had to put this exact line back in after GRRM himself asked him to.


(4) may seem obvious too, but if you've read the comic books, you know how much "thought" boxes there are. We don't need to look at those.



Where to look


The first issue of the comic book was published the very same month the interview was done. However, we have no idea how far ahead Abraham is in writting the scripts, so it could be from a later issue. In fact, we even know he had a lot written already at the time:





I was already several scripts in when the HBO thing came out

(from the same interview)



So far, only the aGoT adaptation has been confirmed. So we know the line is before the start of aCoK.



The Tyrion angle


In a recent Q&A, GRRM editor Anne Groell revealed that she knows the ending for Bran, and Abraham knows Tyrion's. Could it be because GRRM had to tell him because of that one line? It could be, and so we should give a particular attention to lines said by Tyrion, to Tyrion, or that could somehow be related to Tyrion's ending.



The usual suspects


1. A+J=T




All dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes.

Tyrion to Jon, aGoT 5 (Jon I)



I was never a fan of the Aerys+Joanna=Tyrion theory. And yet, the infamous line fits all five of our criteria, plus it's about Tyrion. It may seem odd that we only get that reveal in the last scene of Dream, though...



2. A dwarf on the Wall?



"My brother Jaime will be wondering what has become of me. He may decide that you have convinced me to take the black."

Tyrion to LC Mormont, aGoT 21 (Tyrion III)


"I think he is a giant come among us, here at the end of the world."

Maester Aemon to the Night's Watch officers, aGoT 21 (Tyrion III)


"And what will you be wanting, this time of night?”

“A last look.”



Night's Watchman and Tyrion, aGoT 21 (Tyrion III)



Those three lines could point out to Tyrion eventually taking the black. I don't think it's that unlikely that this happens in the last scene; his decision/having to take the black could be from earlier on, and we see him saying his vows or something.




3. No one is safe in Planetos. Not even no one.




When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers.

Jon to Arya, aGoT 7 (Arya I)



Many of us got the creeps when reading or rereading this line. Well, guess what five things we could say about it?





And thus our quest begins. I will edit and add any other idea we come up with, as the comic books are released.



PS: As always, sorry if there was already a thread about that. I searched for one, but I'm terrible at searching these boards.


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Note the phrasing here, though: the line was not important for "the ending," but for "the last scene." Something could be important to the last scene of the books that isn't really important to "the ending" in a larger sense (X winds up on the Iron Throne, Y gets Winterfell, the Others are vanquished, etc. etc.). So something could be important in the last scene that really has nothing to do with the epic, earthshaking elements of the books' ending.



With that said, I do think the needle "prophecy" is a strong candidate, because it seems so innocent on its face. Arya turning up dead could be the last scene of ASOIAF even though she's not one of the "big three" (Jon/Dany/Tyrion).



I like the fan speculation that the final POV will be a Bran POV (since the first non-prologue POV was Bran's), so maybe the line in question relates to something which has to do with Bran. On the other hand, if the last Bran POV is a bunch of weirwood visions of various happenings around Westeros--and I think there's a decent chance of that, sort of like the ASOIAF version of a montage--then the last scene might not have anything to do with Bran at all.



I was never a fan of the Aerys+Joanna=Tyrion theory. And yet, the infamous line fits all five of our criteria, plus it's about Tyrion. It may seem odd that we only get that reveal in the last scene of Dream, though...


I'm pretty skeptical about A+J=T myself, but if Tyrion is a Targ bastard, I suspect that information would be revealed long, long, long before the last scene of the books. How would that even read? "LOL Tyrion was a Targ the whole time, THE END."


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Is it definitely a quote and not a thought? Doesn't Tyrion have a thought about Jon's mother passing down nothing of her looks as he looked so much like a Stark (which he assumed came from Ned)? Does this thought appear in the graphic novels as well?

Nevermind, I see now it refers to dialogue.

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Is it definitely a quote and not a thought? Doesn't Tyrion have a thought about Jon's mother passing down nothing of her looks as he looked so much like a Stark (which he assumed came from Ned)? Does this thought appear in the graphic novels as well?

Nevermind, I see now it refers to dialogue.

