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The quest for Daniel Abraham's "particular line of dialog"


Roddy Darwin

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I thought his hair color was just regular Lannister dirty blond? I don't remember anything from the novels about the color, particularly.

This could also explain his dwarfism, among other things. Incest is known to cause physical deformities, after all.

When Jon meets Tyrion: "One green eye and one black one peered out from under a lank fall of hair so blond it seemed white. Jon watched him with fascination."

His hair is paler than Jaime's and Cersei's, closer to Targ hair, not really regular Lannister blonde.

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I'm not sure if it has to be Tyrion-related, but a few somewhat seemingly "throwaway" Tyrion lines, that seem like they could make reasonable sense for the last scene are:




Tyrion to Morm: “My brother Jaime will be wondering what has become of me. He may decide that you have convinced me to take the black.”


Aemon to Tyrion: “I think he is a giant come among us, here at the end of the world.”


Tyrion to Morm: “When I was a boy,” Tyrion replied, “my wet nurse told me that one day, if men were good, the gods would give the world a summer without ending. Perhaps we’ve been better than we thought, and the Great Summer is finally at hand.” He grinned.


Guard: “And what will you be wanting, this time of night?” the one by the winch asked. Tyrion: “A last look [from the Wall].”


Tyrion to Bronn: “Why then, I’ll have one mourner whose grief is sincere,” Tyrion said, grinning. “The gold ends when I do.”


Tyrion to Robb: “If you are a lord, you might learn a lord’s courtesy,” the little man replied, ignoring the sword point in his face. “Your bastard brother has all your father’s graces, it would seem.”


Tyrion to Bran: “You will,” the dwarf told him. “And I swear to you, boy, on horseback you will be as tall as any of them.”



ETA: I really don't think anything A+J =T related makes any sense for the last scene of the series.

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I thought his hair color was just regular Lannister dirty blond? I don't remember anything from the novels about the color, particularly.

This could also explain his dwarfism, among other things. Incest is known to cause physical deformities, after all.

Tyrion's hair is actually white blond, shot through with black: "Strands of hair, pale blond and black, clung to his brow." It's also straight (well, "lank"), unlike the other Lannisters' curly hair. The white blond is not all that notable: Tommen is described as having white blond hair as well. It's the black part that's weird, since both Tywin and Joanna were typical Lannister blondes, and there are no dark-haired blooded Lannisters to speak of.

I don't know how important it is, since TV Tyrion has typical Lannister golden, curly hair, but Book Tyrion definitely does not. It's also a detail that's often forgotten: official art like commissioned calendars and Amok's portraits and the like do not depict Tyrion as having any black in his hair. However, he does in the books.

As for butterbumps' suggestions, which are good ones, I have to say that I do think that the line in question will be from much earlier in AGOT, though. The interview in question dates from September 2011, when the first issue of the adaptation was released. I doubt Daniel Abraham would have completed scripts that far into AGOT prior to September 2011 for GRRM to tell him that a line of dialogue he omitted should be put back in. Volume 3 which was only recently published in compiled hardcover form is only now covering Tyrion's trial. I think if we're looking for a throwaway line relating to Tyrion, it would be from Tyrion's first conversation with Jon or something similarly early.
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I wonder if there are any grown Lannisters with white blond hair, then. Because it's common for children's hair to get darker as they mature. Tommen being the youngest Lannister could explain the white blond hair, but that wouldn't work for Tyrion. And IIRC, Tommen's hair is later described to have regular Lannister golden curls.




But yes, the black/white blond hair thing is pretty weird. I don't even really know exactly how Tyrion's hair should look.


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Aemon to Tyrion: “I think he is a giant come among us, here at the end of the world.”

Tyrion to Morm: “When I was a boy,” Tyrion replied, “my wet nurse told me that one day, if men were good, the gods would give the world a summer without ending. Perhaps we’ve been better than we thought, and the Great Summer is finally at hand.” He grinned.

Guard: “And what will you be wanting, this time of night?” the one by the winch asked. Tyrion: “A last look [from the Wall].”

Tyrion to Bronn: “Why then, I’ll have one mourner whose grief is sincere,” Tyrion said, grinning. “The gold ends when I do.”