Even if it didn't, I doubt we're looking for a RLJ clue. Same as Tyrion being a secret targ, I don't think RLJ will only be revealed on the last page.

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It's something about Tyrion - I can simply see no other reason for him to know Tyrion's endgame. I will try to make some guesses later. Are we certain it's from AGOT?


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I hope it's A+J=T. One of the theories I feel is underrated just because people hate the idea. Not that I'm 100% sure, far from it. But I don't think it's crackpot as some seem to suppose.


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I hope it's A+J=T. One of the theories I feel is underrated just because people hate the idea. Not that I'm 100% sure, far from it. But I don't think it's crackpot as some seem to suppose.

I do agree with you to some extent, but I don't think that's what we're looking for, because whether true or not, I think it will be revealed before the final scene of the last book.

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"The Gods give with one hand and take with the other"

Could be a sign of the "bitter sweet" ending .

"All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs.“ And with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune. When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king."

This could be foreshadowing. Specifically the last sentence!

Those are the 2 that come to mind. Nice job with OP tying all of this together. You should think about going into investigative journalism HAR! I hope this forum gets a lot of traffic, I think it's a good topic.

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It's something about Tyrion - I can simply see no other reason for him to know Tyrion's endgame. I will try to make some guesses later. Are we certain it's from AGOT?

Pretty much, yeah. At this point (and even more so at the time of the interview), only the aGoT adaptation has been confirmed.

It's possible GRRM and Abraham got carried away talking about it, and things that should not have been ended up being said, but I think it's highly unlikely. We know Parris herself doesn't know much; after years of being questionned by eager fans he managed never to reveal anything he didn't want to, and Anne Groell tells us she doesn't know anything unless she really has to.

We know he knows Tyrion's ending, but maybe he knows other characters', too. Anne Groell specifically said Tyrion was her favourite character in the interview, so she might have mentionned Tyrion in particular so she could drop the "I'm so jealous" joke.

"The Gods give with one hand and take with the other"

Could be a sign of the "bitter sweet" ending .

This could be it, but would GRRM specifically ask Abraham to put that one line in? There are several such throughout the books, and it's not like he has ever hidden the fact we would get a bittersweet ending.

"All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs.“ And with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune. When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king."

This could be foreshadowing. Specifically the last sentence!

That one, though... Plus it could work pretty well with A+J=T. We get the reveal sooner than in the last scene, and Tyrion ends up on the throne.

The last scene could be his coronoation or him brooding, sitting on the Iron Throne for the first time, or something. A scene that makes his kingship official, sort of.

Or, we could focus on the "just for a moment" part; A+J=T is revealed, and Tyrion gets a very short, Rhaenyra-like reign. The last scene has him die, thus confirming whoever replaced him is going to stay on the Throne. If you'll forgive me a short detour in crackpotterly-land, for some reason I can really see a scenario like this happening:

Tyrion ends up calling himself Aerys' heir and King of the Seven Kingdoms, maybe he actually sits on the Throne. He very quickly ends up thrown in the black cells. In the last scene, he commits suicide.

There would be quite a bit of foreshadowing for this, imo - the blue is calling.

Is the box thought with that last sentence in the comic book, tho? I only have the french translation on hand at the moment, and it's not, but it could have been lost in translation.

Those are the 2 that come to mind. Nice job with OP tying all of this together. You should think about going into investigative journalism HAR! I hope this forum gets a lot of traffic, I think it's a good topic.

Why, thank you. :)

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Dialogue, people, dialogue

Hehe, in this particular case the box thought would be really interesting too, since it comes right after the whole dwarf/bastard thing.

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I don't think it is anything to do with A+J=T because I don't believe in the theory due to distances and whatnot. Even the sperm.of the dragons does not fly :p

I would personally think the Arya line, though I think a look at Bran's chapters and the comic adaptation might be worthwhile. I'm very much of the opinion that this all ends as it began; with Bran Stark

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Btw, scouring Tyrion's early dialogue did yield one gem of a foreshadowing where he jokes about how being born a Lannister spared him the fate of ending up in a "slaver's grotesquerie". That didn't work out to well for him

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A+J=T doesn't work, since the theory is that the mad king slept with Joanna on her wedding night with Tywin, with Tyrion being younger than both Jamie and Cersei... unless we're to believe they had some sort of an affair going on.



Joanna was a Lannister, after all. We all know what they're willing to do to get ahead, so ya never know.


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Wouldn't this also have to be in the show, though? I mean if it's so important to the last scene, one would expect the show to have to use it as well. This leaves out the "clutching needle" theory, as I'm 90% sure that's not said in the show.


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Wouldn't this also have to be in the show, though? I mean if it's so important to the last scene, one would expect the show to have to use it as well. This leaves out the "clutching needle" theory, as I'm 90% sure that's not said in the show.

I don't remember if it's in the books, but I know there's a scene in the show where Tywin is being a dick to Tyrion and says something like "Since I can't prove you're not mine we had to let you live".

A+J=T looking more plausible than ever

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A+J=T doesn't work, since the theory is that the mad king slept with Joanna on her wedding night with Tywin

No. That's not the theory. It would be very silly to suppose Tyrion was the result of Aerys having sex with Joanna on her wedding night.

The wedding liberties thing is one piece of evidence that shows Aerys could have an interest in Joanna. For the theory to work, he would have sex with her years later. Other evidences are Tyrion's hair color, random 'foreshadowing' (like his dragon dreams, the winds of winter chapter etc.), the fact that Joanna died in childbirth (like Lyanna and Rhaella), his recent connection to Essos and dragons etc.

I agree evidence is thin, though I suppose it's enough to make us keep an eye open. IMO it's not really a theory in the full sense, more of a suspicion. Anyway, it's way more serious than Aerys and Joanna fucking on Tywin's wedding night.

I have this gut feeling that Tyrion is indeed a Targ bastard. But I don't claim to be able to prove it. I just think people shouldn't treat the idea as purely crackpot, hehe, it isn't.

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But we know it's about Tyrion, not Arya or Bran.

We don't know that at this point, it's just slightly more likely.

Also, as Newstar pointed out, a Bran chapter as a finale doesn't mean it's about Bran, since by that time he'll probably be able to see much and more.

Btw, scouring Tyrion's early dialogue did yield one gem of a foreshadowing where he jokes about how being born a Lannister spared him the fate of ending up in a "slaver's grotesquerie". That didn't work out to well for him

Hehe, yeah, that's a nice one.

Makes me think, is the line about being thrown down a well show-only? That could fit too... I'll check later today.

ETA: nope, not in the comic books.

A+J=T doesn't work, since the theory is that the mad king slept with Joanna on her wedding night with Tywin, with Tyrion being younger than both Jamie and Cersei... unless we're to believe they had some sort of an affair going on.

Joanna was a Lannister, after all. We all know what they're willing to do to get ahead, so ya never know.

Or Aerys could ride out to her every now and then... Pre-Defiance, that is. I don't think he's the kind of King you'd dare say no to, ambitions or not.

Wouldn't this also have to be in the show, though? I mean if it's so important to the last scene, one would expect the show to have to use it as well. This leaves out the "clutching needle" theory, as I'm 90% sure that's not said in the show.

Meh, we all know what the show ended up being, eh? :P

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No. That's not the theory. It would be very silly to suppose Tyrion was the result of Aerys having sex with Joanna on her wedding night.

The wedding liberties thing is one piece of evidence that shows Aerys could have an interest in Joanna. For the theory to work, he would have sex with her years later. Other evidences are Tyrion's hair color, random 'foreshadowing' (like his dragon dreams, the winds of winter chapter etc.), the fact that Joanna died in childbirth (like Lyanna and Rhaella), his recent connection to Essos and dragons etc.

I agree evidence is thin, though I suppose it's enough to make us keep an eye open. IMO it's not really a theory in the full sense, more of a suspicion. Anyway, it's way more serious than Aerys and Joanna fucking on Tywin's wedding night.

I have this gut feeling that Tyrion is indeed a Targ bastard. But I don't claim to be able to prove it. I just think people shouldn't treat the idea as purely crackpot, hehe, it isn't.

I thought his hair color was just regular Lannister dirty blond? I don't remember anything from the novels about the color, particularly.

This could also explain his dwarfism, among other things. Incest is known to cause physical deformities, after all.

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