Tyrion to Robb: “If you are a lord, you might learn a lord’s courtesy,” the little man replied, ignoring the sword point in his face. “Your bastard brother has all your father’s graces, it would seem.”

Tyrion to Bran: “You will,” the dwarf told him. “And I swear to you, boy, on horseback you will be as tall as any of them.”

These are good points. I do think that the line in question will be from much earlier in AGOT, though. The interview in question dates from September 2011, when the first issue of the adaptation was released. I doubt Daniel Abraham would have completed scripts that far into AGOT in September 2011 for GRRM to tell him that a line of dialogue he omitted should be put back in. Volume 3 which was only recently published in compiled hardcover form is only now covering Tyrion's trial. I think if we're looking for a throwaway line relating to Tyrion, it would be from Tyrion's first conversation with Jon or something similarly early.

The bolded ones take place by chapter 25 of 73. They're all about from a 1/3 of the way or earlier. Only the Bronn one takes place after the trial.

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I'm not sure if it has to be Tyrion-related, but a few somewhat seemingly "throwaway" Tyrion lines, that seem like they could make reasonable sense for the last scene are:

Tyrion to Morm: “My brother Jaime will be wondering what has become of me. He may decide that you have convinced me to take the black.”

Aemon to Tyrion: “I think he is a giant come among us, here at the end of the world.”

Tyrion to Morm: “When I was a boy,” Tyrion replied, “my wet nurse told me that one day, if men were good, the gods would give the world a summer without ending. Perhaps we’ve been better than we thought, and the Great Summer is finally at hand.” He grinned.

Guard: “And what will you be wanting, this time of night?” the one by the winch asked. Tyrion: “A last look [from the Wall].”

Tyrion to Bronn: “Why then, I’ll have one mourner whose grief is sincere,” Tyrion said, grinning. “The gold ends when I do.”

Tyrion to Robb: “If you are a lord, you might learn a lord’s courtesy,” the little man replied, ignoring the sword point in his face. “Your bastard brother has all your father’s graces, it would seem.”

Tyrion to Bran: “You will,” the dwarf told him. “And I swear to you, boy, on horseback you will be as tall as any of them.”

ETA: I really don't think anything A+J =T related makes any sense for the last scene of the series.

Nice, butterbumps! Some of these really are a perfect fit.

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I wonder if there are any grown Lannisters with white blond hair, then. Because it's common for children's hair to get darker as they mature. Tommen being the youngest Lannister could explain the white blond hair, but that wouldn't work for Tyrion. And IIRC, Tommen's hair is later described to have regular Lannister golden curls.

But yes, the black/white blond hair thing is pretty weird. I don't even really know exactly how Tyrion's hair should look.

It seems to be inconsistent, since I was sure at one point that Tyrion only had black hair in his beard, but the ADWD quote about strands of "black" hair clinging to Tyrion's brow seems to state otherwise.

Again, I don't know how significant it is--and I'm not sold on A+J=T at all--but it does set him apart from the other Lannisters, who are (to a one) blonde.

The bolded ones take place by chapter 25 of 73. They're all about from a 1/3 of the way or earlier. Only the Bronn one takes place after the trial.

It's not that far into AGOT, I agree, but it would be quite a ways into the adaptation, especially for a specific line of dialogue that would have been written for a script prior to September 2011. The series is being adapted for comics at a glacial pace, so I think we're looking for something that would have happened very, very early on.

I'm wondering if GRRM had a similar chat with D&D about the pilot. I know he gives them notes on episodes after they air and warns them about leaving out important things--although they don't always listen to him--but I wonder if that applied to the pilot (which they rewrote, after all). The line in question might take place in material occurring beyond the pilot, but again, I think it would have to happen very early on for the reasons I've stated.

Assuming GRRM would have told D&D what he told Abraham about the line in question (and assuming they listened to him, which they don't necessarily do), then we'd be looking for a line of dialogue that's both in the comic book and in the show. That would narrow it down considerably. Jon's "prophecy" about Arya being found dead in the snow did not make it into the show, for one.

ETA: I really don't think anything A+J =T related makes any sense for the last scene of the series.
Agreed. If it's a thing, and I doubt very much that it's a thing, it will come up well before the last scene.
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It's not that far into AGOT, I agree, but it would be quite a ways into the adaptation, especially for a specific line of dialogue that would have been written for a script prior to September 2011. The series is being adapted for comics at a glacial pace, so I think we're looking for something that would have happened very, very early on.

I'm wondering if GRRM had a similar chat with D&D about the pilot. I know he gives them notes on episodes after they air and warns them about leaving out important things--although they don't always listen to him--but I wonder if that applied to the pilot (which they rewrote, after all). The line in question might take place in material occurring beyond the pilot, but again, I think it would have to happen very early on for the reasons I've stated.

Assuming GRRM would have told D&D what he told Abraham about the line in question (and assuming they listened to him, which they don't necessarily do), then we'd be looking for a line of dialogue that's both in the comic book and in the show. That would narrow it down considerably.

I'm not sure if I understand what the writing timeline is, as well as whether each ASOIAF chapter becomes its own comic chapter. Is the comic literally going through each POV by POV? And is the glacial pace indicative of keeping everything as literally true to the text, and therefore, very early into the story? If not, then there's a lot of simultaneous scenes early on that might be merged, or POVs extended. Limiting this to the first couple of chapters, especially if pertinent to Tyrion, might be too restrictive.

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Each issue has several book chapters in it, but they do keep the book POVs.


A volume is published every few months. The first one went from the Prologue to Cat's decision to leave for KL, the second ends with Ned fiding Gendry, the third with Ned holding Jory's body.


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I'm not sure if I understand what the writing timeline is, as well as whether each ASOIAF chapter becomes its own comic chapter. Is the comic literally going through each POV by POV? And is the glacial pace indicative of keeping everything as literally true to the text, and therefore, very early into the story? If not, then there's a lot of simultaneous scenes early on that might be merged, or POVs extended. Limiting this to the first couple of chapters, especially if pertinent to Tyrion, might be too restrictive.

Well, I read in an interview that Daniel Abraham has it all planned out in terms of outlines and the number of planned issues to cover the book. I just don't think that he had written detailed scripts for the adaptation that far in advance by September 2011, when the issues first started being released and when he mentioned that GRRM had mentioned that a line of dialogue came into play for the last scene, or however it was phrased.

I'm not convinced the line has anything to do with Tyrion's endgame, or that Daniel Abraham's statement about the line of dialogue and Abraham knowing Tyrion's endgame have anything to do with one another. Tyrion will likely be dead long before the last scene rolls around. If we're looking for something that's relevant to the last scene of ASOIAF, we should start with Bran, who will likely be the last POV in ASOIAF, just as he was the first (non-prologue) POV.

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Each issue has several book chapters in it, but they do keep the book POVs.

A volume is published every few months. The first one went from the Prologue to Cat's decision to leave for KL, the second ends with Ned fiding Gendry, the third with Ned holding Jory's body.

oh ok, thanks. So the ones I'd bolded from my list would fall under the second volume.

Maybe here's a better question. Are we looking for a line in an issue of this that's already been published? Like, is this the sort of thing that someone who actually owns the comics could better answer, or is this about a volume that hasn't come out yet?

Well, I read in an interview that Daniel Abraham has it all planned out in terms of outlines and the number of planned issues to cover the book. I just don't think that he had written detailed scripts for the adaptation that far in advance by September 2011, when the issues first started being released and when he mentioned that GRRM had mentioned that a line of dialogue came into play for the last scene, or however it was phrased.

I'm not convinced the line has anything to do with Tyrion's endgame, or that Daniel Abraham's statement about the line of dialogue and Abraham knowing Tyrion's endgame have anything to do with one another. Tyrion will likely be dead long before the last scene rolls around. If we're looking for something that's relevant to the last scene of ASOIAF, we should start with Bran, who will likely be the last POV in ASOIAF, just as he was the first (non-prologue) POV.

Do you happen to have a detailed idea of Abraham's production process? I'm genuinely curious. Whether he designs via script or storyboard could make a difference. If he showed Martin a really early storyboard that precluded the possibility for the line to fit within the cells he'd mocked up, and that's what his revision entailed, it might mean that whatever this is comes from a much later part of the story, if we accept that he finalizes the script portion at a much slower rate.

My instinct for "final scene" was always Bran as well. If so, then whoever has the comics can maybe tell us the answer to this question lol.

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Just went through my frog-eating version of the comic books. The following suggestions from butterbumps are in it:





"My brother Jaime will be wondering what has become of me. He may decide that you have convinced me to take the black."

Tyrion to LC Mormont, aGoT 21 (Tyrion III)





"I think he is a giant come among us, here at the end of the world."

Maester Aemon to the Night's Watch officers, aGoT 21 (Tyrion III)



The line about the Great Summer was cut, Tyrion doesn't reply to Mormont's line about long winters following long summers.





"And what will you be wanting, this time of night?”

“A last look.”



Night's Watchman and Tyrion, aGoT 21 (Tyrion III)



The last we see of Tyrion in the comic book so far is Bronn's accepting to champion him, so the last three haven't had a chance to appear yet.




ETA:






Maybe here's a better question. Are we looking for a line in an issue of this that's already been published? Like, is this the sort of thing that someone who actually owns the comics could better answer, or is this about a volume that hasn't come out yet?




We definitely want to look at the published issues first, but as said in the OP, there really is no way to know for sure how many scripts Abraham had already written at the time of the interview. So it could also be from a yet-to-be published issue, altough as Newstar said, the farther down aGoT we go, the less likely it is Abraham had it adapted already in september 2011.


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oh ok, thanks. So the ones I'd bolded from my list would fall under the second volume.

Maybe here's a better question. Are we looking for a line in an issue of this that's already been published? Like, is this the sort of thing that someone who actually owns the comics could better answer, or is this about a volume that hasn't come out yet?

It's almost certain that the line is from an issue that's already been published. The interview where Daniel Abraham references a particular line of dialogue, etc. etc. is from September 2011, when the first issue of the adaptation was released. That means that by September 2011, GRRM would have had to have seen a completed script for the issue in question to weigh in on the line's omission. Unless Daniel Abraham had completed and submitted multiple scripts to GRRM prior to September 2011, then it's very likely that the script in question is from very early on in the adaptation, which is very very early on in AGOT.

TLDR: yes, we're looking for a line of an issue that's already been published.

The other thing to bear in mind is that the line in question comes into play for the "last scene." Not the ending in a broader sense, but the "last scene." The lines butterbumps referenced could very well foreshadow elements of the ending, but they're unlikely to provide the foundation for the last scene. Tyrion taking the black is unlikely to be the last scene; it could happen, but it's unlikely to be the last scene. Unless Tyrion is going to morph into a giant, Godzilla-style, in the closing words of ADOS, the giant line is also unlikely to play into the last scene. Ditto for anything involving R+L=J, Jon being a king, who will occupy the Iron Throne, etc. etc.: anything like that will come into play well before the last scene. The last scene could very well have nothing to do with any of the major characters' endgames at all; it could be something more epic relating to Westeros as a whole (which is why the "great summer" line would have worked, had it made it into the adaptation).

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Tyrion taking the black is unlikely to be the last scene; it could happen, but it's unlikely to be the last scene. Unless Tyrion is going to morph into a giant, Godzilla-style, in the closing words of ADOS, the giant line is also unlikely to play into the last scene. Ditto for anything involving R+L=J, Jon being a king, who will occupy the Iron Throne, etc. etc.: anything like that will come into play well before the last scene.

I absolutely agree on RLJ-things being irrelevant because of an earlier reveal, and that's also what bothers me with the AJT lines. I don't think Tyrion taking the black is as unlikely to happen in the very last scene, though. Even if his decision or his being forced to take the black happens much sooner, his global ark could end with him saying his vows?

And if for some reason he did it at the weirwood grove, that works pretty well with your theory regarding the last chapter being Bran watching several different characters.

Also, re: which issues we want to be looking at, keep in mind Abraham did say

I was already several scripts in when the HBO thing came out

I still think we should keep an eye out for later issues, altough I agree the earlier on, the more likely it's what we're looking for.

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Just went through my frog-eating version of the comic books. The following suggestions from butterbumps are in it:

Tyrion to LC Mormont, aGoT 21 (Tyrion III)

Maester Aemon to the Night's Watch officers, aGoT 21 (Tyrion III)

The line about the Great Summer was cut, Tyrion doesn't reply to Mormont's line about long winters following long summers.

Night's Watchman and Tyrion, aGoT 21 (Tyrion III)

The last we see of Tyrion in the comic book so far is Bronn's accepting to champion him, so the last three haven't had a chance to appear yet.

ETA:

We definitely want to look at the published issues first, but as said in the OP, there really is no way to know for sure how many scripts Abraham had already written at the time of the interview. So it could also be from a yet-to-be published issue, altough as Newstar said, the farther down aGoT we go, the less likely it is Abraham had it adapted already in september 2011.

Out of interest, what are the Bran lines? I don't think the lines about bravery, headsmen, or looking into a man's eyes are throwaway quotes, so what might be between them? I'd think it has to be way more subtle than that (and for this reason, the line about Needle to Arya doesn't seem understated enough, imo).

ETA: Is the line about how it's better for a quick death than suffer cold and starvation in there?

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The thing about Tyrion taking the black is that it's referenced at several instances in the series: "I hope you're not thinking of taking the black on us," for one. I don't know why that particular line butterbumps mentioned about taking the black would be the sine qua non that would figure into the last scene. Ditto for anything else referenced several times in different ways: R+L=J, e.g.



I think we're looking for something that isn't specifically referenced anywhere else: Jon's "prophecy" about Arya would fit. There are other potential references to Arya dying young, but none about her being found dead in the snow.





I still think we should keep an eye out for later issues, altough I agree the earlier on, the more likely it's what we're looking for.


Good catch. Maybe it's not as early on as I thought.


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The other thing to bear in mind is that the line in question comes into play for the "last scene." Not the ending in a broader sense, but the "last scene." The lines butterbumps referenced could very well foreshadow elements of the ending, but they're unlikely to provide the foundation for the last scene. Tyrion taking the black is unlikely to be the last scene; it could happen, but it's unlikely to be the last scene. Unless Tyrion is going to morph into a giant, Godzilla-style, in the closing words of ADOS, the giant line is also unlikely to play into the last scene. Ditto for anything involving R+L=J, Jon being a king, who will occupy the Iron Throne, etc. etc.: anything like that will come into play well before the last scene. The last scene could very well have nothing to do with any of the major characters' endgames at all; it could be something more epic relating to Westeros as a whole (which is why the "great summer" line would have worked, had it made it into the adaptation).

Not necessarily. "Last scene" =/= "last lines" of the series. If, for argument's sake, Tyrion is the final POV, and the line by Aemon is the one that matters here, his reflecting back on Aemon's words there might be important (and Varys says something similar to him, and then Moqorro has a slant on it as well). Tyrion's been the one character in the middle of everything, the "snarling shadow," so I could see an argument for Tyrion's eyes being the ones to close the series provided he lives.

I agree, though, that nothing in this final scene is going to be revelatory, and the line probably needs a broader significance.

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Out of interest, what are the Bran lines? I don't think the lines about bravery, headsmen, or looking into a man's eyes are throwaway quotes, so what might be between them? I'd think it has to be way more subtle than that (and for this reason, the line about Needle to Arya doesn't seem understated enough, imo).

ETA: Is the line about how it's better for a quick death than suffer cold and starvation in there?

The dialog between Ned and Bran after the beheading is almost unchanged. Assuming nothing was lost in translation, all the following are there:

"Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?" "That is the only time a man can be brave"

"the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night's Watch. No man is more dangerous." (His explanation about why that is has been cut, though.)

The part where Bran says King Bob has a headsman was cut. Ned goes straight from "The question was not why the man had to die, but why I had to do it." to "If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into into his eyes and hear his final words.", then straight to the lines about his being Robb's bannerman. Any mention of a headsman is missing in that part too, in the french version at least. He does say "When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away."

And, yes, the line about starvation is there.

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